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I was lucky enough to spend last Christmas with a Dee. He was shattered. More exhausted than he had ever been (and this was 4 days after it). His body was covered in blister ans scars that impacted on the training he was able to do afterwards. He said he hoped he would never have to do it again and he couldn't really see the great advantage it would give the team. This is from a fella that pushes his body to the limit all the time, has been through awful injuries and come back again even stronger. I am prepared to take his word for it that it didn't help his game training in any way, shape or form.

re Friday training - impressed by Balic, good decisions and disposal by foot. Has the hand moves in tight that can send opponents the wrong way. Oskar Baker is a smooth mover and liked what I saw of his kicking. At the AGM he said that when he was cut by the Brisbane Academy he was only 160cm, so no wonder they let him go.

Quit telling people to ‘move on’ Saty, posters are entitled to their own opinion, no matter how much you disagree with it. Personally I enjoy reading the different opinions and view points.

In a sport and culture obsessed with proving your manhood by literally head butting bricks I actually find it refreshing that a group of highly talented young men can stand up and call [censored]. I will however be expecting them to win games next year that they lost this year. Only time will tell

It's been replaced by the full day spa experience at Peninsula Hot Springs with a dry needling option.

Exactly, the players obviously felt any perceived benefits were outweighed by the potential for injuries and the deconditioning that would occur especially considering theyre on a break after this. Better to keep their conditioning and fitness base up to hit preseason hard on return in Jan. Storm in a tea cup.

You're going off your head without knowing all the circumstances. Save the hysterics for if we miss finals. I get it. The manner we bowed out last season was another disappointment in a long line of disappointments. But there is a danger of letting the club's history cloud judgement of the present. The Petracca/Oliver generation don't own the last decade of failure.

I think a lot of people are missing the main point here. I am actually quite happy the camp isn’t happening, i said my bit last year. Sleep deprivation is a crock of sh... and can be very dangerous BUT the main point here is Goodwin and The FD wanted the camp to go ahead, the Head Coach, after our pathetic performance in Round 23 (which it was) obviously is trying to mentally challenge the list. And his authority here has been over ruled This is not good in December... small rumbles can get larger. I fully expect a very tough January and Feb now, otherwise Goody could well become redundant mighty fast.....

Didn't follow instructions? While sleep deprived? who would have thought? To be fair we don't know if there were instructions or not or if the sleep deprivation part occurred at that part of the camp. The sleep deprivation thing is such a heap of horse [censored]. More and more research has been done over the years and missing sleep is a stupid thing to do. A number of posters last year pointed out how stupid these camps were. A close mate did one about 8 years ago and had staff yelling at him to push through the pain to finish a 25km loaded march. Once he finished he took his boots off and his feat were wrecked. Blisters so bad he could only wear thongs for the next 2 weeks while they healed. He said he got off lightly compared to a few of the others in his team.

I don't know why the coaches haven't cut our players some slack considering the gruelling finals campaign they have just--- oh right. Never mind. The Sydney playing group have runs on the board and just possibly have a better idea of what it takes to succeed. Yes. The players have just managed to put that extra bit of pressure on themselves to do so.

What? A Carlton supporter hangs [censored] on you and you got embarrassed for supporting our great club? F'ing weak. My Carlton supporter mate tried to give me a bit a few years ago. I punched him in the face and said 'I support Melbourne you salary cap cheating scum!' Never tried anything again.

boot camps are [censored]. team building exercise my foot. as if 100 x 100m sprints plus all manner of other gruelling and punishing fitness conditioning doesn't bind the players together tighter than a mafia gang. better to spend the time on goal kicking practice. BUT after our atrocious finish to the season, they should be putting up their hands to run through brick walls. not worrying about what effect the mortar might have on their nail polish. they should be trying to demonstrate to each other, bugger the rest of the football world, that they are so upset, so burnt, so hungry for success that they will go through any hardship without a backward step, to leap over that final gap instead of inching ever closer to it like zeno's achilles. but here we are. the appearance is that they have run sooking to the AFLPA to try to get them off the hook! whether that's the reality or not, that is the appearance, so it becomes the reality. the leadership group need a good hard look at themselves are they swanning about town, chatting up the girls with can't-fail lines like "hey babe. i'm kind of a big deal. yeah, that's right. I nearly played in finals this year." the inmates do not run the asylum. it's a recipe for downfall and calamity in a team sport. 186. training the house down, having "not the youngest" list, getting Lever, shifting Watts .... all utter irrelevancies until this club can rid itself of the mental softness that has afflicted it for years and is apparently still going strong.

