Training - Monday 19th December, 2011

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I will disagree with a few people, if off the current topic and say that Cale Morton looks * a bit * chunker than last year imo. Just from a few photo's and the christmas video, mainly his face looks fatter in a sence, more like his brothers, who are built more strongly, 21-22 years old and he may just be filling out, one hopes.

continue

[bing181 8,204]

Anybody here who thinks that (advanced) sports science isn't central to elite sports training and performance is just kidding themselves. We don't have Misson, Craig etc. for nothing.

Hard to see how acknowledging that is somehow excusing players.

[rpfc 27,591]

...because we've had too many people from the supporters up who tolerate mediocrity.

This old chest nut...

Is it we who tolerate it - whatever 'mediocrity' equals - or has it been those at the club?

Or have they been unable to compete for decades? Or unwilling?

Who is to blame?

I don't know, but I do know that supporters 'tolerating mediocrity' is not the reason we have not won a flag since '64.

[Axis of Bob 10,310]

I'd say a fair bit of it would be because we've had too many people from the supporters up who tolerate mediocrity.

Just a slight correction, I believe that the empty cliche you were looking for was 'accept mediocrity', not 'tolerate mediocrity'.

It is an easy mistake to make, but it pays to be accurate when expressing yourself through the majesty of rant.

[Jarka 767]

Thanks for a bit of a chuckle nasher & co.

To be fair to 'the master', over the last couple of seasons Davey's 2nd efforts in matches has been extremely poor, which could be the catalyst for his comments. However, as already highlighted several times it's a mistake to see something and make quick assumptions without all the inside knowledge. All you are doing is making uneducated guesses.

Davey has had a couple of injury interrupted seasons, he's starting from a very low base, and one thing that I do know is that Misson has every session planned for each player, he knows exactly how much he wants from them every time they train. If Davey isn't doing full sessions you can bet your arse there's a bloody good reason for it.

Back to the uneducated guesses, he could still be recovering from an injury or they're taking him very slowly because of his injury history.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

This old chest nut...

Is it we who tolerate it - whatever 'mediocrity' equals - or has it been those at the club?

Or have they been unable to compete for decades? Or unwilling?

Who is to blame?

I don't know, but I do know that supporters 'tolerating mediocrity' is not the reason we have not won a flag since '64.

I don't want to get caught up in this again but I will say there have been lengthy periods where the club has drifted aimlessly and the supporters didn't put any pressure on the administrations to do anything about it. We were apathetic and the administrations were incompetent.

On the issue of fast or slow twitch I haven't got a clue; on the issue of Flash running last I must say I'm concerned for his future.

[bjDee 1,247]

Just a slight correction, I believe that the empty cliche you were looking for was 'accept mediocrity', not 'tolerate mediocrity'.

OK, so the criteria for a successful club widens. Not only do we need 'elite skills' players who are 'flag core' (D'land - banned phrases), and a coaching panel who is 'performance oriented' and 'runs deep' (Cam Schwab, yearbook 2011) and wants the team to be 'the hardest to play against' (M Neeld presser), but we need 'mediocrity rejecting' supporters. Works for me. Looks like we mugs on the sidelines have the easiest part.

[Nasher 33,133]

On the issue of fast or slow twitch I haven't got a clue; on the issue of Flash running last I must say I'm concerned for his future.

I don't have a clue either - and I think we've clearly sorted out in this thread who has a clue and who doesn't. What I can observe though is that even when Flash was playing exceptional footy through periods of 2009 and 2010, never at any stage did he do it through playing long amounts of time covering huge amounts of territory like we expect of (say) Jones and Moloney, he did so by very short, very damaging bursts. Blease is in exactly the same boat; he's almost a complete reincarnation of Davey and surprise surprise, he struggles with the running too.

It's easy to say (and I'm not suggesting you are Robbie, but others have) that Davey is struggling with the running therefore he's going to stink it up this year and he's a disgrace blah blah blah, but I expect that this has always been the case for Flash and probably always well be. Sure there might be room for improvement - even considerable improvement (and again I re-iterate that I don't know), but based on how he plays and what his strengths are, I expect that this is just something close to "situation normal" and the science posted by Webber and Nascent lends credence to this.

To point out that he's a lot worse off than Nicholson as "the master" did is laughable when Nicho has, by all reports, been the standout on the track this year.

[DeeSpencer 23,317]

I don't have a clue either - and I think we've clearly sorted out in this thread who has a clue and who doesn't. What I can observe though is that even when Flash was playing exceptional footy through periods of 2009 and 2010, never at any stage did he do it through playing long amounts of time covering huge amounts of territory like we expect of (say) Jones and Moloney, he did so by very short, very damaging bursts. Blease is in exactly the same boat; he's almost a complete reincarnation of Davey and surprise surprise, he struggles with the running too.

