Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Whispering_Jack 28,010]

The AFL has a lot to answer over all of this. Having concluded it's so-called case against Essendon, taken them out of the finals, there's been a virtual cessation of interest on its part over the peptides regime. Let's face it, it's highly likely that someone from within the club knew exactly what the players have ingested into their bodies but does the AFL care?

Whilst I get the point you're making about what seems to be a lack of apparent transparency on the part of Essendon where its coaches and officials are denying knowledge of the substances given to the players under their supplements programme, this is something about which the AFL would best keep its nose right out - the fact that it was part of ASADA's investigation up to the issue of the interim report was problematic. Demetriou's comment about going to his death knowing Hird wasn't being paid was downright embarrassing if not a complete humiliation.

The matter should now be left until ASADA issues it's final report which should highlight, among other things, exactly how it came to pass that the likes of Hird, Thompson, Corcoran and Reid knew about the programme but claim to have no idea as to the substances given to the players. More importantly, it needs to get to the bottom of who was given what substances and the truth must come out.

[hoopla 418]

ASADA have said precious little since the whole saga hit the airwaves almost 12 months ago now - except that the enquiry is "not yet complete" !!

In fairness to everyone - Essendon players, Essendon supporters and the whole football community - they are obliged to make some sort of clear-cut statement sooner rather than later.

How many other incomplete files are piled up on the ASADA office floor at the moment - and how does it efficiently and effectively manage its limited resources if staff are shuffling inconclusive snippetts of information between them from one week to the next ?. Unless they have strong reason to believe that they will get Dank to "tell all" soon - and that his testimony will establish guilt - or innocence - beyond reasonable doubt, they must surely have developed an interim conclusion by now.. There is nothing to stop the file being re-opened if and when new evidence emerges

It is incongruous that they are actively working on pivotal evidence - without even a sniff of progress finding its way to the mainstream media. This is not an investigation into the behavior of a single athlete and his/her support team - but an investigation into behavior at an entire club operating in a fishbowl. Realistically not a lot can have been happening for several months now.

No doubt somebody will point out that these things always take time - but they wont convince me that ASADA's continuing silence isn't a reflection of indecision if not incompetence

Perhaps they have legal advice that they will avoid a lot of angst if they hold infraction notices until players retire.That way the plan may be to use Dustin Fletcher as a test case .... as long as he ever does retire, that is!!

[Undeeterred 2,866]

ASADA have said precious little since the whole saga hit the airwaves almost 12 months ago now - except that the enquiry is "not yet complete" !!

In fairness to everyone - Essendon players, Essendon supporters and the whole football community - they are obliged to make some sort of clear-cut statement sooner rather than later.

How many other incomplete files are piled up on the ASADA office floor at the moment - and how does it efficiently and effectively manage its limited resources if staff are shuffling inconclusive snippetts of information between them from one week to the next ?. Unless they have strong reason to believe that they will get Dank to "tell all" soon - and that his testimony will establish guilt - or innocence - beyond reasonable doubt, they must surely have developed an interim conclusion by now.. There is nothing to stop the file being re-opened if and when new evidence emerges

It is incongruous that they are actively working on pivotal evidence - without even a sniff of progress finding its way to the mainstream media. This is not an investigation into the behavior of a single athlete and his/her support team - but an investigation into behavior at an entire club operating in a fishbowl. Realistically not a lot can have been happening for several months now.

No doubt somebody will point out that these things always take time - but they wont convince me that ASADA's continuing silence isn't a reflection of indecision if not incompetence

Perhaps they have legal advice that they will avoid a lot of angst if they hold infraction notices until players retire.That way the plan may be to use Dustin Fletcher as a test case .... as long as he ever does retire, that is!!

Police don't put out press releases every five minutes on active investigations either, unless there is good reason to. It doesn't mean nothing is happening.

[sue 8,457]

ASADA have said precious little since the whole saga hit the airwaves almost 12 months ago now - except that the enquiry is "not yet complete" !!

In fairness to everyone - Essendon players, Essendon supporters and the whole football community - they are obliged to make some sort of clear-cut statement sooner rather than later.

How many other incomplete files are piled up on the ASADA office floor at the moment - and how does it efficiently and effectively manage its limited resources if staff are shuffling inconclusive snippetts of information between them from one week to the next ?. Unless they have strong reason to believe that they will get Dank to "tell all" soon - and that his testimony will establish guilt - or innocence - beyond reasonable doubt, they must surely have developed an interim conclusion by now.. There is nothing to stop the file being re-opened if and when new evidence emerges

It is incongruous that they are actively working on pivotal evidence - without even a sniff of progress finding its way to the mainstream media. This is not an investigation into the behavior of a single athlete and his/her support team - but an investigation into behavior at an entire club operating in a fishbowl. Realistically not a lot can have been happening for several months now.