Cherry picking? Please. Don't make me laugh. The players have raised concerns about a camp that causes injuries and hampered conditioning last year, and they have every right to do so. If a large majority of the players walked away from that camp and felt worse than they did before, then something is wrong. The players aren't complaining about anything else - many have come back in peak condition, we have minimal injury concerns and it sounds like they are extremely happy with how the pre-season is tracking. Why cancelling a needless camp is classified as 'cherry picking' when to put in effort is beyond me. This is no different to teaching a student - you need to find out what makes them tick and how to get the absolute best out of them. Goodwin has learned a valuable lesson as a young coach and he now knows that a camp run by people outside the footy world is of no benefit to the team. Onwards and upwards.

Ex SASR member here Smart decision from the playing group

No credit to me for this report - it is a copy of 'Proper Gander's' post on bigfooty: "Okay so I have quizzed Ancient about training today so here are the things I learned: Kent and Salem absent - probably hiding from Goody following the great boot camp mutiny. The rehab group included Hogan, Weed, Tommy - also the new dudes were separate from the main group doing some drills with Crossey and Garland, apart from the Casey guy whose name I can’t ever remember how to spell. Is it Fritsch? Anyway he was with the main group. Ancient didn’t see Petracca training at all but he must have done stuff with the rehab group early because he had a nice chat with him as he (Ancient) arrived and Trac was heading back to AAMI. He was shirtless so presumably had been running or something, unless he is just your run-of-the-mill partial nudist. Hogan and Weed had a sort of goal kicking competition which Hogan won apparently. It sounds like they were doing the same sort of drills as previous sessions. So they spent some time split into groups of defenders, mids and forwards doing things. Lewis is grouped with defenders at present. Ancient reckons Lever looks excellent, and is very vocal and encouraging and so forth. A very self confident young man. He also singled out Brayshaw and Oliver for training house down honours. There was lots of running and then some match simulation type drills, moving the ball quickly through the corridor. The general impression was that everyone looked sharp so we had better win lots of things or I’ll get angry. Apparently McCartney gave Pig a mighty serve for something or other - lots of authentic yelling and “if you don’t like it you can leave” stuff. Don’t know what provoked it, but Hibberd didn’t leave so presumably learned to like whatever it was that needed liking. That’s pretty much all the detail I have except for the report that the Santa Claus seemed creepy somehow and Daisy was having her photo taken with about a million kids". ...Thanks 'Proper Gander' - a very entertaining report.

Absolute rubbish. Can't be bothered pointing out why. Except to say it is ludicrous to suggest that a player that was as poor as you are saying he is would play all season in a team pushing for finals. Ludicrous

Came on to see if anyone was reporting from the final training session (that's really appreciated by those who aren't in Melbourne and can't make it) and again it's another pissing competition about OMac. Please take it to it's own thread FFS

Jack Watts wanted to stay at the Dees. For his entire career. Plainly, he was exited from the club. He handled it with class. Whatever people’s views here about his on-field performances, he (and Trenners) we’re without doubt committed to the MFC. He deserves our respect for this. To now rubbish him shows lack of class. Clearly, he has to make comments such as the comments reported in that article. In fact, I expect he actually needs to believe it himself from a psychological perspective - to not think this would probably prolong the disappointment of having been exited from the club. I also expect that, confirmation bias here aside, the betting odds will reflect the accuracy of his statement as to which club is closer to the flag.

