Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Dees2014 2,377]

I think you are getting over excited at the lights and sirens

If WADA are so zealous on upholding the law, why haven't they challenged the soft NRL player penalties. They were nothing more than a tap on the wrist.

And on what basis under the ASADA rules will Hird get "life"? If he gets life then surely Thompson and Reid must receive the same penalty. The only thing keeping Hird at Essendon now is his threat of a crippling legal action for "wrongful dismissal". The claim would be huge and the battle bitter and protracted. However if players are indeed banned then the pressure to exit Hird will be incredible. His battered reputation will be unsalvsgeable.

And the players get four year bans??? Yeah right..

And everyone is getting excited over the Workcover investigation. It's nearly 2 years since the news broke about events that are 3 years old. The premise of ASADAs onus proof is for officials/ players to prove that they DID NOT take banned substances. I would have thought the issue for Workcover is to prove that the players actually DID take banned substances. The best Workcover could come up with is that the lack of record keeping may allude to a unsafe work places but I don't believe the case is razor sharp and I don't believe serious criminal sanctions will apply at all. Nor will it get to the High Court. And why hasn't the NSW equivalent of Workcover gone after Cronulla? Well ummmm.....

I agree that whatever the actual outcomes there is a likelihood that there will be player actions against EFC and the AFL. However the naive duplicity of the players in this whole saga does not make their actions a sure winner.

Bu the only winner out of this.....will be the lawyers....sadly.

The Cronulla issue is easy to answer: their drugs regime lasted weeks not years, it was not systematic, and did not seem to have the clear purpose to systematically cheating the way ESSENDON did. They also admitted guilt and did not fight the charges every inch of the way like ESEENDON. It was a very different program. The one thing WADA does not take kindly to is obstructionism and obfuscation. Both these things ESSENDON did systematically.

Hird gets life under the precedence set in other sports and other jurisdictions. There are plenty of parallels. I did not cover Thompson and Reid in my comments, but I rather think they will be treated a lot more leniently than Hird. After all they both raised doubts about the program several times during its execution but these were dismissed by Hird as being "negative". The players get a longer than standard sentences because the players association have been in lock-step with the EFC in their obfuscation. I admit a few broke ranks and they may go for as little as three months. Cooperation will be rewarded in these things.

Whispering Jack covered the Worksafe issue far better than I could (as he so often does). Worksafe in my view poses a far greater threat to the survival of the EFC than WADA.. I would suggest the investigation has not started yet as they (Worksafe) are waiting for the investigations of ASADA to be completed as much of their evidence will be drawn from their successful persecution. This to me at any rate makes sense.

At the end of the day, these are all a matter of opinion based on the evidence available. There are no right or wrong answers. I am very confident though, from what I am hearing from those who should know, that these views will be proven pretty close to the mark . We will see what happens, albeit not as quickly as many would like.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Dees2014

[Qwerty30 196]

It's Worksafe, not Workcover and its task is not to prove that the players DID take banned substances, only as to whether the club breached its duty of care to its players. Here are the relevant

Worksafe is sitting in the background waiting on the outcome of the ASADA investigation. The likely outcome if Essendon is found to have breached its DOC to the players is a hefty fine (no gaol term).

I don't know what the NSW equivalent has done in the case of NRL but my understanding is that the Cronulla programme was short lived and stopped as soon as the club doctor found out. The NRL, Cronulla and the players cooperated fully with the Investigation and negotiated a settlement without the need for a hearing and as a consequence, WADA decided not to appeal to CAS although it was not completely happy with the outcome.

Agreed, that in Essendon's case the penalties to the players, if found to have breached the code, are unlikely to be the maximum two years but they could result in some severe sanctions against people like Dank and any coaches and officials involved.

Tell Dees 2014 what Worksafe is. I was responding to him. And I fully realise that they have a primary duty of care. I wonder if any of the charges are mitigated by the players signing consents.

The length of the program does not change the underlying duty of care in respect of Workcover or it's NSW equivalent. The co operation of officials and players with ASADA would be neither here nor there in the consideration of the requirement to provide a safe work place. And it is interesting that WADA did not contest the ASADA penalty. There is no doubt the penalties for the EFC players will be more than Cronulla possibly with some element of backdating. But as we agreed it don't be 2 years.

