Changes for Round 2

[Nascent 9,215]

Just watched the replay. Really even performance from our playing group and will be hard to leave anyone out.

I'm going to say straight out that I like Toumpas and will back him in to be a very good player for us. While his game wasn't flash on the weekend, I don't think it was as bad as some of the comments I've seen suggest, not least considering it must be difficult being thrown on early as sub then off, then back on mid way through the last.

He had two clangers that stood out, a handball that missed its target resulting in a turn over in the first quarter and that handball in the 4th quarter that got smothered. Yet, most of our players had an equal or greater number of clangers/cringe worthy moments. A couple of Tyson's kicks were sprayed massively, two of watts's were something shocking, Jetta's dropped chest mark in defence, McDonalds direct kick to Malceski, Garletts scrubber kick, Salem's dinky out on the full kick, stray handballs from countless players etc.... yet it's Toumpas that cops it.

The obsession of bashing him has probably been born out of our fans frustration of our overall performance of the past decade and our seemingly lack of ability to develop our young quality kids. The fact Wines, McCrae et al have gone on to have stunning starts to their careers certainly hasn't helped. For me though, all Jimmy needs to do us gain a little bit of composure at the top level, easier said than done yes, but it was blatantly obvious while watching that Jimmy is just a step off the pace causing him to rush his disposals/decision making. Will he get used to the pace of AFL at VFL level? I don't think so. Much has been said about how Toumpas is a confidence player. Well I think the best thing Roos can do for him to instill a bit of confidence is have him as a starting 18 player next week and back him in. Maybe I'm off the mark and dominating Casey for a month is the way to go, but I'd like to see more of him at the top level first.

Having said all that, who goes out for Dawes and Vince?? It will be hard week at selection table indeed. As alternatives to the easy option of Toumpas, I wouldn't be surprised that both JKH and Brayshaw find themselves omitted, and will be very unlucky for it.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Nascent

[PaulRB 6,363]

I too see potential and improvement in Toumpas, but believe he should go out before JKH, whose kick to Tyson, handball to Newton, etc... created goals. Brayshaw similarly, created goals with his hands to Jones, frees for (taken by Jones) and in close toughness... all aspects Toumpas is yet to demonstrate.

Toumpas may benefit from a confidence boosting full 120 minutes game time at Casey and the challenge to press his way back into the team.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

Just watched the replay. Really even performance from our playing group and will be hard to leave anyone out.

I'm going to say straight out that I like Toumpas and will back him in to be a very good player for us. While his game wasn't flash on the weekend, I don't think it was as bad as some of the comments I've seen suggest, not least considering it must be difficult being thrown on early as sub then off, then back on mid way through the last.

He had two clangers that stood out, a handball that missed its target resulting in a turn over in the first quarter and that handball in the 4th quarter that got smothered. Yet, most of our players had an equal or greater number of clangers/cringe worthy moments. A couple of Tyson's kicks were sprayed massively, two of watts's were something shocking, Jetta's dropped chest mark in defence, McDonalds direct kick to Malceski, Garletts scrubber kick, Salem's dinky out on the full kick, stray handballs from countless players etc.... yet it's Toumpas that cops it.

The obsession of bashing him has probably been born out of our fans frustration of our overall performance of the past decade and our seemingly lack of ability to develop our young quality kids. The fact Wines, McCrae et al have gone on to have stunning starts to their careers certainly hasn't helped. For me though, all Jimmy needs to do us gain a little bit of composure at the top level, easier said than done yes, but it was blatantly obvious while watching that Jimmy is just a step off the pace causing him to rush his disposals/decision making. Will he get used to the pace of AFL at VFL level? I don't think so. Much has been said about how Toumpas is a confidence player. Well I think the best thing Roos can do for him to instill a bit of confidence is have him as a starting 18 player next week and back him in. Maybe I'm off the mark and dominating Casey for a month is the way to go, but I'd like to see more of him at the top level first.

Having said all that, who goes out for Dawes and Vince?? It will be hard week at selection table indeed. As alternatives to the easy option of Toumpas, I wouldn't be surprised that both JKH and Brayshaw find themselves omitted, and will be very unlucky for it.

The easy option is the right option. The other players would be very confused if Toumpas stayed, as would he himself would be. Think about it, you wouldn't be confident you'd be even more worried about letting your team down.

The only thing in my life I can think about as the same pressure as an AFL game would be a uni exams I've done. And if I failed any I didn't just front up the next week with more confidence I went back and did more preparation to get confidence.

