POSTGAME: Rd 11 vs North Melbourne

[DemonOX 8,530]

1 hour ago, Win4theAges said:

I've mentioned this before, Viney has great burst speed, tackling and great goal sense.

Its a no brainer for him to spend more time in the Fwd line interchanging with Gus in the Guts.

I have been saying this fo a while now. 
 

Rotate the mids to f50. We need more than 3 mids going around during the game. 

[Nasher 33,047]

2 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

Well there's few greater insults than that!

The problem for Spargo is that he is and always will be outbodied in the contest, he just doesn't have innate core strength like Nev and he doesn't have pace or agility to avoid the contest.  If he was 180/82 he would not be so vulnerable in this area.

Pickett has electric pace, Caleb Daniel is very clean and is a beautiful kick - Spargo doesn't have any outstanding attribute to compensate for his shortcoming.

I wonder what Jason Taylor would think of this analysis? What you have said sounds right to me, but all these attributes and shortcomings would have been known as an 18 year old, but we took him anyway, and with a non-trivial pick (late 20s). 

[loges 6,047]

6 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I wonder if they took offence at Goodwin's comments about not enough protection for Max from them and they 'decided' to show whose boss!

It may be a long bow but one has to wonder.  The umpiring seemed very one sided.  Not just the soft frees but all the ones they didn't pay to us.

With the vision being showed of the Crows player running 50 meters off the ball to belt Max right in front of the umpire, that bloke is lucky he got to umpire last night at all.

[58er 5,608]

Just now, Nasher said:

I wonder what Jason Taylor would think of this analysis? What you have said sounds right to me, but all these attributes and shortcomings would have been known as an 18 year old, but we took him anyway, and with a non-trivial pick (late 20s). 

One vital attribute Charlie has is a VERY GOOD FOOTBALL BRAIN and therefore he is a good link up player in a role not necessarily taking the centre stage like Kossie.

Credit to him looked stronger and most positive since the Hawks  Semi Final Win in which he was a good contributor.

Msy we'll play under the radar in Kossies shadow now if he strings together some valuable games. IE will get No 2 small forward defender now also!!.

[loges 6,047]

3 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

I think that his kicking skills are as good as anyone's in the team. He has varied capabilities with the ball as seen with some of his 'shots' at goal from the boundary to square front-on, including some of his looping passing to teammates, and some of his more direct feeds with the ball. He has distance and accuracy. He is also a good crumber. His attack with the ball is seldom exaggerated by steadying delays - he gets it, he goals faster than you can blink - quite often. He is a very handy team footballer.

Plenty of ability but has to show it more consistently.

[old55 21,352]

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

I wonder what Jason Taylor would think of this analysis? What you have said sounds right to me, but all these attributes and shortcomings would have been known as an 18 year old, but we took him anyway, and with a non-trivial pick (late 20s). 

Like @58er says Spargo has got good football nous - he's 4th generation top level player after all.  It's a fine line - Caleb Daniel has made it but I think Charlie may just fall short because despite his all-round ability he doesn't have a stand-out feature.  It's possible that he was overpowered because he was a 19 year-old, but is he going to get 3 years to really build up enough strength to compete?  Like I said - Nev has great core strength and he's just that important bit bigger than Charlie.  Nev also has great agility which Charlie doesn't have either.  Charlie is a better version of JKH but I fear than may still not be enough.  Despite @titan_uranus protestations, if he was 180/82 he'd make it for sure.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Pollyanna

[Binmans PA 26,139]

8 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Re the Viney vs Brayshaw in the middle.

For me it is not who is the better mid (both are) but the game plan we want at centre stoppages. 

• Viney is such a bull; he hunts the ball, takes the first possession from the tap (as does Oliver), but likes to take ops on.  We all love that about him.  But unlike Petracca he isn't strong enough to fend them off (or he chooses not to).  So when Viney takes first possession it is often HTB, another ball up or a  turnover (if he can't get on to his left side).  No spread or clearance for us.
• Gus takes the second possession after the tap, gets to the outside for a clean clearance.  Its a bit like how we played in 2018 with players at the back of the square for centre bounces.   Gus is less of a bull and a bit more of an outside mid.