[Qwerty30 196]

The Cronulla issue is easy to answer: their drugs regime lasted weeks not years, it was not systematic, and did not seem to have the clear purpose to systematically cheating the way ESSENDON did. They also admitted guilt and did not fight the charges every inch of the way like ESEENDON. It was a very different program. The one thing WADA does not take kindly to is obstructionism and obfuscation. Both these things ESSENDON did systematically.

Hird gets life under the precedence set in other sports and other jurisdictions. There are plenty of parallels. I did not cover Thompson and Reid in my comments, but I rather think they will be treated a lot more leniently than Hird. After all they both raised doubts about the program several times during its execution but these were dismissed by Hird as being "negative". The players get a longer than standard sentences because the players association have been in lock-step with the EFC in their obfuscation. I admit a few broke ranks and they may go for as little as three months. Cooperation will be rewarded in these things.

Whispering Jack covered the Worksafe issue far better than I could (as he so often does). Worksafe in my view poses a far greater threat to the survival of the EFC than WADA.. I would suggest the investigation has not started yet as they (Worksafe) are waiting for the investigations of ASADA to be completed as much of their evidence will be drawn from their successful persecution. This to me at any rate makes sense.

At the end of the day, these are all a matter of opinion based on the evidence available. There are no right or wrong answers. I am very confident though, from what I am hearing from those who should know, that these views will be proven pretty close to the mark . We will see what happens, albeit not as quickly as many would like.

The length of time of matter is irrelevant as to whether there was a breach of the duty of care. The Essendon players will get longer penalties for the reasons you mentioned. But 4 years......give me a break.

And the Worksafe matter is not as clear cut in the criminality that you have tried to fan flame.

And you have to get over the sole scapegoating of just one person for what you have send went on systematically for years. While I think Hird should be thrown out of sports, I am somewhat puzzled how you think ASADA will give him life. On what actual basis will this be done? If you want to really look at the evidence both Thompsons and Reid's limp efforts to address this matter are simply appalling fiasco from a legal duty of care and a professional one. As much as you like to floss, this is clearly more than just one persons folly.

[DemonFrog 1,354]

The length of time of matter is irrelevant as to whether there was a breach of the duty of care. The Essendon players will get longer penalties for the reasons you mentioned. But 4 years......give me a break.

And the Worksafe matter is not as clear cut in the criminality that you have tried to fan flame.

And you have to get over the sole scapegoating of just one person for what you have send went on systematically for years. While I think Hird should be thrown out of sports, I am somewhat puzzled how you think ASADA will give him life. On what actual basis will this be done? If you want to really look at the evidence both Thompsons and Reid's limp efforts to address this matter are simply appalling fiasco from a legal duty of care and a professional one. As much as you like to floss, this is clearly more than just one persons folly.

As per your request

[Lucifers Hero 39,966]

At the end of the day, these are all a matter of opinion based on the evidence available. There are no right or wrong answers. I am very confident though, from what I am hearing from those who should know, that these views will be proven pretty close to the mark . We will see what happens, albeit not as quickly as many would like.

Worksafe in my view poses a far greater threat to the survival of the EFC than WADA.. I would suggest the investigation has not started yet as they (Worksafe) are waiting for the investigations of ASADA to be completed as much of their evidence will be drawn from their successful persecution. This to me at any rate makes sense.

An interesting Freudian slip!

Edited November 23, 2014 by Lucifer's Hero

[jnrmac 20,104]

It's Worksafe, not Workcover and its task is not to prove that the players DID take banned substances, only as to whether the club breached its duty of care to its players. Here are the relevant provisions:

Worksafe is sitting in the background waiting on the outcome of the ASADA investigation. The likely outcome if Essendon is found to have breached its DOC to the players is a hefty fine (no gaol term).

Like the police sitting back and waiting for the internal bank investigation before they investigate the bank robbery.

Unlikely. Having said that WS are derelict in their duty. On the record as saying they began their investigation because of a complaint early in 2014!!!!! Beggars belief thatthey would sit back and wait fro a complaint 2 yrs after the event.

If my company did such a thing I would be in jail by now. Its an absolute disgrace if hey are sitting back waiting for someone else to do their job.

[chookrat 4,257]

The Cronulla issue is easy to answer: their drugs regime lasted weeks not years, it was not systematic, and did not seem to have the clear purpose to systematically cheating the way ESSENDON did. They also admitted guilt and did not fight the charges every inch of the way like ESEENDON. It was a very different program. The one thing WADA does not take kindly to is obstructionism and obfuscation. Both these things ESSENDON did systematically.

