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2017 Post Mortem


dieter
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1 minute ago, Redleg said:

The unpredictability and pace of Frost was badly missed yesterday. He would have run off some of the slower big men of Collingwood and sent us forward instead of the panicked handballs or dinky kicks, that ended up as turnovers, close to their goal.

I think it was a mistake not playing him in the last two games.

Yeah I reckon the call to drop him was a tough one... and was a bit 50-50... And as you say, it looks like it wasn't the right call. I suspect if he's at demons next year, he'll be behind Lever too. So it's a tough one.

TBH tho, I don't reckon you could get the extra 20 percent in the team we needed to get through to finals. From the point we were 3-5 we were playing elimination finals every week. 14 elimination finals in a row. Phew. It's a miracle we got 4 wins in a row at all.

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3 minutes ago, Redleg said:

The unpredictability and pace of Frost was badly missed yesterday. He would have run off some of the slower big men of Collingwood and sent us forward instead of the panicked handballs or dinky kicks, that ended up as turnovers, close to their goal.

I think it was a mistake not playing him in the last two games.

Good win neds to lift his game 

he is starting to look like a dud!

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3 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

The important bits and pieces are all there. And many more besides. Would you call Hibberd, Hunt, Lewis, Melksham, Frost, Jetta, Garlett, Harmes core? Possibly not. But all have done good things. Most would be walk up starts at all the other clubs.

Hibberd, Hunt, Melksham, Jetta, and Garlett yes.  I think Harmes and Frost have to show more development to be considered genuine core.  I've been surprised by both Melksham and ANB this year.  Neither I would have considered best 22 at the start of the year, but they are now. I think next year we will start to see age catch up with Lewis (slow and doesn't body the ball) Vince (brain fades) and Jones (disposal).  My prefrerence would be to only have two in the side at any one time.  Tyson and Salem are the two I'm torn on.  

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Well it's all done & dusted. Disappointed...yes...devastated..no...I got to nearly every game this year including a couple of the interstates & thought that after the Sydney game where we had so many missing that we never really gelled or played with cohesion again... the Bulldogs game was the anomaly but they were a rabble. I think the injuries ...suspensions etc eventually took their toll & even though we had players come back in & had possibly our best side in towards the end ...it was all too late....four or more changes every week doesn't make for a confident cohesive team. I think you are also seeing this with the GWS as well. It is no coincidence that Richmond & Port who have been virtually injury free all season are in the 4 & Sydney who after an injury ridden start have pretty much been unscathed in the latter part of the season ...Geelong ..Dangerfield..say no more. Ess & WC will be bundled out pretty quickly & I have the feeling we would have been smashed & I don't know how good that would have been either. I thought out last few wins were just "ground" out victories because we are a "never give up"'side but they certainly weren't wins to give you any confidence. I am glad that Jack & Jesse can heal properly & they will have a great pre season & an even better 2018.  We have developed so many players ...got game time into so many more and that augers well for the future...we had more wins & finished higher on the ladder so from where we have come from...we have improved. Thanks Dees for the tumultuous ride ...it has been one of the best seasons in a long long time.....

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1 minute ago, grazman said:

Hibberd, Hunt, Melksham, Jetta, and Garlett yes.  I think Harmes and Frost have to show more development to be considered genuine core.  I've been surprised by both Melksham and ANB this year.  Neither I would have considered best 22 at the start of the year, but they are now. I think next year we will start to see age catch up with Lewis (slow and doesn't body the ball) Vince (brain fades) and Jones (disposal).  My prefrerence would be to only have two in the side at any one time.  Tyson and Salem are the two I'm torn on.  

Yeah I didn't suggest they were core. Core is guys like Hogan, Trac, Oliver, Gawn, Viney.. guys you pay huge dollars to and keep for ten years rain hail or shine... The guys outside the core are what I'm talking about. Lewis will play 22 next year but after that will probably either retire or do what Vince is going to do next year, and play 12 games. If we don't already have replacements, we need to draft them.

Tyson is good trade bait. He's a good player with bad disposal. You wouldn't get much but you'd get something. I would argue though that his age profile means he could be almost considered core. Salem too is pretty much core for me. By FAR our biggest need is skill. Salem is one of our top lads, and hasn't got deficiencies that get in his way.