I like certain aspects of his overall game and I like that he cares so much it hurts, because eventually that kind of dedication if it can be harnessed will be something. After the botched handball in the forward line he busted his gut chasing Malceski to pressure the Lumumba turnover, so I see the care is there.

He had something like 6 touches and gave up 1 goal and messed up another certain crucial goal with 2 of them. It's hard not to say that's a shocker even with all the difficulties of being the sub. But more than that at no stage did he seem confident around the play. Time at Casey has to be the right thing. He's fitter and stronger than ever, so with that he'll do well at Casey and will come back in to AFL feeling much more confident than Roosy keeping him in next week would make him feel.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

Might be a case of the Saints bringing them down to their level, but I thought GWS looked rubbish on Sunday. Some absolute clangers all over the place and another laughable bad game from Scully (subbed off of course) who they persist with purely because of his pay packet. Doubt they'll even renew his contract with so many gun midfielders coming into AFL maturity. Must be infuriating them to have a $1M black hole in their salary cap while trying to convince Shiel and Treloar to stay.

They paid him 2 mil the first year I think and probably a bunch load more frontloaded in the first 3. 6 years 6 mil. He's probably down a much lower level now and will probably justify his wage with one good game against us! I think they've got a few out, or have at least traded a few out over the way so he keeps his spot on some form of merit. They do have 2 top 6 midfielders who they haven't even got close to playing yet. Compare that to Gold Coast who had their first 2 midfield type picks playing against us.

[Nascent 9,215]

The easy option is the right option. The other players would be very confused if Toumpas stayed, as would he himself would be. Think about it, you wouldn't be confident you'd be even more worried about letting your team down.

The only thing in my life I can think about as the same pressure as an AFL game would be a uni exams I've done. And if I failed any I didn't just front up the next week with more confidence I went back and did more preparation to get confidence.

I like certain aspects of his overall game and I like that he cares so much it hurts, because eventually that kind of dedication if it can be harnessed will be something. After the botched handball in the forward line he busted his gut chasing Malceski to pressure the Lumumba turnover, so I see the care is there.

He had something like 6 touches and gave up 1 goal and messed up another certain crucial goal with 2 of them. It's hard not to say that's a shocker even with all the difficulties of being the sub. But more than that at no stage did he seem confident around the play. Time at Casey has to be the right thing. He's fitter and stronger than ever, so with that he'll do well at Casey and will come back in to AFL feeling much more confident than Roosy keeping him in next week would make him feel.

Funny you say that, I failed a uni exam but was fortunate enough to be given the chance to resit 1 week later. I ended up getting a distinction the second time around. Shame that I was only left with a pass mark to show for it.

Perhaps you're right and he should be the first to go, I certainly thought as such when I was at the game. I don't envy the selectors...

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

Funny you say that, I failed a uni exam but was fortunate enough to be given the chance to resit 1 week later. I ended up getting a distinction the second time around. Shame that I was only left with a pass mark to show for it.

Perhaps you're right and he should be the first to go, I certainly thought as such when I was at the game. I don't envy the selectors...

We cuddled Watts for so long never dropping him and all it did was up the pressure on him, the angst in the fan base and back the coaches in to a corner. Plus the other players had no confidence in him. If draft pick number is irrelevant and all players are treated the same then Toumpas is dropped just as any other player. The good news is I'm sure there was a talented young player at Geel or the Dogs just like Toumpas that McCartney knows how to work with. Unless it was Liam Jones he'll sort him out.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

As alternatives to the easy option of Toumpas, I wouldn't be surprised that both JKH and Brayshaw find themselves omitted, and will be very unlucky for it.

I don't know how it relates to the previous decision of making Toumpas the original sub, instead of Brayshaw, that certainly took me by surprise. It would seem that Brayshaw is rated higher in the pecking order and therefore it is hard to see them dropping AB instead - especially since AB did far better with his game time than the toump. Good post BTW, I'll be buggered if I know why so many here have it in for Toumpas so badly, we are years away from calling him a bust of a pick.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

We cuddled Watts for so long never dropping him and all it did was up the pressure on him, the angst in the fan base and back the coaches in to a corner. Plus the other players had no confidence in him. If draft pick number is irrelevant and all players are treated the same then Toumpas is dropped just as any other player. The good news is I'm sure there was a talented young player at Geel or the Dogs just like Toumpas that McCartney knows how to work with. Unless it was Liam Jones he'll sort him out.

correct, and more importantly, we have to prioritise fielding the team with the most chance of winning the game, over doing the right thing for one player's development

[Lord Travis 10,730]

Just watched the replay. Really even performance from our playing group and will be hard to leave anyone out.

