POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 11

[grazman 6,451]

1. Whether we won or lost it makes no difference. A kick here or there represents no discernible differential.

2. He's too negative about our past and this has to have some rub off on the players. He's always talking about where we've been.

1. I agree. Whether the Saints win more games than us this year is neither here nor there. Would have been nice for us to win, but we still have too many poor decision makers.

2. This I disagree with - he's the coach he would know, we're simply assuming/conjecturing reasons that it must be the coaching that we're stilll scheizen. Is it an excuse or explanation - he's been consistent with it - are we simply shooting the messenger? If you have recruited and developed as poorly as we have over the years then it must leave some tell-tale scars -for example Grimes in perfect position at CHB switches wide to HO rather than move the ball in the V. There's some very poor traits in some of our players (that new guys like Hogan, Bradshaw, ANB etc don't display). I think Roos is doing very well, he's trying to teach the players to win for now although this is subordinate to playing the style that he wants them to play. David King made the observation at half time that we are very good at scoring from structured sequences. The fast pace frenetic style doesn't suit our game plan. I think Roos can see what's coming - the abolition of the sub and a reduction of the interchange cap to 100 - which will result in more stoppages/structure. I think he's doing alright - maybe not in what we can see now, but in 2-3 years time. Saints Best players were: Montagna, Riewoldt, Newnes, Armitage, Weller. and ours were Hogan, Jones, Vince, Viney, Toumpas so in 3 years time tell me who the winner will be?

Edited June 14, 2015 by grazman

[Vandenberger With The Lot 220]

Sorry, but ridiculous post, ridiculous comments, and not even accurate. Though you're not Robinson Crusoe.

We "got in front" with 40 seconds to go. Roos sent out the message, but that's not the point - he shouldn't even have to, the players should know what to do - and probably do. But as always with Melbourne, they don't do what they should do, and don't do what they're instructed to do.

But as I posted on another thread, we should never have been defending a 4 point lead with 40 seconds to go - we had our chances, and we gave St Kilda plenty. The fault lies in poor decisions and poor execution when the decisions were correct. Mitchie and Riley in particular are liabilities in this regard. I'd love to see those "marks from opposition kicks" and "scores from turnovers" stats - we must be leading them across the AFL.

100% agree with this.

As gut wrenching as it is to lose the game in that fashion, our fourth quarter we looked like a team who was afraid of losing, not like a team who wanted to win. So many wasted opportunities in the fourth.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Raul Poos

[Fork 'em 6,508]

This and many other posts that are on this page is what is wrong with this forum. Too many people ready to pot all and sundry and not realise that we were very competitive with a team at our level and as much by bad luck as bad play we lost tonight. Hogan playing on becomes a goal and we win, The ball bounces to us in the dying seconds instead of taking a warnie type turn we win. I am not bothering to check in for a while. It is sad. I read a few other forums and quite honestly this is often the worst. I reckon some on here would eat their own. I am sure glad I don't work for you. Players have good and bad days. How many of you can say you are perfect at your job all day every day? Yet that's the expectation on here.

You reakon we could expect more good days than bad?

I'm glad you don't work for me.

And if you did , you wouldn't for long.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Turn it up. Do you think it's a totally foreign concept to them. Do you think this is the first time they've been confronted with this situation given most of them have been playing footy since they were 5 ? Do you think they've not had to defend before ? Do you want Roos to send out a message for each possession so they know whether to kick or handball ? Jesus wept

This is on the players. And you could see it coming. As soon as I saw them all bouncing around Howe & celebrating like they'd won the World Cup, I knew they'd forgotten the game was still on & I knew we were [censored].

And I was pretty damn sure it would be Steven getting the centre clearance

100% on the players and the leaders should take responsibility

Look, I don't disagree, but I don't think we can just blame the players forever. There has to be some accountability from the top, who picks the players, recruits the players, works with the players every week

[Bang Bang Bang 5,461]

If it was a short quarter, then surely the coaches would have sent the runner out screaming and shouting as Howe was lining up for goal. It would seem like they didn't do it. Maybe Roos should be blamed for the lack of foresight. No good shouting into the phone when the goal has already been kicked.