So I would suggest it is Viney, Oliver and Petracca that are most alike with Gus having attributes the others don't have as much. 

And, it looks to me Viney's style is interfering with Oliver's role (who gets first possession?) as much as keeping Gus out.  When Viney is in the middle we rely on one of the wingmen to take the second possession but it takes too long for them to get there and meanwhile one of the op mids has taken possession of there is another stoppage.

For a while our clearances haven't matched Max's ruck dominance.  imv it is that the mids roles aren't clearly defined or they are not following orders.

So is the discussion Viney vs Oliver rather than Viney vs Brayshaw? 

In a nutshell we spread much better with Gus in there.  And in my mind it is Oliver over Viney. 

Its a real dilemma and at the end of the day it comes down to how we want our centre stoppages/clearances and spread to work.  We need to do something to get more value from Max's dominance.

I think Oliver v Viney is the better comparison, but Viney rarely gives hands as you say and tries to run through people. So he doesn't bring his team mates into it.

I just think Oliver is a once in a generation talent with his ability to find the ball. He has a rare mix of good decision-making, speed and ball reading ability. 

Petracca is a bull whose intensity goes through the roof around contest now. It goes up and down that intensity, that allows him to make good decisions.

To me, Oliver and Petracca have switches to go to in their play, mostly around intensity and acceleration into and out of the contest, whereas Jack has less tools in his kit IMO. If Oliver and Petracca have 2 or 3 gears, Jack has one.

Unless Jack changes his game, I think he gets in the way of Oliver and Petracca (happened a few times even in the Adelaise game), so if he's playing midfield, he probably needs to be in there without Oliver and possibly even Trac. What does Viney, Gus and Harmes look like as a rotational 3? At the end of the day, I don't think it'll be as strong as any combination involving Oliver.

All of this is academic and hypothetical, because I don’t see the coaches playing Jack as a pressure forward. Even though, it's plain as day that he'd be decent in the role and would enable Gus to gel with Oliver and Petracca and exploit each other's strengths to the maximum.

I'd love to be a part of the Melbourne coaching team because there are so many options and solutions to try and yet we stick with positional rigidity throughout our system.

Edited August 10, 2020 by A F

[Dwight Schrute 16,789]

Reality is that we're a better side without Viney in the guts. so i feel we need to trial some things. the split Brayshaw and Viney have could be reversed and give Viney more time on the wing, ultimately though we're a better side with Gus, Petracca and Oliver at the bounces. even without Gawn there. 

[Binmans PA 26,139]

8 hours ago, Melb-A-Toast said:

I have noticed in the last few games Oliver has waited after the the first tap on a ball up, going in hard and at pace for the second contest. There are lots of 2nd and 3rd contests after a ball up. This approach by Oliver has enabled him to use his pace to leave the contest and get a good possession opportunity.

Absolutely, and because he's usually so clean from ground balls or loose balls, he's able to accelerate through stoppage and out. Great post. Noticed this happening more when Viney was going for the first contest as well.

[Binmans PA 26,139]

7 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Before making any calls on Brayshaw vs Viney, I'd like to see a few things:

1. Brayshaw's TOG and centre bounce attendance stats for last night compared to previous games (I don't know where to find these); and
2. whether Brayshaw can perform like that against a stronger midfield than North's.

I think you're being myopic here. Take a look at the majority of 2018 without Viney. It's clear Brayshaw can perform like that against a stronger midfield than North's. He did it most of 2018. 

7 hours ago, Return to Glory said:

LH, realistically i don't think that's up for debate. Oliver is an A grade mid . Viney isn't. For mine, it's where you rest Viney when Brayshaw is on the ball. And do you look to give Viney pure tagging roles for the opposition's best mid -fielder?

Great point this mate. If you give Viney a tagging role, it limits his see ball, get ball, ball up.

I just think we need to try things as @Patches O’houlihan says, instead of just sticking with the same old rubbish roles that we've had until the last two games.

You don't have to change your system, just try giving players different roles within your system. We don't do this anywhere near enough for mine and the times we do (Fritsch back, Harmes back, Gus on a wing) it so clearly does not work, but we persist with it for way too long.