It's easy to say (and I'm not suggesting you are Robbie, but others have) that Davey is struggling with the running therefore he's going to stink it up this year and he's a disgrace blah blah blah, but I expect that this has always been the case for Flash and probably always well be. Sure there might be room for improvement - even considerable improvement (and again I re-iterate that I don't know), but based on how he plays and what his strengths are, I expect that this is just something close to "situation normal" and the science posted by Webber and Nascent lends credence to this.

To point out that he's a lot worse off than Nicholson as "the master" did is laughable when Nicho has, by all reports, been the standout on the track this year.

You continue to make excuses, it's ridiculous! I said Nicholson and Bennell. They are 2 guys with Davey like pace but also reasonable endurance. I'll add in Bartram if you like. Sure Nicho has been in the first group, but Bennell was in the second group. Davey was last in the last group and by a fair margin. The point I'm making is there are plenty of super quick guys on our list who aren't coming dead last, and they aren't senior players either.

I'll take you back to Davey's exceptional football in 2009/2010, what did we all bemoan? I'd say it was his lack of consistency and his inability to shrug off a good tagger. Hmmm I wonder how he would have gone if he had extra fitness. Why shouldn't Davey cover large distances like any other midfielder or half forward/half back and then use his speed in bursts. That's what Adam Goodes does and it works well for him. Same goes for Adam Cooney when he was at his best. Not to mention a Gary Ablett or Chris Judd (pre groins especially).

Blease is coming off injuries an no preseasons so I have pardoned him so far. What did Carlton do with Chris Yarran? Did they say ok you can just finish last all preseason and then you'll improve and have a great year? I doubt it, they got him fit and then he improved dramatically. Blease is hopefully getting fitter but he's coming from a long way back, I don't expect to see the best on him til after next preseason.

The only excuse for Davey is he's coming back from injury. So as it's before Christmas I'll give him time and I'm not hanging him out to dry yet, I'm just very very concerned. But if he's still last in late Feb or March then do you think it will all be ok because he's a speed athlete? Then I will say he's in for a poor year.

[Lutz 76]

You often make good posts master, but I'd have to say that in this thread you've been outclassed.

[Whispering_Jack 28,025]

Praise be to science.

Science has never been my strong suit but the subject of fast twitch/slow twitch has always interested me since the days of my involvement in athletics. I remember reading an article that explained in scientific terms the different types of athletes originating from different parts of Africa and how the best runners from Kenya, Ethiopia and Tanzania on the East Coast were distance runners while those from the west like Nigeria and Ghana were sprinters (most of the black African slaves taken to the Americas were from the western parts of Africa and hence they produced great sprinters and boxers among other things).

I've always wondered whether these attributes in people were genetic or whether people could be trained to not only have the endurance of distance runners but also the sheer power and pace of sprinters. There are few players in our sport who have that combination of both which makes them gifted athletes and if these can be combined with skill and mental strength then I reckon you have the makings of a champion. 

I'd be interested to know from the scientists as to how far you can train up the speedsters like Blease, Davey and Jurrah to improve their endurance and whether, by doing so, you might be in danger of taking the edge off their pace? (I suppose this is the same question demon-4life is also asking)

Also, if these are the areas of expertise of the sports scientists at the club in Craig and Misson, how long would it take for us to catch up to Collingwood which appears to have a substantial lead over the other clubs in terms of best practice in this area?

[Pink Freud 325]

It seems that all clubs trying to develop a much harder edge in their playing groups and were going to see a much tougher style of play in the AFL. Makes me even happier to see Neeld and Craig running the show.

[Webber 10,178]

Science has never been my strong suit but the subject of fast twitch/slow twitch has always interested me since the days of my involvement in athletics. I remember reading an article that explained in scientific terms the different types of athletes originating from different parts of Africa and how the best runners from Kenya, Ethiopia and Tanzania on the East Coast were distance runners while those from the west like Nigeria and Ghana were sprinters (most of the black African slaves taken to the Americas were from the western parts of Africa and hence they produced great sprinters and boxers among other things).

I've always wondered whether these attributes in people were genetic or whether people could be trained to not only have the endurance of distance runners but also the sheer power and pace of sprinters. There are few players in our sport who have that combination of both which makes them gifted athletes and if these can be combined with skill and mental strength then I reckon you have the makings of a champion.