[beelzebub 22,225]

While most may say that Roos isn't at fault, if his players aren't listening to him and/or they don't know how to setup when the game's on the line then his coaching has to be at least questioned. It's his job to make sure this doesn't happen.

this

Something's not getting thROO

It's his job that it does.......it isn't.....even yelling fown a phone...it isn't.

Why ?

[Seraph 1,714]

If it was a short quarter, then surely the coaches would have sent the runner out screaming and shouting as Howe was lining up for goal. It would seem like they didn't do it. Maybe Roos should be blamed for the lack of foresight. No good shouting into the phone when the goal has already been kicked.

Apparently he was already out there delivering a message, maybe the coaches didn't realise how long was left either.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Absolutely heart breaking stuff. As a club we still make silly errors that no other team, bar Carlton, would make and it's so hard to watch. However...

If we choose to look at the positives there is plenty to find. Jimmy Toumpas' best game for the club. Jesse Hogan kicks 5 goals. Viney blankets Steven. Brayshaw smashing tackles. Dom Tyson's last quarter where he ran his guts out. Our backline standing up under immense pressure in the last quarter. Big Max, apart from dropping a few marks, showing that he CAN be the number 1 ruckman at the club (and some of his tap work is sublime). Bernie once again showing he was an excellent acquisition. Howe's ripping second half. Watts backing up from last week with a terrific performance and some wonderful skills.

Yes, we had players who struggled but with the injuries it's something we just have to swallow. Riley and Michie, along with M. Jones and Bail, aren't the future. Stretch and Neal-Bullen, still a way off AFL pace, will be better for the run at this level.

Tough loss to swallow but we've come along way. We needed better leadership but I feel as though someone like Nathan Jones will learn from today's game. We need to be better in those situations.

Bring on the handbaggers next week.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

If it was a short quarter, then surely the coaches would have sent the runner out screaming and shouting as Howe was lining up for goal. It would seem like they didn't do it. Maybe Roos should be blamed for the lack of foresight. No good shouting into the phone when the goal has already been kicked.

Well, Roos is taking responsibility and Vince thought there were several minutes left on the clock http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-06-14/communication-breakdown-cost-dees-in-final-seconds?utm_medium=RSS

[demon-4-life 467]

Relax relax relax.

This year we've been in positions to win against: GWS, Adelaide, Port, Collingwood, St Kilda.

That has us in positions to win, or have won 8 out of 11 games. There are still 11 games to go in the season. Assuming we are in positions to win 8/11 remaining, puts us up to winning 16 out of 22 games in a season.

Some of us have short memories. When was the last season we've been able to win, let alone get close to 16 out of 22 games?

Last year was purely bridging the gap and trying to repair some mental demons. (pardon the pun)

This year is purely getting us to play so we get into positions to win. (we haven't been there for so long, so we don't know how to)

Next year will be about winning 50/75% of those winnable games.

Just remember, there is so much to take out of this game.

• I've never seen a better game out of Watts
• I've never seen a better game out of Toumpas
• Gawn, while dropped marks, looks like something
• Grimes looked the most confident I've seen him in about 2 years
• Hogan.
• Viney continues to improve
• Brayshaw.
• While not great games for Stretch and ANB, they'll be better for the run.
• Petracca, Trengove, Kent, Salem, JKH still to improve, break into this side.

So now that the emotion of the heartbreak loss has subsided, lets reflect and be grateful. We are in such a better place then we were pre Roos era.

[jnrmac 18,980]

What has happened to Lynden Dunn? OMG he is 1/3 of the player he was last year.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Also - I don't know if this has been mentioned in the thread already, but something has to be done about our kick ins. They are bloody atrocious. We might spot up the odd player once every so often, but our strategy continues to be Dunn chipping it to himself, running a bit and then kicking it to about 60m out on the boundary. More often than not the ball came straight back in and we were under pressure again.

Surely, after all this time, we can work on doing something else? The Saints, on numerous occasions, kicked out to free players who then ran and set up play further down the field. I'm loathe to be critical but we are SO predictable in this area. I'd rather see Dunn just boot it up the guts with a torpedo than do what he is now as it's clearly not working.