Edited August 10, 2020 by A F

[Binmans PA 26,139]

7 hours ago, Nasher said:

He’s been great since returning to the side after the break I reckon. Has looked like the player he was when he first came to the club.

Which is a great effort considering what he's been through personally this year.

[Binmans PA 26,139]

6 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Based on form I'd happily give him a 1 year contract.

I'd give him the security of two personally. 

Maybe slightly reduced wage, but even when he invariably slows down soon enough, I reckon it's important to look after a guy in his position.

I think he's proved he'll give us at the very least another year of good footy and it's fair to say if he continues on this trajectory for the rest of the year, he should get a two year deal IMO.

[titan_uranus 22,368]

20 minutes ago, A F said:

I think you're being myopic here. Take a look at the majority of 2018 without Viney. It's clear Brayshaw can perform like that against a stronger midfield than North's. He did it most of 2018. 

We were a different side in 2018.

TMac, Spargo, Harmes, Jetta, ANB, vandenBerg: we have plenty of players who have not recaptured their 2018 form. Brayshaw's another.

Maybe it was the absence of Viney which was the catalyst, but it could equally be the opposition. As I said, we've got a stack of players who are not reaching their 2018 levels of output.

[Axis of Bob 10,228]

25 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

Like @58er says Spargo has got good football nous - he's 4th generation top level player after all.  It's a fine line - Caleb Daniel has made it but I think Charlie may just fall short because despite his all-round ability he doesn't have a stand-out feature.  It's possible that he was overpowered because he was a 19 year-old, but is he going to get 3 years to really build up enough strength to compete?  Like I said - Nev has great core strength and he's just that important bit bigger than Charlie.  Nev also has great agility which Charlie doesn't have either.  Charlie is a better version of JKH but I fear than may still not be enough.  Despite @titan_uranus protestations, if he was 180/82 he'd make it for sure.

I agree that he'd make it for sure as a 6 footer. I think it will be interesting to see how he goes otherwise, because he's a real footballer. In his favour is that he is pretty strong for his height, has agilty and that the game has changed a little. He's an excellent decision maker, good defensively and a real 'gamer', who does a lot of little stuff that helps a team win. So the only real issue is about whether he can win enough of the footy to be worth a constant spot on the team. 

He's not lightning, but he's good in tight and has agility. He's a good fall of the ball crumber but I think his real value is as a forward half midfielder. He doesn't have the size to win one on one contests, but in that role you don't often have to. You need to push up and defend and then be a link in the chain going forward, as well as being a crumber and pressure player for the long ball. He has great attributes for that, especially in a tough, high pressure finals game where good decisions, toughness and 'doing the little things that it takes to win' are at a premium. He's not the player to bust it open, but rather the type that enables others.

He has good endurance, a natural brain, is quite strong over the ball as well as making excellent decisions. I think he probably ends up playing the ANB role minus the ball-in-hand-liability. 

 

[Bay Riffin 1,419]

5 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

We were a different side in 2018.

TMac, Spargo, Harmes, Jetta, ANB, vandenBerg: we have plenty of players who have not recaptured their 2018 form. Brayshaw's another.

Maybe it was the absence of Viney which was the catalyst, but it could equally be the opposition. As I said, we've got a stack of players who are not reaching their 2018 levels of output.

Harmes was so crucial like Cameron Ling, in 2018 he'd take the opposition best player often, keep them quiet and get plenty of ball himself. maybe we need to give him those roles again. throw him on Treloar or Sidebottom. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Bay Riffin

[old55 21,352]

4 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

 has agility 

I haven't particularly seen it but if he does that would make a big difference.

[Binmans PA 26,139]

4 hours ago, cantstandyasam said:

Wish he was more accurate when shooting for goal.

We could probably level that at most of our team this year and particularly last night. Fritsch, Hannan, Petracca, Kozzie, Weideman all missed simple shots at goal.

Langdon showed last year at the Dockers that he can be a goal kicking wingman. He's still settling in and I wonder if he's being asked to do more defensive work to cover our offensive midfield, than he did at the Dockers. Not only does he gut run to sweep (see @Lucifer's Hero's comments), but he's usually an unmanned outlet on the wing, half forward or half back for our mids to give to, as well as providing overlap off half back and the wing.