No doubt somebody will point out that these things always take time - but they wont convince me that ASADA's continuing silence isn't a reflection of indecision if not incompetence

Perhaps they have legal advice that they will avoid a lot of angst if they hold infraction notices until players retire.That way the plan may be to use Dustin Fletcher as a test case .... as long as he ever does retire, that is!!

The phrase "don't go off half-cocked" comes to mind. ASADA can't charge someone with something hoping a bit more evidence to bolster the case may be discovered later. Your statement that they are investigating an entire club concluded with "Realistically not a lot can have been happening for several months now". Surely the wider the investigation the longer it takes.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Agree with Sue and us deterred.

And the poster lives and thrives on his username.

It's rather silly and naive at this stage to be making judgements on ASADA's progress.

If anything it should be a positive that there have been no leaks from ASADA.

[Blistering 493]

How many other incomplete files are piled up on the ASADA office floor at the moment - and how does it efficiently and effectively manage its limited resources if staff are shuffling inconclusive snippetts of information between them from one week to the next ?. Unless they have strong reason to believe that they will get Dank to "tell all" soon - and that his testimony will establish guilt - or innocence - beyond reasonable doubt, they must surely have developed an interim conclusion by now.. There is nothing to stop the file being re-opened if and when new evidence emerges

Hoopla, there are so many things wrong with this - you really need to read through some of the earlier discussion on this thread.

For starters, you have the standard of proof wrong which suggests that you miss the point that the investigation is being carried out not in the way it would be under our common law legal system but in accordance with the WADA Code which the AFL and it's players accept as the applicable law in these cases.

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Hoopla,

I think the exact opposite. The lack of commentary/leaks from ASADA IMO is evidence of a well run ship. I dont think it would be the lack of trying by the media that information has not got out.

The investgation will take as long as the investigation takes. These things can take years. I dont know anymore than you but I suspect that evidence in relation to the Essendon investgation is closely linked to evidence relating the Cronulla investgation and that from ASAD's perspctive they need to resolve both in coordnation to maximise the outcomes aganst all suspects. I think that while the Essendon and Cronulla players and officials will be dealt with for breaches of the WADA code the key for ASADA will be to identify those persons invlved in the illegal trade and distribution of regulated subtances and refer evidence of possible crimnal matters to the Police. This will follow on from ASADA outcomes against players and officals and will be managed in cooperation with Federal and State Police. The long term aim of ASADA is to get these people and anyone associated with them out of sport for good not to issue infrngements against Essendon players.

[hoopla 418]

Hoopla, there are so many things wrong with this - you really need to read through some of the earlier discussion on this thread.

For starters, you have the standard of proof wrong which suggests that you miss the point that the investigation is being carried out not in the way it would be under our common law legal system but in accordance with the WADA Code which the AFL and it's players accept as the applicable law in these cases.

I recognize that the "burden of proof" does not operate as it does under the common law

I simply make the point that evidence of events which took place in 2012 is less likely to emerge in 2014 than it was in 2013 - and that it will be less likely again in 2015.

There are of course exceptions - but that is all they are- exceptions.

There have been many excellent posts on this thread. But as much as I would like to accept that well considered investigations are proceeding as quickly as circumstances permit I am afraid that I have now become a sceptic.

Hoopla,

I think the exact opposite. The lack of commentary/leaks from ASADA IMO is evidence of a well run ship. I dont think it would be the lack of trying by the media that information has not got out.

The investgation will take as long as the investigation takes. These things can take years. I dont know anymore than you but I suspect that evidence in relation to the Essendon investgation is closely linked to evidence relating the Cronulla investgation and that from ASAD's perspctive they need to resolve both in coordnation to maximise the outcomes aganst all suspects. I think that while the Essendon and Cronulla players and officials will be dealt with for breaches of the WADA code the key for ASADA will be to identify those persons invlved in the illegal trade and distribution of regulated subtances and refer evidence of possible crimnal matters to the Police. This will follow on from ASADA outcomes against players and officals and will be managed in cooperation with Federal and State Police. The long term aim of ASADA is to get these people and anyone associated with them out of sport for good not to issue infrngements against Essendon players.

You have great faith in the standard of investigation in this country.