[bing181 8,167]

Not having a go and don't want to add to the toump bashing but he got caught napping.

Check the vid: Toumpas goes to tackle Lonie as he runs pass and bandpasses to Stevens - which effectively frees up Montagna. Viney was running in behind, and should have realised what was going on, but let Montagna run straight past.

They'll both learn.

Of course, a) the ball should never have been down there in the first place, it should have been tied up in the centre square and b) the St Kilda forward line should have been so clogged up with Melbourne players, there should never have been space for Montagna or Stevens or whoever to run anywhere.

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

Michie played 29% of the game. Yes made two clangers BUT was one of only two that I could make out that went down back after we hit the front. Against Richmond he was gushed over, has not really put a foot wrong in his games except today. He is still one of our best disposers.

It's all about impact as the sub and his 29% of game time was the worst of any on the ground. Not that he doesn't have potential and I do not like to bury players but I honestly think he is not up to it. He is a A grade VFL player but he is yet to show consistently that he is of an AFL standard.

His disposal is not great at all, it's his effort around the ground that is usually pretty good.

I think we saw the last game of AFL Michie will play for a while, but who knows.

[jnrmac 18,980]

Relax relax relax.

This year we've been in positions to win against: GWS, Adelaide, Port, Collingwood, St Kilda.

That has us in positions to win, or have won 8 out of 11 games. There are still 11 games to go in the season. Assuming we are in positions to win 8/11 remaining, puts us up to winning 16 out of 22 games in a season.

Some of us have short memories. When was the last season we've been able to win, let alone get close to 16 out of 22 games?

Last year was purely bridging the gap and trying to repair some mental demons. (pardon the pun)

This year is purely getting us to play so we get into positions to win. (we haven't been there for so long, so we don't know how to)

Next year will be about winning 50/75% of those winnable games.

Just remember, there is so much to take out of this game.

• I've never seen a better game out of Watts
• I've never seen a better game out of Toumpas
• Gawn, while dropped marks, looks like something
• Grimes looked the most confident I've seen him in about 2 years
• Hogan.
• Viney continues to improve
• Brayshaw.
• While not great games for Stretch and ANB, they'll be better for the run.
• Petracca, Trengove, Kent, Salem, JKH still to improve, break into this side.

So now that the emotion of the heartbreak loss has subsided, lets reflect and be grateful. We are in such a better place then we were pre Roos era.

Take your positivity and shove it. We were awful. Even if we had won it was nothing to be happy or proud of.

[olisik 4,060]

What has happened to Lynden Dunn? OMG he is 1/3 of the player he was last year.

Nothing's wrong with Dunn, he was the one who started the play which led to Hogans shot at goal in the last quarter by taking a courageous mark.

[jnrmac 18,980]

It's all about impact as the sub and his 29% of game time was the worst of any on the ground. Not that he doesn't have potential and I do not like to bury players but I honestly think he is not up to it. He is a A grade VFL player but he is yet to show consistently that he is of an AFL standard.

His disposal is not great at all, it's his effort around the ground that is usually pretty good.

I think we saw the last game of AFL Michie will play for a while, but who knows.

Roos doesn't have clue how to use the sub rule effectively.

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Take your positivity and shove it. We were awful. Even if we had won it was nothing to be happy or proud of.

Take your negativity and shove it.

Add something constructive jnr or let it go. We all see it differently.

[CBDees 3,162]

Leading in sixteen matches is different to winning sixteen matches. Perhaps you might likewise revisit this post?

[Moonshadow 16,211]

I said it after the Collingwood game but everyone jumped on me cos he had a good game, but he makes himself small in ruck contests and marking contests. He bends his knees too much and tries to come up rather than stand tall. I'm not sure if that's from lack of confidence in his knees, but he needs to literally stand up.

Max regularly gets into good position in a marking contest but cannot finish the mark. You are right, he isn't using his height to full advantage. This week and last I've noticed he gets into position well and cannot take it, despite getting clean hands onto the pill. Too much juggling or just slipping through. He should be swallowing up those marks consistently every game. Even the last mark he took today on the half fwd boundary to handball off to Jones(?) was fumbled and taken clumsily. Sandi just stands tall and takes clean, one grab marks, Big Cox used to do the same. I know that Gawn is still learning his trade, but 3 marks this week and 1 last week is not good enough for the tallest player on the ground. And it's not just him, Spencil and Jamar can't mark either. Incidently, I noticed that Steph Martin took a lazy 7 marks last week in a losing side. Sigh.....

