Do we go inside to get outside?

[Guest]

And by that I mean do we look inside the club to get a decent outside mid? Or do we look to the draft? Or recruit one from another club?

Looking at our stocks of midfield talent, we seem to have an abundance of extractors but a scarcity of midfield distributors/line breakers. Jack, Clarry, Nate and Gus have all been designated as inside mids (with Gus being moved to HBF to get his confidence back). Salo has also been training with the midfield during the off season, and if I'm not mistaken, with a view to take on that role in the future. 

There have been complaints about our lack of spread but it seems to me that we have recruited in a manner that has given us few players who can do so. Jordie and Bernie were excellent distributors in their day, but clearly they are closer to the end than the beginning. We have tried recruiting via the draft the type of player I have mentioned but the Toump and Cale clearly didn't work out.

So my question is: Can we find someone within our four walls to be that guy? Jaidyn Hunt could be a possibility if he can start making smarter decisions with the pill. Tracc wants to go midfield but is his style of play suited to that role?

Can we convert one of our insiders into outsiders like a reverse Chris Judd?

 Or do we look elsewhere? People rightly have mentioned Andrew Gaff.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Colin B. Flaubert

[monoccular 17,644]

17 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

And by that I mean do we look inside the club to get a decent outside mid? Or do we look to the draft? Or recruit one from another club?

Looking at our stocks of midfield talent, we seem to have an abundance of extractors but a scarcity of midfield distributors/line breakers. Jack, Clarry, Nate and Gus have all been designated as inside mids (with Gus being moved to HBF to get his confidence back). Salo has also been training with the midfield during the off season, and if I'm not mistaken, with a view to take on that role in the future. 

There have been complaints about our lack of spread but it seems to me that we have recruited in a manner that has given us few players who can do so. Jordie and Bernie were excellent distributors in their day, but clearly they are closer to the end than the beginning. We have tried recruiting via the draft the type of player I have mentioned but the Toump and Cale clearly didn't work out.

So my question is: Can we find someone within our four walls to be that guy? Jaidyn Hunt could be a possibility if he can start making smarter decisions with the pill. Tracc wants to go midfield but is his style of play suited to that role?

Can we convert one of our insiders into outsiders like a reverse Chris Judd?

 Or do we look elsewhere? People rightly have mentioned Andrew Gaff.

Cale and Toump are, happily, ancient history 

Fritsch and possibly Hannan look like they could be options from inside the club

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

In my opinion spread is not going to be helped by one outside midfielder, sure someone like Gaff who can run those outside lines is handy, but spread happens from good skill execution in space, off a turnover/intercept possession or as seen on some of our kick outs. 

Gone are the days of needing a genuine outside mid and it is more necessary to have players execute with the footy well when we are on the break. When we are able to hit targets, we move the ball as quick as any other team and it’s not footspeed that this movement is dependent on. This is not to say that an outside mid is not a weapon, but players with good decision in congestion become outside players as they are able to judge when team mates will win the footy and then spread.

Our biggest issue is the over commitment to the contest, which we are finally starting to correct and has lead to better ball movement over the last couple of weeks. By moving the ball better, it will highlight our lack of need for a genuine outside mid as our game style is more relient on using our half backs as deliverers of the footy, and then having overlap from the mids. 

But don’t get me wrong, Gaff would be a handy addition and an upgrade on someone like Harmes, but I also think his lack of versatility would not be in his favour in our team.

 

 

[deesrule 104]

When Viney is up and running he will free up Oliver who can play outside as well as inside Jones has been training as a receiver as well

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

Fritsch. Early days but that left boot is, so far, a thing of beauty. Seems to make good decisions and obviously good above his head too

Salem. Can kick, makes good decisions 

Spargo. Yeah right O, right O he will never look like Isaac Smith gracefully running down the wing but has anyone seen him waste a possession yet? Small sample group like Fritsch but always seems to put it to the favour of the receiving player. We want the ball in Charlie’s hands.