Twelve months ago ASADA, and the ACCC stood behind the Minister as she told the world that performing enhancing drugs were rife in Australian sports. You see their deafening silence since then as evidence of a "well run ship". I hope you are correct - but as yet another season approaches, I think its more likely that the thing is stuck in ice in Antarctica or lost in the Bermuda triangle

I reckon there's one thing we would agree on - that people who see a need to warn people away with a photos of themselves on roller blades shouldn't promote the idea that posters "live and die by their user-name"

[Redleg 37,827]

But as much as I would like to accept that well considered investigations are proceeding as quickly as circumstances permit I am afraid that I have now become a sceptic.

I can understand that, as so much of this saga is indeed septic.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I simply make the point that evidence of events which took place in 2012 is less likely to emerge in 2014 than it was in 2013 - and that it will be less likely again in 2015.

There are of course exceptions - but that is all they are- exceptions.

There have been many excellent posts on this thread. But as much as I would like to accept that well considered investigations are proceeding as quickly as circumstances permit I am afraid that I have now become a sceptic.

You have great faith in the standard of investigation in this country.

Twelve months ago ASADA, and the ACCC stood behind the Minister as she told the world that performing enhancing drugs were rife in Australian sports. You see their deafening silence since then as evidence of a "well run ship". I hope you are correct - but as yet another season approaches, I think its more likely that the thing is stuck in ice in Antarctica or lost in the Bermuda triangle

In absence of actual knowledge about what the position and status of the ASADA, your posturing is based on a lot of hot air.

Why don't you wait for the actual report to come out assess the process that has been done then beat your chest with your scepticism?

[old dee 22,930]

In absence of actual knowledge about what the position and status of the ASADA, your posturing is based on a lot of hot air.

Why don't you wait for the actual report to come out assess the process that has been done then beat your chest with your scepticism?

We will probably all be in wheel chairs and the Essendon players will be grand Parents by then!

[biggestred 4,337]

http://m.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/darren-hibbert-sick-note-cuts-no-ice-with-asada-20140129-31n78.html?rand=1390997001592

[puntkick 325]

We will probably all be in wheel chairs and the Essendon players will be grand Parents by then!

The wheel chairs I can handle, its the dementia I worry about !

Will we have honestly beaten them to a flag ?

[DEE fence 4,510]

My mail is quite a bit different-WADA issues the doping 'criminal code'. ASADA is meant to apply it nationally as a quasi enforcement body. That has not happened, where ASADA is in knots, is that it approved the peptide that was in the 'other' category, despite WADA guidelines that this should not be done. ASADA has in effect given incorrect advice and not adhered to WADA policy the way they should have. That EFC took it to far in other areas is likely, but ASADA's incorrect actions remains the biggest story yet to come out of the process. This whole saga has destroyed relationships at the highest level AFL CEO and the News limited xo for Aus are no longer speaking (it remains unparalleled that the AFL investigator was allowed to interview News limited journalists with them instructed to answer questions about their sources). ASADA credibility will be destroyed at the end of this process. That Dank is a worm is also clear.

Edit: the interview of HS journos took place inside news limited offices with the MD telling them to answer the questions, some have since taken legal advice and a few ended up working from home until new Limited management saw their relationship with the AFL had gone too far. I understand that this has been touched on before and referenced since in the news, (i don't read the HS) but my mail on ASADA is what i wanted to contribute, will not name the source but trust them with everything.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Ingeniokinetikey

[beelzebub 22,237]

http://m.smh.com.au/rugby-league/league-news/darren-hibbert-sick-note-cuts-no-ice-with-asada-20140129-31n78.html?rand=1390997001592

Hibbert trying to play funny buggers. He like others think this is some big joke and that they are all wearing teflon.

[beelzebub 22,237]

And News Limited would never have considered itself a law unto itself either ?

[sue 8,457]

The wheel chairs I can handle, its the dementia I worry about !

Will we have honestly beaten them to a flag ?

The advantage of dementia is that even if we haven't won a flag by then, we can think we have.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

My mail is quite a bit different-WADA issues the doping 'criminal code'. ASADA is meant to apply it nationally as a quasi enforcement body. That has not happened, where ASADA is in knots, is that it approved the peptide that was in the 'other' category, despite WADA guidelines that this should not be done. ASADA has in effect given incorrect advice and not adhered to WADA policy the way they should have. That EFC took it to far in other areas is likely, but ASADA's incorrect actions remains the biggest story yet to come out of the process. This whole saga has destroyed relationships at the highest level AFL CEO and the News limited xo for Aus are no longer speaking (it remains unparalleled that the AFL investigator was allowed to interview News limited journalists with them instructed to answer questions about their sources). ASADA credibility will be destroyed at the end of this process. That Dank is a worm is also clear.