No pre race update so far on the Zephyr, trainer might be getting a bit lazy. Let's hope for an overdue victory.

In order for the Tri or F4 to pay a half decent dividend in the race, a couple/few roughies need to feature in the finish - that's what I'm banking on. At this time of the year I usually just restrict myself to the one race to bet on - had a look at Villiers Stakes at Randwick but couldn't find a combo that satisfied. Anyway, good luck at Caulfield today Wadda and good luck with the Zephyr @Demon77

Oh yeah, i also wanted to mention now the Spring Carnival is over, you can catch every race live on line these days if anybody didnt know......... (Doesn't cover Ascot tho). https://www.racing.com/live-vision.aspx

I really like Silverstream also. Guess you are right, many good runners in this race. Boxed a few up for a trifecta....for the rest ill concentrate on Caulfield and see how we go.

Yes, i was just saying its an unknown, but the weight advantage is great. There are actually some good races on today at Caulfield. I like Crystal Dreamer in the race after Dans........have put both in my quaddie! I also had a little go at R2 Good Therapy into R6 My Psychiatrist .....couldnt resist.

The AJ Scahill Stakes (race 7 Ascot, 8.10pm) is down to 8 runners with the scratching of Variation so I'll be looking for a greater percentage in the Tri & F4. Settled on 2 horses to win ... Silverstream and for a bit of value, Zuccheros. However, any of the other 6 horses can feature so it's then just a matter of which ones to leave out! Another value runner Django ran 2nd to Zuccheros over the 1400m last start and is lightly raced this campaign. Both value runners are up in the weights though.

I don't know much about this hockey apart from the fact the horse will carry 52kg after the claim. Some of the connections seem happy that Rhys McLeod isn't taking the ride though.

Im sure your "mate" is confident, and probably not without reason......however, it can be a demon (intentional pun) of a track and really seems to suit some horses although Ive never really known why. If hes had a good win there however, that is a good thing. All his other runs may have had various other factors against him. 11/1 is about right i guess, maybe slightly short. Its a good 4, so should suit. Im not totally sold on the jockey, but i really wouldnt know.

Plenty of players get injured during training sessions as well. Let’s cancel them then.

Hi Wadda, whilst we wait for the latest my mate thinks he's a decent chance. Although one of his best wins came at this track his overall record at Caulfield is pretty average to say the least so that's a concern. Dan should return to his usual racing pattern today of being on pace after the good draw. Good each way odds at the moment but when a horse hasn't won for a long time it's hard to back it with any confidence.

Ok thanks D77. Standing by for the late mail.

This strikes me as the kind of thing that will have miffed the coach in the short term but will have been long forgotten by the time January rolls around. The part to me that seems non-ideal is that the players were notified so late, so it was left until the last minute to be dealt with, but it's only a small quibble in the scheme of things. There's room for improvement in the communication between the coaching and playing groups. Panning the players or the club seems unnecessary. Projecting it in to a Neeld like rift between the coaches and players is absurd.

So some of us are appalled that the players won't run through whichever brick wall the coach erects and some think this particular brick wall is stupid or counter-productive. But who can defend the players only being told few days in advance? (which I assume is true since no one has denied it). To me that raises more questions about the FD than about the players.

It's that time of year when I'm starting to crave and pine for some footy, but trying to make a saga out of this incident is so borish and desperate it really makes me wonder. Got virtually inconsequential written all over it. It's the sort of article the Caroline Willson would write, laced with rumor inuendo over a storm in a tea cup.

I would be very happy if we were: Finals in 4 years of last 5 with a premiership. 75,000+ members. Sponsors bashing down their door. A dedicated oval at Punt Road. No, we are the same old Melbourne. Languishing in our mediocrity.