I'm going to say straight out that I like Toumpas and will back him in to be a very good player for us. While his game wasn't flash on the weekend, I don't think it was as bad as some of the comments I've seen suggest, not least considering it must be difficult being thrown on early as sub then off, then back on mid way through the last.

He had two clangers that stood out, a handball that missed its target resulting in a turn over in the first quarter and that handball in the 4th quarter that got smothered. Yet, most of our players had an equal or greater number of clangers/cringe worthy moments. A couple of Tyson's kicks were sprayed massively, two of watts's were something shocking, Jetta's dropped chest mark in defence, McDonalds direct kick to Malceski, Garletts scrubber kick, Salem's dinky out on the full kick, stray handballs from countless players etc.... yet it's Toumpas that cops it.

The obsession of bashing him has probably been born out of our fans frustration of our overall performance of the past decade and our seemingly lack of ability to develop our young quality kids. The fact Wines, McCrae et al have gone on to have stunning starts to their careers certainly hasn't helped. For me though, all Jimmy needs to do us gain a little bit of composure at the top level, easier said than done yes, but it was blatantly obvious while watching that Jimmy is just a step off the pace causing him to rush his disposals/decision making. Will he get used to the pace of AFL at VFL level? I don't think so. Much has been said about how Toumpas is a confidence player. Well I think the best thing Roos can do for him to instill a bit of confidence is have him as a starting 18 player next week and back him in. Maybe I'm off the mark and dominating Casey for a month is the way to go, but I'd like to see more of him at the top level first.

Having said all that, who goes out for Dawes and Vince?? It will be hard week at selection table indeed. As alternatives to the easy option of Toumpas, I wouldn't be surprised that both JKH and Brayshaw find themselves omitted, and will be very unlucky for it.

I agree with most of what you're saying. The only difference is the players you mentioned who had clangers made up for their mistakes. Tyson sprayed a few kicks, but was involved in multiple chains that lead to goal, and kicked a good team lifting goal himself. Watts uncharacteristically shanked a few, but worked his ass off to set up other goals and kicked some himself. Jetta laid a few solid tackles down back, McDonald was pretty much BOG etc. Toumpas did not do anything effective for the team yesterday and that is why he deserves to be dropped.

But I do take your point. I can see upside in him too. He generally finds a decent amount of ball, more than the likes of Salem, Kent, Kennedy-Harris and a few other highly touted youngsters on here.

I remember he played a really good game against Geelong in the wet. IMO he was BOG for us that day, picked up 20+ disposals and laid 7-8 tackles. He also backed into packs to take intercepting marks and just generally read it well. Games like that show he has the talent and work ethic, he just needs it to click consistently at AFL level.

The Toumpas bashing on this site needs to stop.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Agree D, that Dawes and Bernie come in now but that's to beat GWS. When we get over GWS I hope the coaching staff will manage players appropriately over the next 2 weeks after that to get results.

I haven't taken my eye off gws. but I was suggesting to give the Toump another match to find his feet before I realised our Rnd 3 opponents are the Crows; & that they are in fine fettle already.

Dawes & Vince will need a match to get the cobwebs out, before we meet the Crows, who are in full flap mode.

the Giants will take some beating, we will have to be at our best to beat them, especially as we have to travel....

but to me, selection is done with an eye to the next 3 matches to come; even tho we don't get ahead of ourselves, forward planning is crucial.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Just watched the replay. Really even performance from our playing group and will be hard to leave anyone out.

I'm going to say straight out that I like Toumpas and will back him in to be a very good player for us. While his game wasn't flash on the weekend, I don't think it was as bad as some of the comments I've seen suggest, not least considering it must be difficult being thrown on early as sub then off, then back on mid way through the last.

He had two clangers that stood out, a handball that missed its target resulting in a turn over in the first quarter and that handball in the 4th quarter that got smothered. Yet, most of our players had an equal or greater number of clangers/cringe worthy moments. A couple of Tyson's kicks were sprayed massively, two of watts's were something shocking, Jetta's dropped chest mark in defence, McDonalds direct kick to Malceski, Garletts scrubber kick, Salem's dinky out on the full kick, stray handballs from countless players etc.... yet it's Toumpas that cops it.