Edit: the interview of HS journos took place inside news limited offices with the MD telling them to answer the questions, some have since taken legal advice and a few ended up working from home until new Limited management saw their relationship with the AFL had gone too far. I understand that this has been touched on before and referenced since in the news, (i don't read the HS) but my mail on ASADA is what i wanted to contribute, will not name the source but trust them with everything.

You should really check your mail. And your source is not very good.

1. WADA does not issue the criminal code in this country on doping. The Aust Govt legislates and funds ASADA to carry out WADA standards.

2. The ASADA claim of incorrect advice is just a claim with no reliable proof that it actually happened. It's no more than hearsay. It's not the biggest issue here. The elephant is the potential issue of infraction notices.

3. And relationship btw Vlad and News CEO is not good. Ho hum. It appears its News's problem that it instructed its journos to speak with ASADA. And why the hell wouldn't it. Given the Hun's lack lustre coverage of this saga I don't know what value getting third hand info off an AFL journalist would do. If theHun had anything they would have printed it by now.

4. And Danks is scum.....well I never!!!! The slur does not say much and it remains to be seen to what extent Danks is hit by ASADA and/or the ACC.

[Crompton's the man 635]

The advantage of dementia is that even if we haven't won a flag by then, we can think we have.

That's not actually correct

At that stage we just won't even worry about it any more

[old dee 22,930]

That's not actually correct

At that stage we just won't even worry about it any more

That is an advantage of dementia I had not considered.

Not all bad then!

[bing181 8,176]

You should really check your mail. And your source is not very good.

2. The ASADA claim of incorrect advice is just a claim with no reliable proof that it actually happened. It's no more than hearsay. It's not the biggest issue here. The elephant is the potential issue of infraction notices.

On top of that, ASADA have denied ever having issued such advice to anyone connected with the AFL or Essendon.

It's a story spread by Dank and co., presumably to try and cover themselves.

[Whispering_Jack 28,010]

My mail is quite a bit different-WADA issues the doping 'criminal code'. ASADA is meant to apply it nationally as a quasi enforcement body. That has not happened, where ASADA is in knots, is that it approved the peptide that was in the 'other' category, despite WADA guidelines that this should not be done. ASADA has in effect given incorrect advice and not adhered to WADA policy the way they should have. That EFC took it to far in other areas is likely, but ASADA's incorrect actions remains the biggest story yet to come out of the process. This whole saga has destroyed relationships at the highest level AFL CEO and the News limited xo for Aus are no longer speaking (it remains unparalleled that the AFL investigator was allowed to interview News limited journalists with them instructed to answer questions about their sources). ASADA credibility will be destroyed at the end of this process. That Dank is a worm is also clear.

Edit: the interview of HS journos took place inside news limited offices with the MD telling them to answer the questions, some have since taken legal advice and a few ended up working from home until new Limited management saw their relationship with the AFL had gone too far. I understand that this has been touched on before and referenced since in the news, (i don't read the HS) but my mail on ASADA is what i wanted to contribute, will not name the source but trust them with everything.

Propaganda.

I set out below my post from this thread on 23 August which deals with the Essendon claim about ASADA issuing incorrect information about AOD-9604. Even if the allegation were true (and to date no record has been produced) it would not be helpful to the Bombers' cause.

The other aspect to this is the confusion about the actual drugs that were part of Essendon's programme. This article is a help - What drugs are they on about?

(d) AOD-9604 creams and (e) AOD-9604 injections: AOD-9604 is a synthetic peptide developed as an anti-obesity drug at Monash University in the 1990s. Professor Gary Wittert, at the University of Adelaide, has led five out of the six studies on AOD-9604 carried out in humans, including a six-month study funded by Metabolic Pharmaceuticals, the company that developed it. He recently said on ABC radio that the drug had no effect in weight loss and the trials were abandoned. Despite some anecdotal reports that it can build muscle, Wittert says he has been unable to find any data to support this. Indeed, he says the drug was specifically designed not to have anabolic effects.

In a statement released earlier this year, Metabolic's parent company Calzada said the obesity program was abandoned in 2007 as trials did not show ''a clinically meaningful weight loss outcome''. Regarding anabolic effects, it said previous pre-clinical trials ''provide clear scientific and medical evidence that AOD-9604 does not increase insulin-like Growth Factor 1. Furthermore, there is no evidence that AOD-9604 dosing increases the number of muscle or cartilage cells.''

AOD-9604's status with WADA has been a matter of controversy from the start. The Australian Crime Commission report initially stated that AOD-9604 was not banned and it is alleged that Essendon may have been told that, which may have led club doctor Bruce Reid to approve its use as part of the supplement program.

