THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[jnrmac 19,327]

Yes they were advantage, but disagree they are as much to fault. Fact is the AFL training told them to check anything through their club doctor. This was done through the club. They were screwed by a club administration that would do "whatever it takes", the club should be punished to the max not the players IMO

Bruce Reid was suppoedly on the outer. And then he write the infamous self-serving 'dog ate my homework' letter to the board that noone claims receiving

But they didnt.

They went across the road and got injected at the local clinic.

This

and what about all the wada training, when the athlete is told he has ultimate personal responsibility. did that fall on deaf ears?

34 athletes and a number of support staff and NOT ONE sought an outside opinion

This is simply not believable. So for mine the players were in on the Hird train. 'everyone's doing it' and 'Bomba said this is what Geelong did' 'Bring the good stuff we are playing Carlton this week"

They are as guilty as sin.

[Willmoy1947 3,814]

At the end of this sham I'm going to want someone like(as high up as) the Pope or the Queen or the Prime Minister to explain to me so I believe them

that there were reasons why this and that happened and what will be meted out and to who.

Then, thereafter, it will be ok for me to walk away and forget about everything to do with bloody Essendon and just concentrate on footy.

It could bug me a lot though if I'm not happy with what should be justice. Perhaps for personal reasons and perhaps because I'm getting old.

[biggestred 4,377]

At the end of this sham I'm going to want someone like(as high up as) the Pope or the Queen or the Prime Minister to explain to me so I believe them

that there were reasons why this and that happened and what will be meted out and to who.

Then, thereafter, it will be ok for me to walk away and forget about everything to do with bloody Essendon and just concentrate on footy.

It could bug me a lot though if I'm not happy with what should be justice. Perhaps for personal reasons and perhaps because I'm getting old.

wont happen unless there is a royal commission.

[beelzebub 22,351]

They're cooked

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

Everyone wants the players punished.

They followed what the club was telling them. As far as anyone knows, they thought everything was approved by their Doctor, something they had clear directions from the AFL. They were trained BY THE AFL in their drug education sessions to go to the club doctor, not WADA. That they went across the road for injections is completely irrelevant, if they were under the belief that this was approved by the Dr.

Doc Reid wrote to the club, not the players. Did they know he was on the outer? If they went outside of the club for advice, were they risking being sacked and sued by the club for breaking confidentiality and thus destroying their careers.

It is the club that has behaved disgracefully, not the players.

The club should be thrown out of the AFL for at least two years. There administration and coaches directly involved should be banned for life (possibly screwing us but so be it) but any verdict on the players should be token at best IMO.

[Wells 11 4,873]

Everyone wants the players punished.

They followed what the club was telling them. As far as anyone knows, they thought everything was approved by their Doctor, something they had clear directions from the AFL. They were trained BY THE AFL in their drug education sessions to go to the club doctor, not WADA. That they went across the road for injections is completely irrelevant, if they were under the belief that this was approved by the Dr.

Doc Reid wrote to the club, not the players. Did they know he was on the outer? If they went outside of the club for advice, were they risking being sacked and sued by the club for breaking confidentiality and thus destroying their careers.

It is the club that has behaved disgracefully, not the players.

The club should be thrown out of the AFL for at least two years. There administration and coaches directly involved should be banned for life (possibly screwing us but so be it) but any verdict on the players should be token at best IMO.

I agree in part. Im pretty sure the players would have felt that something dodgy was going on re the massive increase in muscle mass they were having. They must have at least SOME accountability. Yet, for the reasons you listed, I tend t agree that the players role is the hardest to really condemn. They had a protocol they were instructed by the AFL to follow and they trusted the club. I wouldn't be upset if their penalty was small.

I think we want the players punished as we all want something large done to protect the game in general and to see some strong action taken. To suspend ex coaches or board members no longer at their club feels like the " wet tram ticket" that others have been talking about throughout these pages. If thats what happens then in the end WE might feel more affected than they do i.e lose our coach in waiting. Which just feels worng. Someone like Goodwin probably felt the same as the players ie that the club was doing its due diligence.

So....I'd like to see something done to the Dons as a CLUB. ie suspend the club for a year. No games. This unfortunately also would also punish the innocent players at their club after the fact. Yet its a strong signal that all the delaying whilst they trade out of players and get rid of coaches, all the law suits and media diversions they entered into wont in any way get the CLUB out of trouble.