I'd be interested to know from the scientists as to how far you can train up the speedsters like Blease, Davey and Jurrah to improve their endurance and whether, by doing so, you might be in danger of taking the edge off their pace? (I suppose this is the same question demon-4life is also asking)

Also, if these are the areas of expertise of the sports scientists at the club in Craig and Misson, how long would it take for us to catch up to Collingwood which appears to have a substantial lead over the other clubs in terms of best practice in this area?

No simple answer to that WJ. You can train them up as far you can train them up! There is potential, and a limit to the ultimate realisation of that potential (at least without performance enhancing drugs). There is no real risk of loss of pace, other than if you spend all their training energy and time on endurance, thus leaving their trump card merely underdeveloped. They would still be superquick, but maybe not with that freak edge. That's a significant factor mind you, and whilst we want lots of allrounders, as a team of 22 players, you do want some high end freak performers. To acheive this, it might be necessary to prioritise and maximise the speed of Sam Blease for example. It may be that his endurance capacity remains less than what it could absolutely be. To develop him that way would be a judgement call, and one dictated by the team dynamic I would suggest.

On the issue of Aaron Davey, we all recognise that he was rubbish last year, but anybody who thinks they know how his pre Christmas training form influences his proper season form, given the multi-factorial nature of what creates a footballer, and such a seemingly engmatic one as Davey, is kidding themselves.

'the master' can reduce it to presumptuous simplicities all he likes, but those of us outside the club frankly have no idea, and I would suggest those at the club might not know until a month or so before the real deal begins.......

[rpfc 27,591]

Maybe Davey and Blease are comparatively struggling.

And by that I mean that I can run a 3km time trial in 13 and a half minutes which is pretty good for a guy my size but am pathetically slow compared to the similarily sized 22 year old in my team destined for bigger things.

Davey compared to elite endurance runners (which we have) is going to look like he is struggling.

[Hannibal 5,814]

No simple answer to that WJ. You can train them up as far you can train them up! There is potential, and a limit to the ultimate realisation of that potential (at least without performance enhancing drugs). There is no real risk of loss of pace, other than if you spend all their training energy and time on endurance, thus leaving their trump card merely underdeveloped. They would still be superquick, but maybe not with that freak edge. That's a significant factor mind you, and whilst we want lots of allrounders, as a team of 22 players, you do want some high end freak performers. To acheive this, it might be necessary to prioritise and maximise the speed of Sam Blease for example. It may be that his endurance capacity remains less than what it could absolutely be. To develop him that way would be a judgement call, and one dictated by the team dynamic I would suggest.

On the issue of Aaron Davey, we all recognise that he was rubbish last year, but anybody who thinks they know how his pre Christmas training form influences his proper season form, given the multi-factorial nature of what creates a footballer, and such a seemingly engmatic one as Davey, is kidding themselves.

'the master' can reduce it to presumptuous simplicities all he likes, but those of us outside the club frankly have no idea, and I would suggest those at the club might not know until a month or so before the real deal begins.......

Excellent post. In essence we don't know. Some may lean to the left (the master) and many on here will automatically have the club and player's defence and interests at the forefront - whilst also magnanimously acknowledging their own ignorance in the matter. Defending the club and an incumbent coach is seemingly auto-cue for some (lots) on here.

Despite his 'fast twitch' fibres I suspect that Davey is well behind where he should be, but I don't put it all down to him. The previous coaching group didn't train the players hard enough, and certainly not the senior players. I also realise that courage takes many forms and one of them is to push yourself to extreme limits when it comes to running. I'll defer on commenting about Davey when it comes to this matter.

[bing181 8,204]

Despite his 'fast twitch' fibres I suspect that Davey is well behind where he should be, but I don't put it all down to him.

I've wondered for a while now whether Davey's broken leg in 2010 hasn't resulted in him losing some speed and edge - and everything that would go with that. Unless I'm mistaken, he only has one year left on his contract, which you would imagine being a fairly decent incentive to perform at your max.

[bing181 8,204]

No simple answer to that WJ. You can train them up as far you can train them up! There is potential, and a limit to the ultimate realisation of that potential (at least without performance enhancing drugs).

As an aside (to add to your excellent post), one of the points about drug-taking in sport is that many of the prohibited substances enable you to train harder and/or train more. They don't enhance performance per se, but enable quicker and better recovery.

[Go the Biff 3,177]

I've wondered for a while now whether Davey's broken leg in 2010 hasn't resulted in him losing some speed and edge - and everything that would go with that. Unless I'm mistaken, he only has one year left on his contract, which you would imagine being a fairly decent incentive to perform at your max.