However, WADA has stated that AOD-9604 is a banned substance under Section S0 of its code, which states that any pharmacological substance not addressed by any sections of the prohibited list and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use is prohibited. The ACC subsequently published a statement that while AOD-9604 was not banned under S2 as it was advised, it is banned under S0.

That is also WADA's position and that of ASADA although there have been attempts by some to muddy the waters but the explanations on AFL360 by Gerard Whately and Essendon's consultant Dr. Garnham sound like spin to me.

See also: ASADA'unclear on drug status'

IMO whether ASADA lacks clarity on the status of AOD-9604 is totally irrelevant. The AFL Anti-Doping Code is what matters:

Section 20.2

In performing its functions under this Code or otherwise, ASADA is not and must not be deemed to be the agent of the AFL. For the avoidance of doubt, it is expressly stated that ASADA has no authority or capacity on behalf of the AFL to:

(a) authorise or approve the use of any substance or method prohibited under this Code;

(b) give advice as to the application or interpretation of this Code; and

© bind or commit the AFL in any manner.

Essendon cannot therefore claim this defence even if could prove that someone at ASADA told Dank or anyone else before the programme was initiated (and I doubt such proof exists) for that matter that AOD-9604 wasn't a prohibited substance.

Section 26.3

The WADA Code shall be interpreted as an independent and autonomous text and not by reference to the existing law or statutes of the Signatories or governments.

Referral to a court won't help them unless we're talking about the Court of Arbitration for Sport (and I don't think CAS will show much sympathy for the bogus argument that the Bomber lackeys are attempting to foist on the public in this misguided PR campaign.

Of even more concern to the Bombers is this one:-

(n) Thymosin Beta 4: (TB-4) is a naturally occurring protein found in blood platelets, which play a role in the repair and regeneration of injured tissues. It has also been used to treat horses and been implicated in horse doping. There are theoretical reasons why this drug may be helpful to athletes, but there is no published evidence that TB-4 produces any benefit. It was added to the WADA banned list in 2011.

If you go to the AFL's charge sheet, you will find this point:-

27. In late May 2012 Dank discovered that the Thymosin he had been providing the players (Thymosin Beta-4) was in fact prohibited.

It might take time to put the case together, particularly if Dank refuses to co-operate) but if this single point is proved and evidence is produced as to which players had this stuff injected into them, then they might as well turn the lights out at Essendon (especially if the number of players is significant).

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

You should really check your mail. And your source is not very good.

1. WADA does not issue the criminal code in this country on doping. The Aust Govt legislates and funds ASADA to carry out WADA standards.

2. The ASADA claim of incorrect advice is just a claim with no reliable proof that it actually happened. It's no more than hearsay. It's not the biggest issue here. The elephant is the potential issue of infraction notices.

3. And relationship btw Vlad and News CEO is not good. Ho hum. It appears its News's problem that it instructed its journos to speak with ASADA. And why the hell wouldn't it. Given the Hun's lack lustre coverage of this saga I don't know what value getting third hand info off an AFL journalist would do. If theHun had anything they would have printed it by now.

4. And Danks is scum.....well I never!!!! The slur does not say much and it remains to be seen to what extent Danks is hit by ASADA and/or the ACC.

I believe the offences against the ASADA rules are civil not criminal. If I read things right the WADA code is agreed to by signatory countries and to enact that code in Australia the government legislated and created ASADA and the ASADA rules. Sports governing bodies then sign up and say yes we will comply. There are sports in Australia that havent signed on and dont comply. The offences are against ASADA rules which mirror the WADA code. If WADA intervenes it does so by appealing the ASADA decision to the Court of Arbitration for Sport who will then review the case and outcome.

The claim that ASADA gave the wrong advice in relation to AOD is not yet proven. I havent read any reports that the letter Dank supposedly recived from ASADA has come to light. From memory I think ASADA clamed they have never given incorrect advice however there is a suggestion from the ACC and Dank that the advice they may have given in relation to AOD may be incompleted advice. That by itself does not absolve the athelete of their responsibilities but may provide a mitigating factor or a possible defence of mistake in fact if that applies.

I think the joint investigation was a huge error by the AFL and ASADA and will never happen again. The news ltd vs AFL thing is just noise. Neither the AFL or any media outlet have any control over this issue now

[sue 8,457]

That's not actually correct

At that stage we just won't even worry about it any more

In my dementia you won't know what is going on in my mind. That vacant look will be me reliving 1964. With a bit of luck 20xx as well.

[daisycutter 28,624]

the good thing is the short term memory goes first

this enhances the long term memory so you can enjoy the 50's and 60's over and over

at least for those that were around then