Pursuing individual players, and less involved coaches feels at least like "action" but ultimately I'd like to see the club as a whole hit a lot harder than the players.

[djr 1,071]

I just hope they have a Plan B for if Goodwin gets suspended. It will be a significant black mark against Jackson if there isn't. Maybe the Plan B is that Roos has agreed to stay on if Goodwin is sanctioned.

[Dees2014 2,377]

The question about the possibility of sanctions against Melksham was asked of Jason Taylor at the club's recent pre draft function and the response was that the club had advice that the possibility of any major sanction was low.

I don't know what source such advice came from but, after a long time in the law, I can say that I would never give that advice to anyone.

Yes Jack, I think this is symptomatic of how "head in the sand" the whole of the AFL industry has been right throughout this saga. I think they have thought all along that this will all be fixed by doing deals and that is why both Essendon and the AFL were seemingly blindsided by the WADA appeal to CAS. It was as if they were saying "you can't do this to the all powerful AFL!" I bet Jason Taylor's advice came from inside that closeted AFL establishment. They could hardly say anything else could they, otherwise their whole carefully built up trading system would collapse.

The question I ask is where were the legal "hard heads" who were supposed to be looking after the interests of the MFC. If we could see two years ago that to have anything to do with Essendon and all those associated with the Hird regime was crazy, why couldn't they. I have written a number of times on here that we should never have engaged Goodwin, no matter how good a coach he is, and we certainly should not trade for any Essendon players of that era, until this is all cleared up. And it may not be for years given the litany of legal cases which are likely to follow CAS.

[Gorgoroth 12,362]

I think WADA should go for 8 month bans on players down from 12, but hit the club for two year ban.

[rjay 24,046]

I think WADA should go for 8 month bans on players down from 12, but hit the club for two year ban.

The CAS case is against the players, not the club.

Who knows what will happen though in the wash up if the players are found guilty.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Interesting in that this points to this case being somewhat of a test case and that WADA feel the way the AFL dealt with it didn't line up with any precedent set. Sounds like WADA went in and said here is a precedent under which the players are done, it is up to you CAS to decide if the precedent is right or if it needs changing because to find them not guilty then you are changing the precedent.

Can't see CAS doing that. I think the players will get around 12 months on the sidelines and that is due to the AFL. Their ban would be two years of it were not for the AFL training that said the players need to check with the club, not ASADA. The players checked with the club as they were instructed wrongly to do by the AFL, that gives them the no reasonable negligence to me.

This will be just the start of course. Based on the Armstrong precedent, the players will be found guilty and suspended for two years (with maybe a slight discount). ASADA will then issue infraction notices to the coaches and medical staff unfortunately probably including Goodwin. Penalties will be handed down by the AFL. WADA will object and appeal to CAS. Various legal actions will no doubt follow given Hird's and Reid's past proclivities so the whole circle will start again. "Blue Hills" has got nothing on this!

[Dees2014 2,377]

I'm still holding out hope, that justice will be served.

The AFL showed their hand, when they put the submission to CAS, that the players should not serve bans. fkn disgusting. I'm still furious about it.

Shows the farce of the Tribunal hearing for what it was.

Agree with WYL's comment that maximum bans are the only way to clean up sport. Would love to know what WADA requested as bans. Hopefully they see it the same way I do.

The AFL are quite entitled to advocate for the protection of the game as they see it, and clearly they see an absent Essendon or a greatly diminished Essendon as being high detrimental to both the economics and the health of AFL. football. No doubt they are right.

WADA though has a responsibility for the integrity of world sport, and CAS is the umpire which adjudicates on their (WADA's) rules. They will have no interest in what the interests of the AFL are, or indeed whether this case will hurt the long term interests of the game itself. Their sole purpose is to try to keep world sport clean, and thank goodness for that. In the long term everyone benefits, including the AFL, aLthough clearly the AFL does not see that now.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Dees2014

[Lucifers Hero 37,324]

I just hope they have a Plan B for if Goodwin gets suspended. It will be a significant black mark against Jackson if there isn't. Maybe the Plan B is that Roos has agreed to stay on if Goodwin is sanctioned.