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I hope goodwin drags them in tomorrow and tells them I hope they are hurting and we coughed up easy games. The younger players probably won't like the criticism because these days you cant give them a spray. Maybe get Peter Jackson to talk to them. He would be angry. 

At least Viney can get his foot right for pre season, Hogan get that hammy fixed and we can get some more talent to this club. 

I suspect a few players will wake up tomorrow wondering what the hell happened. 

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5 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

I stopped reading right there.

Stupidest post I've read on here in a while.

Fair dinkum. I know everyone is upset. But you don't go blind when you're upset.

Spencer and King have done nothing.

Vince's kicking is a menace to the order of the universe.  We are flush with dynamos in the midfield where he does less damage.

Lewis is knackered.

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1 minute ago, steve_f said:

Spencer and King have done nothing.

Vince's kicking is a menace to the order of the universe.  We are flush with dynamos in the midfield where he does less damage.

Lewis is knackered.

I was highlighting the Lewis part only. Apologies for not being clearer.

Vince's kicking is high risk. He's getting older and is starting to belt blokes. Goody knows and both have said publicly already that if he wants to play next year he will have to spend some time in the VFL. IN other words, he's a role player. As always he's played some sensational footy for us and been not so great other times. Is always reliable to have a dip though, and is a better option that some of the other players like JKH at this stage.

Lewis will finish high on our B and F. He's nowhere near knackered. In fact, while the rest of the team went on break a month early he held his head up. The last few rounds we'd have been out weeks ago without him. Without a doubt the weirdest movement on demonland these days is the sack Lewis movement. I suspect it has to do with the fact he's playing a different role in this squad and is an ex Hawk. Can't be form, skill or application. He's been great all year while excuses are made for others.

Vince will play 10-15 games next year and then retire a few rounds before the end. Lewis will go as close as he can to 22 injury and suspension permitting... then will do what Vince does this coming season, only a year later. We traded for him for 3 years, and that's what we'll get.

Trade him? Seriously? Do you know what we gave up to get him? Next to nothing. You think he'd be worth more now?

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I think our list is capable it's just that we don't do the basics well enough

We didn't lay a tackle until the 11 minute mark of the 1st quarter, our pressure throughout the game was up and down

Our ball handling was horrible and our decision making was shocking,

We don't need a team of superstars we just need 22 players to perform their role which we didn't get enough this season. On the bright side we have a competent list management team. NM finished 17th and there about to offer a player 1.3m a year. That will end in disaster for their club. Ablett as a one man band didn't take GC anywhere near a premiership

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11 minutes ago, Je Roos Salem said:

Improve the list, but far from an overhaul please. The players need to know each other and care, we can't just keep replacing them

Way back in Primary School, the teacher used to split you and you friend up to stop you mucking about.  So you are in effect implying that the coach has control of his class.  Not that I am seeing.

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Just now, Je Roos Salem said:

Improve the list, but far from an overhaul please. The players need to know each other and care, we can't just keep replacing them

We need a great list and in order to get a great list, we need to be brutally honest about where we sit.  A premiership team normally has about 15 plus top players all playing well for a great majority of the games.   We are a fair way off.  The jump from the middle ground to the top echelon is a great one.

This year, I can only count about 5 - 7 players who we could be satisfied with ... Oliver,  Jones,  Jetta,  T-Mac,  Hibberd and maybe Hunt & Lewis.  The rest were either inconsistent,  injured,  average,  developing or they're finished.

We lack height and marking power in defence and in the forward line and we're too slow in terms of leg speed and ball movement.  Sometimes we're good and occasionally we're excellent.  But for a lot of the time we're found lacking.

At least 7 - 8 changes to the list is required.

For the record I was saying the same sort of thing (here) in 2011, 2012, 2013 & 2014 but we needed double-digit changes in those years - and that's what happened.  I'm not one to overrate players.

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2 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

We must be very active in the trade period.

11 [censored] years of rebuilding, drafting, trading, new coaches etc and we are still a mentally soft team with a losing culture. 

What difference will one or two players make, when not one person in our leadership team turned up on Saturday? (Viney obviously excluded). 

We drafted mature guys like Lewis and Hibberd to help, and neither have. Hibberd has been excellent but had a stinker when it mattered most, and Lewis has been a total disappointment. Just cashing in his pay checks on the way to retirement with his 4 medals. Could not care less. 