He's been a brilliant pick up and getting better by the week.

4 hours ago, TickleMeTyson said:

I'd like to see Jack spend more time forward, could be as damaging as someone like Zorko I reckon. He will bring the necessary forward pressure and Richo thinks he is the best set-shot in the team. Not sure why we haven't tried it. 

Strange call by Richo if that's what's been said. For mine, Melksham is clearly our best set shot.

4 hours ago, Pollyanna said:

Well there's few greater insults than that!

The problem for Spargo is that he is and always will be outbodied in the contest, he just doesn't have innate core strength like Nev and he doesn't have pace or agility to avoid the contest.  If he was 180/82 he would not be so vulnerable in this area.

Pickett has electric pace, Caleb Daniel is very clean and is a beautiful kick - Spargo doesn't have any outstanding attribute to compensate for his shortcoming.

Think this is completely unfair mate. Spargo is 20 years old. Wouldn't have thought Jetta was particularly strong in the core in his early days either.

I also agree with @titan_uranus about your height comment. If Spargo can run games out, tackle, get to the right spots and use the ball efficiently, he'll make it. Consistent showings like last night, which I think he delivered relatively often in 2018, will see him make it.

2 hours ago, leucopogon said:

The big thing I took out of last night is that our zone must have been excellent as there were a number of occasions when North players seemed in two minds with ball in hand even under little pressure. A few times they even had to take rushed, obviously improvised bounces due to not seeing the right option up field. We'll done Dees. 

Of course it also helped that they butchered the pill worse than any side I've seen all year. 

And to be fair to our group and coaches, our defensive zone has looked very good for the majority of the year and has kept teams to consistently lower scores.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

2 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

Harmes was so crucial like Cameron Ling, in 2018 he'd take the opposition best player often, keep them quiet and get plenty of ball himself. maybe we need to give him those roles again. throw him on Treloar or Sidebottom. 

Treloar won't be playing. I hold slim hope that Sidebottom also won't. 

[Lucifers Hero 37,079]

8 hours ago, Melb-A-Toast said:

I have noticed in the last few games Oliver has waited after the the first tap on a ball up, going in hard and at pace for the second contest. There are lots of 2nd and 3rd contests after a ball up. This approach by Oliver has enabled him to use his pace to leave the contest and get a good possession opportunity.

Yes, I noticed that also.  Its made a huge difference to his game; gets the chance to find space and take a run.  Similarly positioning for the second possession after the tap has made a big difference for Gus to get on the outside and spread from the contest.

It will be huge for us if the midfielders get the 1st and 2nd possession plays sorted out.  It will stop 2 or 3 going for the ball at once.  It will make it harder for opp mids to scrag them, not knowing who will go for the 1st possession and not know who will take the 2nd possession and spread for a clearance.

This 'role clarity' can easily be used in around the ground stoppages.  We may finally be resolving the 'numbers' at the contest problem and do what other teams do and keep a player on the outside. 

I'm sure there is a midfield role for Viney its just a matter of coaches working out who is the best fit for each role.

[Hellish Inferno 992]

Worth noting with the horrible umpiring differential the last two weeks that Norf and Adelaide are No. 1 and 2 respectively on 'Frees For' average this season at 20.7 and 19.8

Compares to us on 16.6 (No. 13)

Amazingly, West Coast are last on 14.5 per game!! League average is 17.4

Edited August 10, 2020 by Hellish Inferno

[Axis of Bob 10,228]

5 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

I haven't particularly seen it but if he does that would make a big difference.

Spargo didn't test at draft camp that year due to injury but prior to injury he did a 7.83 second agility test. The draft record is Stephen Hill with 7.77s, and 7.83s would have been 5th best of all time. 

[CHF 2,607]

My one word analysis of the North's game - INTERESTING

INTERESTING to see the team get up and perform so well after a 4 day break. was it just the quality of the opposition?

INTERESTING to see the performance of the midfield without Viney and Max. Looked as though the hunted became the hunter. want to see that when the two are back

INTERESTING to see how bad that North are and don't I love it!

INTERESTING to see the the way we played and wonder how much of it was down to the coaching instructions and how much was down to player'taking the game on.

INTERESTING to see the selections for the next match based on the form and the ins and outs over the last couple of matches.