[Deeoldfart 8,109]

I agree it would be good to add some Porsche qualities, to complement the horse-power that we've already assembled in our engine room.  For mine, I don't see anyone on our current list emerging to fill that role.  Salem comes closest, but consistency and fitness have always held him back.  No doubt the draft will offer up some possibilities, but it is 'hit and miss', especially having to wait until the second round in 2018, and in any event, draftees will take time to develop into the role.  I'd therefore be looking to trade in an established B+ / A grader, but the price will be high.  Gaff would be great, but is probably out of reach.  Time for Jason and Josh to do their thing.

[Diamond_Jim 12,689]

1 hour ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

In my opinion spread is not going to be helped by one outside midfielder, sure someone like Gaff who can run those outside lines is handy, but spread happens from good skill execution in space, off a turnover/intercept possession or as seen on some of our kick outs. 

Gone are the days of needing a genuine outside mid and it is more necessary to have players execute with the footy well when we are on the break. When we are able to hit targets, we move the ball as quick as any other team and it’s not footspeed that this movement is dependent on. This is not to say that an outside mid is not a weapon, but players with good decision in congestion become outside players as they are able to judge when team mates will win the footy and then spread.

Our biggest issue is the over commitment to the contest, which we are finally starting to correct and has lead to better ball movement over the last couple of weeks. By moving the ball better, it will highlight our lack of need for a genuine outside mid as our game style is more relient on using our half backs as deliverers of the footy, and then having overlap from the mids. 

But don’t get me wrong, Gaff would be a handy addition and an upgrade on someone like Harmes, but I also think his lack of versatility would not be in his favour in our team.

 

 

Excellent post MM. The line breaking player is no longer in vogue... ( more the shame) rather it is the team carrying it forward as you say by handball and tap ons which are becoming increasingly common. A line breaking player of the past used to avoid one or two tackles in running his 30 metres or so. Now in the same space the player has to typically avoid 4-5 tackles which is not a good risk/reward equation. There is also the problem that a fast line breaker gets ahead of the team and of course there are no recipients for his pass. Playing a permanent forward would remedy this but it is simply not done anymore.

Against the Saints I thought we were not very good at defending against their run and handball from deep in our forward line. The press is excellent in defending the kick out of our forward line but perhaps it is not as good for defending the handball and run.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

The player you are thinking of is Vandenberg

[poita 3,908]

2 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

The player you are thinking of is Vandenberg

You mean the guy who was slow and had poor foot skills before he missed two years of football with a foot injury?

[Deemania since 56 6,763]

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

Cale and Toump are, happily, ancient history 

Fritsch and possibly Hannan look like they could be options from inside the club

Agree with that ... to me it looks like Hannan is moving to the ball and to the space so well across the last 2 weeks with great improvement between the Ess and the StK games. He is using some natural pace, can mark, kicks are more effective and getting into 'no man's land' by reading the play for that special pass, with time to deliver the ball himself, with authority. I'd therefore reckon that Hannan may be the outside man.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

ANB?

I watched snippets of the game last night and he was trying to fill that role...

Perhaps he is being coached up for that role?

[Demon Dynasty 17,132]

2 hours ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

In my opinion spread is not going to be helped by one outside midfielder, sure someone like Gaff who can run those outside lines is handy, but spread happens from good skill execution in space, off a turnover/intercept possession or as seen on some of our kick outs. 

Gone are the days of needing a genuine outside mid and it is more necessary to have players execute with the footy well when we are on the break. When we are able to hit targets, we move the ball as quick as any other team and it’s not footspeed that this movement is dependent on. This is not to say that an outside mid is not a weapon, but players with good decision in congestion become outside players as they are able to judge when team mates will win the footy and then spread.

Our biggest issue is the over commitment to the contest, which we are finally starting to correct and has lead to better ball movement over the last couple of weeks. By moving the ball better, it will highlight our lack of need for a genuine outside mid as our game style is more relient on using our half backs as deliverers of the footy, and then having overlap from the mids. 

But don’t get me wrong, Gaff would be a handy addition and an upgrade on someone like Harmes, but I also think his lack of versatility would not be in his favour in our team.