Hird gets life under the precedence set in other sports and other jurisdictions. There are plenty of parallels. I did not cover Thompson and Reid in my comments, but I rather think they will be treated a lot more leniently than Hird. After all they both raised doubts about the program several times during its execution but these were dismissed by Hird as being "negative". The players get a longer than standard sentences because the players association have been in lock-step with the EFC in their obfuscation. I admit a few broke ranks and they may go for as little as three months. Cooperation will be rewarded in these things.

Whispering Jack covered the Worksafe issue far better than I could (as he so often does). Worksafe in my view poses a far greater threat to the survival of the EFC than WADA.. I would suggest the investigation has not started yet as they (Worksafe) are waiting for the investigations of ASADA to be completed as much of their evidence will be drawn from their successful persecution. This to me at any rate makes sense.

At the end of the day, these are all a matter of opinion based on the evidence available. There are no right or wrong answers. I am very confident though, from what I am hearing from those who should know, that these views will be proven pretty close to the mark . We will see what happens, albeit not as quickly as many would like.

I am staggered that the Dr Reid gets let off. He is the club Doctor, the primary person at the club responsible for the medical welfare of its players, and he failed to followup on concerns he raise about players being injected with substances not approved for human use.

[beelzebub 23,380]

As dumbfounded as you Chookrat.

[Dees2014 2,377]

The length of time of matter is irrelevant as to whether there was a breach of the duty of care. The Essendon players will get longer penalties for the reasons you mentioned. But 4 years......give me a break.

And the Worksafe matter is not as clear cut in the criminality that you have tried to fan flame.

And you have to get over the sole scapegoating of just one person for what you have send went on systematically for years. While I think Hird should be thrown out of sports, I am somewhat puzzled how you think ASADA will give him life. On what actual basis will this be done? If you want to really look at the evidence both Thompsons and Reid's limp efforts to address this matter are simply appalling fiasco from a legal duty of care and a professional one. As much as you like to floss, this is clearly more than just one persons folly.

Scapegoating of one person? Now you can give ME a break. My major beef with Hird is that he instigated the cheating, and when he was found out, HE not only protested his innocence, but the contested everything in the courts and elsewhere. If he had have done what Evans, the AFL , and his PR advice at the time was suggesting this would have all been over by the end of 2013. Instead, he and his sociopathic wife sought to contest the obvious, and has prolonged it quite unnecessarily, and now look like taking it into 2016 and beyond.

Hird is responsible for this - no one else. What will happen though is the ESSENDON board, the players, staff and supporters will be the victims. Hird will retire quietly with his millions, leaving victims all over the place.

I have previously written, that Hird will be penalised, as will the players and staff. The EFC will go into liquidation after they are hit with writs from all and sundry. They will survive as a different entity but still under the EFC name, but a pale imitation of their former selves. If you think this is scapegoating one person, you are the only person who would think that. Hird, the board, the players are all in one way or another responsible, but Hird was the instigator and therefore should bear the major portion of the blame. He will survive, but not as coach, but many of his victims will be scared for the rest of their lives.

You clearly think he is a scapegoat. Well you clearly have very different values to me.

[Dees2014 2,377]

An interesting Freudian slip!

Quite lucifer. Well spotted!

[Qwerty30 196]

Scapegoating of one person? Now you can give ME a break. My major beef with Hird is that he instigated the cheating, and when he was found out, HE not only protested his innocence, but the contested everything in the courts and elsewhere. If he had have done what Evans, the AFL , and his PR advice at the time was suggesting this would have all been over by the end of 2013. Instead, he and his sociopathic wife sought to contest the obvious, and has prolonged it quite unnecessarily, and now look like taking it into 2016 and beyond.

Hird is responsible for this - no one else. What will happen though is the ESSENDON board, the players, staff and supporters will be the victims. Hird will retire quietly with his millions, leaving victims all over the place.

I have previously written, that Hird will be penalised, as will the players and staff. The EFC will go into liquidation after they are hit with writs from all and sundry. They will survive as a different entity but still under the EFC name, but a pale imitation of their former selves. If you think this is scapegoating one person, you are the only person who would think that. Hird, the board, the players are all in one way or another responsible, but Hird was the instigator and therefore should bear the major portion of the blame. He will survive, but not as coach, but many of his victims will be scared for the rest of their lives.

You clearly think he is a scapegoat. Well you clearly have very different values to me.