INTERESTING INTERESTING INTERESTING

[Binmans PA 26,139]

22 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

We were a different side in 2018.

TMac, Spargo, Harmes, Jetta, ANB, vandenBerg: we have plenty of players who have not recaptured their 2018 form. Brayshaw's another.

Maybe it was the absence of Viney which was the catalyst, but it could equally be the opposition. As I said, we've got a stack of players who are not reaching their 2018 levels of output.

I find this a strange argument. What has this got to do with whether Brayshaw can do it against the best? He's done it before. And this year, he hasn't been given the chance to do it against the best, instead he was played on a wing. As soon as he's been given the chance to go in the guts for regular TOG, he's done all that was asked of him. I feel like you're being pretty harsh on him, but anyway.

As for why a few of those players haven't recaptured form, let's break that down.

Tom McDonald's had injury interruptions; Spargo was a second year player last year (he was given a go last night and did well); Harmes (as it's well-documented) is being played out of position (not the same position as 2018); Jetts has slowed down considerably, that's just apart of football; ANB is a role player whose form has always been up and down (even in 2018); and Vandenberg has made us tougher this year but struggled with disposal just as he did in 2018. 

We've also had an injection of younger talent that has gone past these guys. I'd argue Weideman has gone past Tom now. It's clear Lockhart is Nev's heir. And ANB's been competing with the likes of Sparrow and Bennell.

Gus can do it against the best sides and if we have the right midfield combination, he will prove it again and agian.

30 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

I agree that he'd make it for sure as a 6 footer. I think it will be interesting to see how he goes otherwise, because he's a real footballer. In his favour is that he is pretty strong for his height, has agilty and that the game has changed a little. He's an excellent decision maker, good defensively and a real 'gamer', who does a lot of little stuff that helps a team win. So the only real issue is about whether he can win enough of the footy to be worth a constant spot on the team. 

He's not lightning, but he's good in tight and has agility. He's a good fall of the ball crumber but I think his real value is as a forward half midfielder. He doesn't have the size to win one on one contests, but in that role you don't often have to. You need to push up and defend and then be a link in the chain going forward, as well as being a crumber and pressure player for the long ball. He has great attributes for that, especially in a tough, high pressure finals game where good decisions, toughness and 'doing the little things that it takes to win' are at a premium. He's not the player to bust it open, but rather the type that enables others.

He has good endurance, a natural brain, is quite strong over the ball as well as making excellent decisions. I think he probably ends up playing the ANB role minus the ball-in-hand-liability. 

Agreed with most of this, although Spargo did burst it open at one stage last night and got the ball going back out way as he burst through a stoppage at half back and we got a goal out of it at the other end.

I just think it's far too early to be writing off players, particularly simply because of their height. As a 6 foot 6 fella I'm all for giving it to little people (ie the rest of the you), but to say someone won't make it because he's too small, I think is... short sighted.

[Axis of Bob 10,228]

3 minutes ago, A F said:

I just think it's far too early to be writing off players, particularly simply because of their height. As a 6 foot 6 fella I'm all for giving it to little people (ie the rest of the you), but to say someone won't make it because he's too small, I think is... short sighted.

I agree generally with @Pollyanna though, as height is important and not many players of Spargo's height make it. If he was 180cm he'd be a lock, rather than still being speculated on. The problem with very small players is their ability to win the footy in contests because they get knocked off the ball easily (look at Daniel). Spargo doesn't really because he's still quite strong (and wins contested footy) and the role he plays doesn't require him to be a big ball winner but rather a clever facilitator.

Most of the really small players need a special trick. It's usually speed (Boomer Harvey, etc), but I'm really happy that the game has changed enough that there are roles for short players who are real, genuine footballers (like Spargo and Daniel .... who is probably my favourite non-Melbourne footballer).

Pickett is even shorter but has a trick or two .... speed, agility, power, vertical leap, skills, hands, game sense, work rate, dance moves, goal sense, toughness. I hope I'm not underselling him. 

[sue 8,434]

48 minutes ago, A F said:

..., but to say someone won't make it because he's too small, I think is... short sighted.

Yeah that ruined my footy career too. (Pre contacts)