 

 

Nice post MM

[Demon Dynasty 17,132]

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Excellent post MM. The line breaking player is no longer in vogue... ( more the shame) rather it is the team carrying it forward as you say by handball and tap ons which are becoming increasingly common. A line breaking player of the past used to avoid one or two tackles in running his 30 metres or so. Now in the same space the player has to typically avoid 4-5 tackles which is not a good risk/reward equation. There is also the problem that a fast line breaker gets ahead of the team and of course there are no recipients for his pass. Playing a permanent forward would remedy this but it is simply not done anymore.

Against the Saints I thought we were not very good at defending against their run and handball from deep in our forward line. The press is excellent in defending the kick out of our forward line but perhaps it is not as good for defending the handball and run.

I love watching Hunt but is he facing this dilemma especially early in the match.  Is it worth benching him for the first half and instead having a more dour defender like Wags keeping a lid on things?  Hunt then replaces wages for the majority of the 2nd half when the game and space starts to open up when he can use his pace and run to maximum effect having plenty left in the tank.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Rusty Nails

[P-man 13,366]

Jones will return to an outside role when Viney comes back. Viney himself is not exactly slow, although he’s more devastating as a ball winner. Good luck to any team trying to win a clearance with Gawn tapping to Oliver, Viney and Brayshaw.

Before we recruit another speedy midfielder or two (which we still need to do imo), I prefer the idea of Hannan in the midfield than Hunt as he’s a much better user by foot. He mentioned in his podcast interview (well worth a listen) that he has an interest in moving to the midfield. The danger with that is robbing Peter to pay Paul, although Fritsch, Spargo, Melksham and when in form, Garlett, is still a very handy small-medium forward brigade. If only Hunt could learn how to kick on the run. When he takes his time he rarely misses a target.

Mad Melbourne makes a great point though. Better skill execution which we showed at various steps against the Saints can make a team look twice as fast.

[Diamond_Jim 12,689]

24 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

I love watching Hunt but is he facing this dilemma especially early in the match.  Is it worth benching him for the first half and instead having a more dour defender like Wags keeping a lid on things?  Hunt then replaces wages for the majority of the 2nd half when the game and space starts to open up when he can use his pace and run to maximum effect having plenty left in the tank.

Just cannot see his game style working in the modern game. Watched him twice at VFL level this year as well. Even in those games the opportunities to break lines were almost non existent such was the tackling pressure.

Your idea is radical but it is one of those things we could trial with a similar type of player at VFL level. (Frankly I am surprised we don't trial more game plan variations at VFL level if only for a quarter each game. Winning at that level is nice but it is far from the be all and end all.)

[monoccular 17,644]

A couple of questions for avid training and Casey watchers.

How are Baker and Balic progressing?  Are these potentially what we need here?

[McQueen 17,867]

I dint think speed is going to fix our weaknesses. Smart players who take good options and who get the right areas in numbers are winning games for clubs. Richmond is the clear benchmark in this regard, their commitment to doing the small things is exemplary.

We’re trying but unfortunately lack polish at the last moment. I hope it’s an educational thing that the players can grasp and turn into consistent performances but I’m not sure.

 

[Diamond_Jim 12,689]

4 minutes ago, monoccular said:

A couple of questions for avid training and Casey watchers.

How are Baker and Balic progressing?  Are these potentially what we need here?

Speaking from the viewpoint of having seen 3 Casey games:

Baker is doing quite nicely and if he continues to progress will probably get a game or two this year on the half back flank.

Balic started very well but has been absent for the last three games or so. Hopefully he comes back this weekend. Early signs were good.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Diamond_Jim

[Red and Blue realist 2,058]

16 minutes ago, McQueen said:

I dint think speed is going to fix our weaknesses. Smart players who take good options and who get the right areas in numbers are winning games for clubs. Richmond is the clear benchmark in this regard, their commitment to doing the small things is exemplary.

We’re trying but unfortunately lack polish at the last moment. I hope it’s an educational thing that the players can grasp and turn into consistent performances but I’m not sure.