Supercoach has always been the better scoring system in my opinion. It now correlates directly to the official AFL Champion Data points system. Therefore, you get more points for those clutch moments. A set shot goal kicked when you are 2 points down with 5 minutes to go gets more points than kicking a goal while you are 50 points up. @CBDees you should keep an eye out at the start of next season for the Fantasy Footy board. http://demonland.com/forums/forum/34-fantasy-footy/ There is a guy on here @DeeVoted who does an excellent job setting all the leagues up for Supercoach. I'm sure there will be a league for beginners. It takes a bit of work to get your team setup at the start of the year, but its very easy after that. Its a lot of fun and makes all the non Demon games more interesting because you have players from opposition sides in your team and you want them to do well.

http://melbournefc.com.au/video/2017-12-15/bailey-fritschs-arrival

Trac and Hoges are fine, minor niggles, spoke to both

The young guy in the 37 is a young Indigenous player from our Next Gen Academy

You're five foot nine? I didnt know they stacked [censored] that high!

True. A summer of kick to kick and running around witches hats is a great pre season!!!

Bitter's observations Snags and coffee were very good but I managed to show reasonable restraint. Saw Hogan run a bit a have a couple of kicks. He didn't train in the main session but seemed to be moving freely. Saw the Weid but he didn't train. Neither did Trac but I was told he was there. Max looks like the world's tallest marathon runner. He took a couple of clean strong grabs in the match simulation but, in fairness, there was no opponent near his height on those occasions. Pedo also looks like he has kept off the cheeseburgers and got a couple of slick handballs away during the simulation exercise. Balic, who I have never seen before, also showed a bit. He maybe a surprise. Tmac looks great. He left the main training and finished running some laps. Jeffy looks really fit. As you would expect he showed form in the sprints and was certain in set goalkicking. I never really watched Lever before. But he did everything well and was always near the front in running drills. He gave the impression that he's going all out to show what he can do and set a positive tone and example. Very impressive. Generally kicking looked good but a couple of easy marks were spilled. The stand out for me though was Clarrie. He looked mean and lean and had very safe hands. He appeared to have more of the ball than anyone. Like Moonie above, I did not see Jones injured.

Didn't see Jones injury, must've been looking elsewhere. Nice day to watch at Gosches. Everyone trained the house down. I spoke to everyone. Highlights were seeing Lever deliver a crunching tackle to remind a team mate there are no easy possessions and observing the new slimmed down look for Gawn, pedo and others. Also the fight between the checker mascot and the poodle near the coffee tent, shouldn't give dogs caffeine. Nice bbq by the demon army. Much appreciated. ? Smaller than expected crowd. They probably told the coach they didn't want to attend. Any questions, ask.

Can't quite bring yourself to call him by his own name I see. Probably brings up bad memories for you