It is the players that get a suspension from the CAS appeal.

It is unlikely that the AFL will take any action against support staff at EFC (they cleared Goodwin in 2013).

Nonetheless, we have McCartney an experienced AFL coach, known to the players and the club, to step straight in.

[Dees2014 2,377]

I agree in part. Im pretty sure the players would have felt that something dodgy was going on re the massive increase in muscle mass they were having. They must have at least SOME accountability. Yet, for the reasons you listed, I tend t agree that the players role is the hardest to really condemn. They had a protocol they were instructed by the AFL to follow and they trusted the club. I wouldn't be upset if their penalty was small.

I think we want the players punished as we all want something large done to protect the game in general and to see some strong action taken. To suspend ex coaches or board members no longer at their club feels like the " wet tram ticket" that others have been talking about throughout these pages. If thats what happens then in the end WE might feel more affected than they do i.e lose our coach in waiting. Which just feels worng. Someone like Goodwin probably felt the same as the players ie that the club was doing its due diligence.

So....I'd like to see something done to the Dons as a CLUB. ie suspend the club for a year. No games. This unfortunately also would also punish the innocent players at their club after the fact. Yet its a strong signal that all the delaying whilst they trade out of players and get rid of coaches, all the law suits and media diversions they entered into wont in any way get the CLUB out of trouble.

Pursuing individual players, and less involved coaches feels at least like "action" but ultimately I'd like to see the club as a whole hit a lot harder than the players.

The first action by ASADA/WADA has to be to go after the players to establish there has been wrong doing. Their penalty is almost irrelevant, but I believe after their guilt is established I can't see how WADA rules will not be enforced and they will get 2 years (and lucky not to be 4 given the recent increases). Then ASADA/WADA will go after their real targets - those who perpetrated this illegal scheme, and like Armstrong they will get life bans, and so they should.

[jnrmac 19,327]

Everyone wants the players punished.

They followed what the club was telling them. As far as anyone knows, they thought everything was approved by their Doctor, something they had clear directions from the AFL. They were trained BY THE AFL in their drug education sessions to go to the club doctor, not WADA. That they went across the road for injections is completely irrelevant, if they were under the belief that this was approved by the Dr.

Doc Reid wrote to the club, not the players. Did they know he was on the outer? If they went outside of the club for advice, were they risking being sacked and sued by the club for breaking confidentiality and thus destroying their careers.

It is the club that has behaved disgracefully, not the players.

The club should be thrown out of the AFL for at least two years. There administration and coaches directly involved should be banned for life (possibly screwing us but so be it) but any verdict on the players should be token at best IMO.

The problem with this RGRS, as I have said numerous times beofre on here, is that if you replace EFC with the Chinese swim team you get a different perspective. You can't have an athlete saying, 'my coach and doctor told me to take it'. The systemic Russian and East german athletic programmes mean that clean athletes are cheated. It seems clear they were all duped but that's tough for them. Tough too for Raelene Boyle missing out on gold medals and tough too for the 17 other clubs that were playing EFC during that period.

The drug code just simply can not work that way. That's why athletes are totally responsible. They can't outsource that responsibility. And as for all the training about drugs you can't tell me not ONE single player spoke to someone outside the club like their wife or manager or personal doctor etc? It beggars belief.

Oh that's right, It was a black ops. I mean really?

The EFC and its players were looking for an adge and were pushing the boundaries. They threw common sense outthe window and relied on the vibe that Dr Reid was overseeing thr programme. And Dank? I mean FFS one look at Dank and you would seriously question his credentials wouldn't you? He's a freaking witch doctor.

Reid should never practice again, How he is still in place at the EFC is beyond me, The players. Unbelievably stupid and should be banned for 2 years. The club administrators should never be able to be associated with a sporting team again, The club should be banned for another two years minimum.

There is no half-pregnant when it comes to drugs. Either you take the hard line or dont bother. The players have yet to be punished. They deserve the book thrown at them.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I a legitimately surprised that not one draftee over the past few years pulled a Wingard and said "I will not play for you".

Then again, maybe some did and we never heard about it.

[Dees2014 2,377]

It is the players that get a suspension from the CAS appeal.