 

I disagree with some of this, because i think Richmond are one of the teams with the least amount of 'polish', what they do better as a team better than any is all spread together at pace. So when they get a run on and they spray a kick or send it down the line, it always happens to land with 3 or 4 of their players around, rather than to someone who is one out, or 2 against 2 or 3. They move in packs and the packs get to the right spots.

I think we can do that rather than rely on an outside 'line-breaker', in the back line for instance Hibberd, Lewis, Hunt and then the more defensive oriented mids such as Jones and Tyson, should be forming these packs to move the ball forward trying to connect to something similar up forward (say Hannan, Fritsch, ANB, Oliver, Salem etc.) before either getting a clear shot off or passing to Hogan/Weid/TMac. 

[McQueen 17,867]

1 minute ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I disagree with some of this, because i think Richmond are one of the teams with the least amount of 'polish', what they do better as a team better than any is all spread together at pace. So when they get a run on and they spray a kick or send it down the line, it always happens to land with 3 or 4 of their players around, rather than to someone who is one out, or 2 against 2 or 3. They move in packs and the packs get to the right spots.

I think we can do that rather than rely on an outside 'line-breaker', in the back line for instance Hibberd, Lewis, Hunt and then the more defensive oriented mids such as Jones and Tyson, should be forming these packs to move the ball forward trying to connect to something similar up forward (say Hannan, Fritsch, ANB, Oliver, Salem etc.) before either getting a clear shot off or passing to Hogan/Weid/TMac. 

I didn’t refer to Richmond having ‘polish’.

Have another read.

[Its Time for Another 4,303]

27 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Speaking from the viewpoint of having seen 3 Casey games:

Baker is doing quite nicely and if he continues to progress will probably get a game or two this year on the half back flank.

Balic started very well but has been absent for the last three games or so. Hopefully he comes back this weekend. Early signs were good.

Good OP. 

Misson said in his last update that Balic has a Planta Facia problem but that he's pain free now and should be back in a week. I hear he was looking very promising at Casey.

I have a sneaking suspicion Gaff is heading our way. Only real reason I think that is because we so willingly gave away this year's first rounder for Lever. I figured it wasn't as important to the Club because they had something else brewing this year. Who knows. Everyone talks about him heading back to Vic but his long term girlfriend or wife. I don't know which is from Perth so not sure how significant the game home factor is. 

I agree with others suggestion that Hunt could be the internal solution. I'm really surprised he hasn't been used there already. Maybe because his kicks into the forward 50 are so bad. 

 

Edited May 8, 2018 by It's Time

[Red and Blue realist 2,058]

2 minutes ago, McQueen said:

I didn’t refer to Richmond having ‘polish’.

Have another read.

You said we're trying but lack the polish at the last moment, what I was saying is that Richmond are the leaders in this area and they completely lack any polish, they just rely on moving it forward and having enough people there to then continue to move it forward until they get a score. 

[DeleteUser 638]

I am really glad I found Demonland (thanks Browney!). It is really opening my eyes to footy and is a really insightful read. You guys do an ace job.

(Also, embarrassingly, caused me to sign up as a member for the first time in the 31 years I've been barracking.)

[Demon Dynasty 17,132]

1 hour ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Just cannot see his game style working in the modern game. Watched him twice at VFL level this year as well. Even in those games the opportunities to break lines were almost non existent such was the tackling pressure.

Your idea is radical but it is one of those things we could trial with a similar type of player at VFL level. (Frankly I am surprised we don't trial more game plan variations at VFL level if only for a quarter each game. Winning at that level is nice but it is far from the be all and end all.)

I don't see why not DJ!  Hopefully the VFL / AFL connection is being utilised in such a fashion at times.  Would be very helpful for the senior coaches to have this option available.

[praha 11,253]

1 hour ago, timbo said:

I am really glad I found Demonland (thanks Browney!). It is really opening my eyes to footy and is a really insightful read. You guys do an ace job.

(Also, embarrassingly, caused me to sign up as a member for the first time in the 31 years I've been barracking.)

You're bound to have among the best and worst times as a Melbourne supporter on this site.

Now, what are your thoughts on the Toumpas-Wines fiasco?