The obsession of bashing him has probably been born out of our fans frustration of our overall performance of the past decade and our seemingly lack of ability to develop our young quality kids. The fact Wines, McCrae et al have gone on to have stunning starts to their careers certainly hasn't helped.

For me though, all Jimmy needs to do us gain a little bit of composure at the top level, easier said than done yes, but it was blatantly obvious while watching that Jimmy is just a step off the pace causing him to rush his disposals/decision making. Will he get used to the pace of AFL at VFL level? I don't think so. Much has been said about how Toumpas is a confidence player. Well I think the best thing Roos can do for him to instill a bit of confidence is have him as a starting 18 player next week and back him in. Maybe I'm off the mark and dominating Casey for a month is the way to go, but I'd like to see more of him at the top level first.

Having said all that, who goes out for Dawes and Vince?? It will be hard week at selection table indeed. As alternatives to the easy option of Toumpas, I wouldn't be surprised that both JKH and Brayshaw find themselves omitted, and will be very unlucky for it.

I think it is a crucial time for Toump, he won't crash, but giving him more game time will help him, especially as we play competative type footy. If we drop him this week, it could put him back for 8 weeks.

I'd like to find a way to keep him in the side this week.... even if he gets dropped next week, after a better performance. he needs some decent game time.

...... its been said that with the late turnover from cricket to Footy, the MCG grass is short & its hard under foot, & that most likely, that many players will get sore in the legs over then next 7-10 days time.

Some fresh legs this week could be handy, prior to the Crows game...

[SaberFang 7,151]

Sorry, but giving us the best chance to win two games in a row with the best possible team far, far outweighs considerations of Toumpas' confidence levels. That's a long-term problem for the development team to be concerned with.

Getting two wins in a row and helping the team's mindset has far wider-reaching implications than whether Toumpas builds into his game this year.

Throwing him to the wolves against Adelaide/Hawks/Freo/Syd/Port over the next month will do far more to hinder his development than improve it.

[Chook 15,013]

Sorry, but giving us the best chance to win two games in a row with the best possible team far, far outweighs considerations of Toumpas' confidence levels. That's a long-term problem for the development team to be concerned with.

Getting two wins in a row and helping the team's mindset has far wider-reaching implications than whether Toumpas builds into his game this year.

Throwing him to the wolves against Adelaide/Hawks/Freo/Syd/Port over the next month will do far more to hinder his development than improve it.

I'm not a fan of only giving a player one week in the Seniors; but since we have two A-grade players to come in and it's only the first game of the year, I think dropping the Toump is okay here.

[dee-luded 2,959]

We cuddled Watts for so long never dropping him and all it did was up the pressure on him, the angst in the fan base and back the coaches in to a corner. Plus the other players had no confidence in him. If draft pick number is irrelevant and all players are treated the same then Toumpas is dropped just as any other player. The good news is I'm sure there was a talented young player at Geel or the Dogs just like Toumpas that McCartney knows how to work with. Unless it was Liam Jones he'll sort him out.

yes, but we haven't done that with Toump thus far. they got it wrong badly with watts, but that doesn't mean we have to do the 180 degrees exact opposite with Toump; each psyche is different.

I think Toump needs some stretched out game time. to get the feel & grow into it. not as sub, but the interchange is fine.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Sorry, but giving us the best chance to win two games in a row with the best possible team far, far outweighs considerations of Toumpas' confidence levels. That's a long-term problem for the development team to be concerned with.

Getting two wins in a row and helping the team's mindset has far wider-reaching implications than whether Toumpas builds into his game this year.

Throwing him to the wolves against Adelaide/Hawks/Freo/Syd/Port over the next month will do far more to hinder his development than improve it.

of course the priority is the teams wins & confidence, that goes without needing to say it. but we also have to keep an eye on developing our players for the future. Winning footy form is the key here ,not ladder position. as long as we play strongly, & maintain the team structures & team ethos. We have to develop them, thats just where we are at.

Toump is now into the start of his 3rd season, & needs a chopout to get his wheels turning. doesn't need molly cuddling. just needs a little help from his mates. & some game time.

I didn't say to throw him to the wolves against the Crows, Hawks etc.. just said i'd like to keep him in for another game, give him a rest after week 2.

Edited April 6, 2015 by dee-luded

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

The Toumpas bashing on this site needs to stop.

Agreed, and then some.

[rjay 24,929]

Dawes and Vince are definite in's.

Hogan and maybe Frost may go past Dawes this year or later but at present Dawes is still our main key forward and last year's leading goal kicker.