It is unlikely that the AFL will take any action against support staff at EFC (they cleared Goodwin in 2013).

Nonetheless, we have McCartney an experienced AFL coach, known to the players and the club, to step straight in.

I'm sure you are right that the AFL will not go after the hierarchy at Essendon, but should there be a guilty verdict from CAS for the players, I think it is very likely that most of the Essendon support staff will receive infraction notices, including Goodwin.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

and what about all the wada training, when the athlete is told he has ultimate personal responsibility. did that fall on deaf ears?

34 athletes and a number of support staff and NOT ONE sought an outside opinion

I reckon one person did. Then faked the "niddle phobia" to get out of the program.

[Chris 2,892]

I a legitimately surprised that not one draftee over the past few years pulled a Wingard and said "I will not play for you".

Then again, maybe some did and we never heard about it.

Or the draftees are rubbing their hands together at the prospect of a lengthy period where the senior players wont be able to play which will mean the new draftee gets more game time.

[Chris 2,892]

I reckon one person did. Then faked the "niddle phobia" to get out of the program.

Crameri's mum apparently did check with ASADA using the permission form he bought home and it all checked out. I call BS on that as if you put in thymomodulin it asks you for more detail as this may mean a few things, some of which are banned. ASADA also give you a receipt number for your check for use in your defence yet there has been no mention of this.

Either Crameri's mum didn't use the portal properly, didn't understand the results it spat out, or it never happened. You can choose which it is, not knowing Crameri's mum I would say pick 3 as pick 1 and 2 don't look good for her and I don't want to besmirch the name of a women I have never met.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,534]

Everyone wants the players punished.

They followed what the club was telling them. As far as anyone knows, they thought everything was approved by their Doctor, something they had clear directions from the AFL. They were trained BY THE AFL in their drug education sessions to go to the club doctor, not WADA. That they went across the road for injections is completely irrelevant, if they were under the belief that this was approved by the Dr.

Doc Reid wrote to the club, not the players. Did they know he was on the outer? If they went outside of the club for advice, were they risking being sacked and sued by the club for breaking confidentiality and thus destroying their careers.

It is the club that has behaved disgracefully, not the players.

The club should be thrown out of the AFL for at least two years. There administration and coaches directly involved should be banned for life (possibly screwing us but so be it) but any verdict on the players should be token at best IMO.

Just on that first line...the players have to be found guilty of something first. Then I'll agree.

Without knowing all the facts it's impossible for any of us to know whether the players will be found guilty. Keep in mind that most legal processes err on the side of the defendants on the basis that it's better for a guilty person to be found innocent than an innocent person to be found guilty. Whether it's the same for a CAS process, I don't know.

[jnrmac 19,327]

Crameri's mum apparently did check with ASADA using the permission form he bought home and it all checked out. I call BS on that as if you put in thymomodulin it asks you for more detail as this may mean a few things, some of which are banned. ASADA also give you a receipt number for your check for use in your defence yet there has been no mention of this.

Either Crameri's mum didn't use the portal properly, didn't understand the results it spat out, or it never happened. You can choose which it is, not knowing Crameri's mum I would say pick 3 as pick 1 and 2 don't look good for her and I don't want to besmirch the name of a women I have never met.

Ha ha are you sure it wasn't Warnie's mum??

[daisycutter 28,691]

Ha ha are you sure it wasn't Warnie's mum??

or juddy's granma?

[beelzebub 22,351]

I reckon one person did. Then faked the "niddle phobia" to get out of the program.

there is that..lol

There were probably a few who made a discovery in relative secrecy then feigned some or other to stay aside from the 'program'. But I suspect they stayed 'mum' on it.

Every other player who did go along had the opportunity to investigate . That they haven't/didn't or chose not to worry is their own foolhardiness and they can cop the ban for it now.

[beelzebub 22,351]

I'm sure you are right that the AFL will not go after the hierarchy at Essendon, but should there be a guilty verdict from CAS for the players, I think it is very likely that most of the Essendon support staff will receive infraction notices, including Goodwin.

This is the case most likely. The AFL dont want to do ANYTHING ..nada... luckily they don't have to..ASADA will and they won't be forgetting the errors of their first go at this . Asada need to show they are made of the right stuff again. They'll have everyone else involved ( other than the players ) in their sights now