I have said Hird is culpable many times but your fantasy that he is sole culprit only indicates what little grasp you have of the matter. And spare that the Board is a victim of this. At the very start there lax governance of the football department, their blind faith in the messiah and their extraordinary combative and aggressive attitude to the AFL and ASADA makes them definitely having blood on their hands.

And if it does get bad then I can't see the AFL being able just to fold up the current EFC entity, walk away from its debts and just hang up a new shingle with EFC. What a dream world you are in! If the writs fly any litigant adviser will know that EFC will have past a certain point limited means and if the writs fly large they will also include the AFL.

Now let's see what we have

Players getting 4 years penalty.......

Worksafe investigation will usher serious criminal penalties and a High Court involvement.......

EFC Board are victims in all this......

EFC into liquidation.......

Are you able to put a date on when the world ends?

[Willmoy1947 4,099]

Presumption of innocence ..Nil

Co-operation........................Nil

Remorse..............................Nil

Example to the world...........Nil

Guilt or Innocence " O tempora o mores"

[monoccular 17,432]

I am staggered that the Dr Reid gets let off. He is the club Doctor, the primary person at the club responsible for the medical welfare of its players, and he failed to followup on concerns he raise about players being injected with substances not approved for human use.

The Medical Board / AHPRA are being as tardy and neglectful as are WorkSafe (or whatever they are called this week). He (appears to have ) failed in his primary duty, which is to to care for his patients and look after their welfare and instead put the employers' priorities first. E P I C F A I L !

An interesting Freudian slip!

Quite lucifer. Well spotted!

Freudian, and GWBushian - he made the same comment after the September 11 attacks - "we will find Bin Laden (which he didn't by the way) and persecute him"!

[Crompton's the man 659]

The Medical Board / AHPRA are being as tardy and neglectful as are WorkSafe (or whatever they are called this week). He (appears to have ) failed in his primary duty, which is to to care for his patients and look after their welfare and instead put the employers' priorities first. E P I C F A I L !

Could be as simple as the possible fact that no one has made a complaint to the relevant body

[Demoneyes 562]

Why the hell is this thread still going on DL? Life must be a misery!

[old dee 23,801]

Why the hell is this thread still going on DL? Life must be a misery!

Amen

[Whispering_Jack 30,239]

Why the hell is this thread still going on DL? Life must be a misery!

I suppose it will go on until there is a resolution one way or the other and the repercussions have been felt and assessed.

I think it has a fair way to go.

[DemonFrog 1,354]

Why the hell is this thread still going on DL? Life must be a misery!

[What 18,810]

Why the hell is this thread still going on DL? Life must be a misery!

Not sure if serious

Its only the biggest AFL story in history which is coming to a head soon and with plenty left to play out even after players are banned

Every teams forum would have a similarly huge thread on this saga

Looking forward to a full investigation into the James Hird - Shane Charter relationship in Hirds playing days and the 'dietary advice' he received

Edited November 23, 2014 by hogans_heroes

[old dee 23,801]

Not sure if serious

Its only the biggest AFL story in history which is coming to a head soon and with plenty left to play out even after players are banned

Every teams forum would have a similarly huge thread on this saga

Looking forward to a full investigation into the James Hird - Shane Charter relationship in Hirds playing days and the 'dietary advice' he received

But nothing happens for months at a time and still we waffle on about it.

[Cards13 9,117]

Nothing of real note has occurred for the MFC for years and yet here we are waffling...

[DemonFrog 1,354]

But nothing happens for months at a time and still we waffle on about it.

Its important to get the details right OD

Plus we can never mock these guys enough.

This Club turned from I Club I once seriously considered supporting to a bunch of drug cheating cult worshipping flogs. All they need to add to achieve this outcome was a little Mr T.

I now dislike MessyDrugs with a real passion.

[ManDee 7,162]

But nothing happens for months at a time and still we waffle on about it.

Great isn't it. It is a bit like life, nothing much happens for months at a time, but we still waffle on.

And continuing with the food metaphor. I am a great believer in the slow cook method, and this is turning into the ultimate slow cook.

The EFC will be so cooked that the meat will fall off the bones.

[sue 9,107]

But nothing happens for months at a time and still we waffle on about it.

Because every so often some journo publishes another ridiculous article, eg. the Bottle, and it is hard to resist commenting on it.

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

But nothing happens for months at a time and still we waffle on about it.

Becaues it is intersting, provides and insight into the AFL and will have long term ramifications for Australian sport including the Dees.