Statistics can be very misleading and we all know that in isolation they are often of little value. At the same time they have value, which is why professional scouts across all professional sports place such an emphasis on them and they can be useful in terms of countering any confirmation bias observers might have Lever and Tmac's younger brother make for a fascinating statistical comparison. They are a really good duo to compare given they are almost exactly the same age, were drafted in the same year, almost the same height and weight and of most significance have played very similar roles and positions thus far in their career (meaning apples are not being compared to oranges when for instance comparing the DE of a mid to a player across HB who does a lot of short sideway chips). Now to be clear about how i rate Tmac's younger brother i think he is good player and last year really started to hit his straps in the second half of the year, only his second full year at AFL and he has huge upside. For a young KP he his ticking all the boxes and i expect him to play 200 plus games for the dees. I rate him higher that than Tmac at the same age and think he will end up being a better player, not least because his disposal is so much better. Of course i think Lever is a better player than Tmac's younger brother, he is a star already and is only going to get better. I am over the moon about drafting him. So please don't get me wrong i am not arguing these stats are evidence they are of equal ability because they're not. But nonetheless they are remarkably similar and given how good Lever unarguably is they reflect well on Tmac's younger brother. They will make a formidable defensive combination. Player Statistics Comparison Oscar McDonald Name Jake Lever Melbourne Demons Team Melbourne Demons Defender Position Defender 37 Career Games 56 North Ballarat Rebels Origin Calder Cannons March 18, 1996 Date of Birth March 5, 1996 21yr 8mth Age 21yr 9mth 196cm Height 195cm 97kg Weight 93kg 2014 National Draft Last Drafted In 2014 National Draft Round 3, Pick #53 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #14 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Adelaide Crows Career Stats for Season Career 37 Games 56 8.7 Kicks Per Game 10.1 7.0 Handballs Per Game 5.3 15.7 Disposals Per Game 15.4 5.0 Marks Per Game 5.5 0 Goals Per Game 0.1 0 Behinds Per Game 0.1 1.6 Tackles Per Game 1.3 0 Hitouts Per Game 0 1.1 Inside 50s Per Game 1.3 0.1 Goal Assists Per Game 0.1 0.6 Frees For Per Game 1.0 0.7 Frees Against Per Game 1.0 5.2 Contested Possessions Per Game 5.6 10.4 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 9.8 12.2 Effective Disposals Per Game 12.1 77.7% Disposal Efficiency % Per Game 78.6% 1.8 Clangers Per Game 2.2 0.5 Contested Marks Per Game 0.8 0 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.1 0.4 Clearances Per Game 0.1 2.5 Rebound 50s Per Game 3.1 6.8 One Percenters Per Game 5.4 0 Bounces Per Game 0.2 89.3 Time On Ground % Per Game 85.8 0.1 Centre Clearances Per Game 0 0.3 Stoppage Clearances Per Game 0.1 1.8 Score Involvements Per Game 2.9 213.9 Metres Gained Per Game 242.0 2.5 Turnovers Per Game 2.7 6.3 Intercepts Per Game 7.8 0 Tackles Inside 50 Per Game 0

I think the comments on his effort, intensity and appetite and impact on the contest are off the money. In 2017, Oscar had more tackles than Hibberd and more 1%s than Hibberd and Jetta combined. His efforts to contest is what’s getting him selected week in, week out. But, each to their own. The coaches clearly love him and I love him too!

Got there at 10:40 for a look. Good crowd. Salem and Viney came out late for a walk around. Only saw the 3 younger draftees leaving. Absent: Tracc?, Vanders, Weeds, Hogan, McKenna, Smith x 2, Kent. DJ? Usual ball movement stuff in bigger drills. Small drills with kicking, hand balling and marking. Jeffy and T Mc did small stuff instead of main later drills Pros: Fritsch leads to space well, nice low kick. Balic can find the ball, kicking up and down but he can get in to space Clarence Wagner - I’m still a believer Flippers is a mobile big man. The academy King lad is a star in the making, won’t be for us, easy athleticism and skills. Tyson moving well Nibbler. Pedersen. Cons: Brayshaw needs a constant coaching rocket IMO. Makes silly errors, needs focus. Hannan dropping marks, has a high stepping run that should be fixed Lewis: pedestrian in one on one marking, won’t win many contests down back

We know he is a developing player. He can be very frustrating to watch and that its part and parcel of developing players. But I see mostly what STMJ sees. A player that doesn't have any special attributes and doesn't do anything particularly well. He is largely in for his height IMO and I maintain that if we had alternatives he would be learning his craft at Casey, not in the senior team. And you can't deny (although some will try (hi Binman)) that we were 18th for one on one contests in our defensive 50 and 18th for opposition scores from defensive 50 entries. When Nev and Hibberd are AA defenders that doesn't leave too many others to point the finger at. Others think he will make it, I don't. But I barrack for the Dees and I hope he does. It would be a great story and I would be glad to eat humble pie.

Plenty of over reactions on this thread. This decision forced by the Players Association not the players as suggested will make absolutely no difference come season start. The boys are still going to be trained into the ground, they are still going to be made to hurt and sweat red & blue for our club and their team mates. This has no reflection on their desire to win, their desire to play for their gurney, their desire to move up the ladder. Internally the expectation is 15 win in season 2018. Take a couple of deep breaths, this is no biggie.

Jack Watts would have done the boot camp.

Wise decision: stick to training hard on a footy field and actually improving skills and gameplan instead of this rubbish

This is either: a) Good b) Bad