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Paul Roos is 99% to blame today

We get in front with minutes to go. He doesn't put Jones in the guts. He doesn't put 3 extra back. He does sweet [censored] all.

This team is a joke. I've had a gutful.

True, but as captain Jones should've instinctively gone to the contest himself

[bing181 8,167]

A game lost at selection. We needed at least one more tall, probably Fitzpatrick.

Perhaps, but Fitzpatrick was withdrawn/unavailable due to an injury (described as a "niggle").

Frost would have been handy - or Garland. Or Salem down back.

Injuries hurting us more than some are admitting, we just don't have the depth to cover +/- 25% of the players being unavailable. Garry Lyon article was spot on.

[titan_uranus 22,366]

Most of those were handpasses under pressure to teammates under pressure.

True, and I think the time in possession statistic would say more about the tackle discrepancy, but the point is still valid(-ish).

Nothing's wrong with Dunn, he was the one who started the play which led to Hogans shot at goal in the last quarter by taking a courageous mark.

You continually berate Toumpas for being soft. Did you see Dunn's 'effort' which led to the Lonie goal in the second quarter? The exact sort of effort you'd castigate Toumpas (or Watts) for.

I agree that mark was a good one, standing up when we needed it, but the rest of his game, and season to date, has been sub-standard, especially given he set the bar so much higher last year.

[Go the Biff 3,132]

What has happened to Lynden Dunn? OMG he is 1/3 of the player he was last year.

I'm no fan of Dunn but he took on an in-form Josh Bruce & made him a non-factor today

[Scoop Junior 2,963]

You know you're a Melbourne supporter when instead of celebrating kicking what should be a match-winning goal with 40 seconds left, you are panicking inside as you know only Melbourne could lose the game from there.

But even with this pessimism that is ingrained in every true Melbourne fan, I still could not in my wildest dreams believe what was about to happen.

If you lose a game from a centre bounce with 40 seconds left, it should only happen one way. A hacked mongrel kick out of the centre following a pub brawl at ground level, which is then followed by one of the best contested marks you would ever see amongst a pack of 20 players. Any football team, professional or not, would at least force the opposition to perform such a freakish play to win the game.

What do we do? We let them walk the ball out of the centre clearance. Yes, WALK IT OUT. No defensive sweeper. No ground level pressure. No one diving on the ball. Once Steven kicked it forward I expected to see a wall of white players clogging up space. Astonishingly, it's man on man. Yes, MAN ON MAN. Would an under 9s team let that happen? I doubt it. Then, after another kick towards the goal square, we have no one dive on the ball or force it out. We let the ball bounce towards goal. And then, to top it all off, we leave the goal square unattended and wide open, allowing Montagna to stroll in ON HIS OWN to kick the open goal. Yes, an OPEN GOAL with 20 seconds left!

There are many other things to discuss about this game. Some positive individual performances from younger players and, more negatively, the fact that St Kilda looked the better and more organised side for larger chunks of the game.

But I simply cannot comprehend that last 40 seconds and the way we allowed them to kick that goal. Not just that we gave up the goal - we've seen Melbourne lose in the last minute many times - but the way they kicked the goal, completely open and uncontested right from the centre bounce. Astonishing.

As for whose fault it was, it all depends on whether the players knew there was 40 seconds left. As it was a short quarter, they may have thought there were 2-3 minutes left. If so, then it's clearly a coaching staff error. They should have ensured that the players knew there were only a few minutes left so that if we got a late goal (which we did), we could then flood the backline. In this day and age it would be a monumental coaching staff error not to ensure players knew how long was left in a tight game.

If the players did know there were 40 seconds left, which I find hard to believe, then they are incredibly stupid and it's their fault. Roos cannot expect to get a message across in such a short space of time. The onus is on the leaders need to ensure the team is set up.