He may however have to suck it up and become the second ruckman if Frost gets the tap on the shoulder which would be awfully unlucky. Can't see this happening but.

In: Vince, Dawes

Out: Toumpas and the most injured player

Even if our forward line contains Frost, Hoges, Dawes and Watts I'm not concerned about being to tall/slow. Watts we know can move his backside and Dawes & Hoges provide good chase and pressure and we all got a crush on Frosty for some of his tackling.

If our forward line had talks like Gawn and Fitzy roaming I'd be worried as they offer little once the pill hits the deck

Hogan has already gone past Dawes, he just needed one game to prove it.

[rjay 24,929]

We cuddled Watts for so long never dropping him and all it did was up the pressure on him, the angst in the fan base and back the coaches in to a corner. Plus the other players had no confidence in him. If draft pick number is irrelevant and all players are treated the same then Toumpas is dropped just as any other player. The good news is I'm sure there was a talented young player at Geel or the Dogs just like Toumpas that McCartney knows how to work with. Unless it was Liam Jones he'll sort him out.

Sorry, but giving us the best chance to win two games in a row with the best possible team far, far outweighs considerations of Toumpas' confidence levels. That's a long-term problem for the development team to be concerned with.

Getting two wins in a row and helping the team's mindset has far wider-reaching implications than whether Toumpas builds into his game this year.

Throwing him to the wolves against Adelaide/Hawks/Freo/Syd/Port over the next month will do far more to hinder his development than improve it.

It will be best player, team balance as you guys say. This is AFL, the big league. It's not a place for fragile egos so the best man takes the position in the team.

As for Jimmy T, he may well miss out this week but he is a bit hard done by on here. I am disappointed by his output to date as I expected more but I'm not going to write him off just yet.

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

Why do people wanna drop Kent? he almost got knocked out in the first few minutes and spent a quarter on the bench then came on to do some beautiful things

He stays, hes way to good and dangerous to drop and hes way too good for VFl level

Not to mention he had the job on AA half back Malceski who played one of the worst games he's ever played.

After watching the replay it's quite clear that Toumpas and JKH will make way for Dawes and Vince.

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

Hogan has already gone past Dawes, he just needed one game to prove it.

I think Hogan already proved it against the Suns.

Hogan has it all while Dawes is just a battler, he there to stop Hogan from being double teamed.

[jackaub 1,402]

Toump out Vince in

Dawes back through Casey

Frost has mcuch more impact than Dawes already!

[Bring Back Barassi 552]

The messiah has made it clear on numerous occasions that first year players need to be eased in. Given the situation, despite his fine performance, Brayshaw will be rested.

In: Dawes, Vince

Out: Toumpas, Brayshaw

[DubDee 25,885]

It is tough to pick isn't it? Harder coz of personnel but mainly due to not having a quality second ruck option.

Dawes comes in, no doubt in my mind. He was the catalyst behind most of wins last year. Amazing pressure and hardness.

If I had to pick it would be Toump and brayshaw out. Both unlucky. Brayshaw especially but he only had 9 touches and is a kid whose played 4 games on the trot. Take it easy with him. He hasn't yet earned being picked ahead of senior pros like Dawes and cross.

Only issue could be is this going in too tall?

Edited April 6, 2015 by DubDee

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

Having browsed thru this thread I've seen many reasons for Dawes to come back. One reason I haven't seen is: that he can kick goals!

That is his primary job isn't it? Our team will be a lot better when he learns to use his body better, holds marks and kicks goals ie he does his job.

Very happy to see him back in but as I said in an earlier post there needs to be a role for him...he needs to add value to the team. If he comes in it will be interesting to see the role he plays. He also has a bit of competition for his spot, leader or not.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,241]

Having browsed thru this thread I've seen many reasons for Dawes to come back. One reason I haven't seen is: that he can kick goals!

That is his primary job isn't it? Our team will be a lot better when he learns to use his body better, holds marks and kicks goals ie he does his job.

Very happy to see him back in but as I said in an earlier post there needs to be a role for him...he needs to add value to the team. If he comes in it will be interesting to see the role he plays. He also has a bit of competition for his spot, leader or not.

Yeah I'd like him to kick a bag too Luce but his mere presence will have a variety of positives. He will draw a big defender and run him around - that is one less for Hogan/Watts to worry about. He will create contests and spillage - come on in Jeff. He is a leader and experienced and will mentor Hogan to some extent. He is aggressive and causes a few shudders among the opposition.