I always thought he lost a bit of zip when he blew his second hammy. Those thrilling rundowns pretty much dried up. After that the midfield / defence experiment started & perhaps it was thought that for Davey & the team, it was better to focus on his other great asset, his field kicking, rather than his out & out speed.

There is another thread which offers a reason for the manner in which Davey is training, allegedly from a "source". I hope it's right because (providing the hammies hold), I think Flash going back to the future will be critical for our forward line.

Enjoying this thread though. Wonderful combination of information & entertainment

[Macca 16,173]

I think all my twitch fibres have deserted me

All mine as well except that fast twitch one that reaches for that glass of red .

[pringle 42]

Fast twitch and slow twitch fiber muscle fiber proportions don't tell the entire story. The VO2max is THE determiner of endurance (which, is affected significantly by fiber type I agree, but also by other factors - eg. efficiency of running technique). There's plenty of literature on the subject available on the internet I'm sure. I don't have the time to elaborate.

But just to clarify, I'm not trying to dispute anything that others have said. All good info. Just that VO2max needs to be considered in the discussion and that this is influenced by more than just fiber type. And though a person's VO2 max is significantly determined by genetics, ultimately, the ability to achieve the individual's highest potential VO2 max depends on their training. Now I'm happy to leave that to others to discuss... I'm in a tropical paradise trying to destroy my own VO2max with alcohol and 2nd hand smoke in night time bars

[monoccular 16,290]

This old chest nut...

Is it we who tolerate it - whatever 'mediocrity' equals - or has it been those at the club?

Or have they been unable to compete for decades? Or unwilling?

Who is to blame?

I don't know, but I do know that supporters 'tolerating mediocrity' is not the reason we have not won a flag since '64.

Well, whatever -- now we have the top scientists getting our players into the best physical shape, and a coach who at least professes to be intolerant of anything other than 100% efforts -- so surely we can only expect marked improvement over the next couple of years.

Fantastic scientific input thanks to Nascent and others too - thanks.

[Whispering_Jack 28,025]

Thanks guys and happy birthday pringle.

On Webber's advice that there's no real risk of loss of pace, I might go for a leisurely 4k jog tomorrow morning.  

On a more serious note, I heard Aaron Davey speak at one of the Liam Jurrah book launches and he freely admitted that his injuries over the years were taking their toll.

The suggestion that his training load is being regulated to take his age and injury history into account sounds reasonable.

[skills32 229]

I have just posted this on another thread,

'Bit of back to the future here.

I umpired in many of his u14 & u16's games in Darwin and he mostly played in the forward pocket where no one could stop him. He had no speed whatsoever then but his baulking and weaving was something else to watch.

And he was skinny as a rake; all skin and bones' but it is more suited here.

Aaron has never had endurance skills and as a matter of fact neither did his father. Aaron is a carbon copy of his dad who was a complete footballer in his day.

He could have played in the big time but no one knew about him or a few of the other NT boys back then.

[Webber 10,178]

Thanks guys and happy birthday pringle.

On Webber's advice that there's no real risk of loss of pace, I might go for a leisurely 4k jog tomorrow morning.

On a more serious note, I heard Aaron Davey speak at one of the Liam Jurrah book launches and he freely admitted that his injuries over the years were taking their toll.

The suggestion that his training load is being regulated to take his age and injury history into account sounds reasonable.

All you need to do WJ is slip 5 or 6 speed bursts into that 4km, get a great calorie burn going, do it again tomorrow, then give that Christmas pudding a proper hammering! Cheers

[Webber 10,178]

Fast twitch and slow twitch fiber muscle fiber proportions don't tell the entire story. The VO2max is THE determiner of endurance (which, is affected significantly by fiber type I agree, but also by other factors - eg. efficiency of running technique). There's plenty of literature on the subject available on the internet I'm sure. I don't have the time to elaborate.

But just to clarify, I'm not trying to dispute anything that others have said. All good info. Just that VO2max needs to be considered in the discussion and that this is influenced by more than just fiber type. And though a person's VO2 max is significantly determined by genetics, ultimately, the ability to achieve the individual's highest potential VO2 max depends on their training. Now I'm happy to leave that to others to discuss... I'm in a tropical paradise trying to destroy my own VO2max with alcohol and 2nd hand smoke in night time bars

Entirely true Pringle......I threw some stuff about VO2 max and lactate threshold into an earlier post, and they are completely essential to modern football, and can be enhanced in any type of player. Repeat maximal efforts for the 'fast twitch' players deep into the last quarter are entirely dependant on a better VO2 max.......