The problem isn't one of talent. Hell we have a better list than Essendon and West Coast and if you take out Danger we have as good a list as Geelong. We are not far off Port either. Our list is not the problem right now. Yes maybe we are missing a few players to win a flag "on paper", but what we are missing most is an intangible winning culture. 

Our players are soft, they buckle under pressure, and yet they are so quick to drink their own bath water. Even putting our foot down against the wooden spooners 2 weeks ago would have seen us make finals. But no, we have a lazy list, we have morons on the cusp of selection going out drinking on 6 day breaks, we have repeated offenders getting themselves suspended and hurting the team (we have sucked since that Sydney game and the Bugg incident). We have players enjoying too much media spotlight and not enough hard ball gets. 

The club sent out a "get ready for finals" email this week. This just says it all, we believe we don't have to push at a rate of 100% every single second of every single game. We come out limp and disinterested in games, in quarters, hell we come out against bottom feeder clubs and get beaten. We just don't have a list that cares enough. Yes I'm sure Jones is gutted, I'm sure some of the rest are too, but as a club not one person stood up on Saturday and made finals happen. Not the coach and not the players. 

11 years of absolute irrelevance and nothing has changed. Our list on paper might be a lot better, but it matters little as long as our attitude and mental fortitude is as pissweak as it has always been. 

Wish I knew the answers to fix this, but I don't. Clearly nobody does. 

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12 minutes ago, dees189227 said:

I hope goodwin drags them in tomorrow and tells them I hope they are hurting and we coughed up easy games. The younger players probably won't like the criticism because these days you cant give them a spray. Maybe get Peter Jackson to talk to them. He would be angry. 

At least Viney can get his foot right for pre season, Hogan get that hammy fixed and we can get some more talent to this club. 

I suspect a few players will wake up tomorrow wondering what the hell happened. 

My concern is that the next time I see the players will be them running around in fancy dress enjoying mad Monday... might put my foot through the screen.

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1 hour ago, deebug said:

Jack Viney is the heart and soul of our footy club, he like us are hurting like crazy right now, but i bet he will be the one that will be the first back at training in the summer.:mad:

I agree completely. Viney plays the last 2 weeks - we play finals.

Our kids are fine - Trac, Gus, Oliver, ANB, Hannan, Hunt. Even Wagner, Strech. They're just talented kids.

Our leaders (excluding Viney) are poor .  Jones - love him, but cant seem to inspire. Vince - nuff said. Lewis - useful organiser, but not a leader. Tmac - should be, isn't. Pelo - doing his best. Hibberd - great, but not a leader at the moment. Nev - wonderful, but not a leader.

That's the issue, and the answer is Viney. 

Get fit, kid!

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It's a mistake to bring the season down to just one game, as if a better first quarter against the Pies changes everything. It doesn't. We should never have been in that position (having to win the last game) in the first place, the damage - such as it was - was done earlier in the year, especially in those games where we had quarters (or halves) where we just didn't turn up. Making finals would have left us all feeling a lot better, but would only really have papered over the cracks. Perhaps there's some benefit in having our faces rubbed in our shortcomings, I'd hope so or else the loss to Collingwood (and North etc.) will have been for nothing.

I do think the injury/suspension issues affected us a) through having important players out, but just as importantly b) creating a situation where there was a real lack of continuity in the structure of the side we were putting on the field each week. To take just one example, Tom Mac became an effective forward, but then he can't just return to the backline and be expected to perform as if he's been there all year, something which then has a flow-on effect through the whole team. On the other hand, that did create some opportunities for the developing players, so hopefully even there there's an upside further down the track.

And I think that's the key here. The time to be assessing this season isn't now, it's in a couple of years. If looking back we can see that this season was the one that helped sort out the wheat from the chaff, understand the need for consistency, and put in place the building blocks for a serious tilt at a premiership, then it will have been a success, or at least an important stepping stone towards success. For the moment, hard to see or say. Plenty of positives, lots to like, moving in the right direction ... but only time will tell if we've been able to address some of our key weaknesses.

Edited by bing181
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32 minutes ago, Redleg said:

The unpredictability and pace of Frost was badly missed yesterday. He would have run off some of the slower big men of Collingwood and sent us forward instead of the panicked handballs or dinky kicks, that ended up as turnovers, close to their goal.

I think it was a mistake not playing him in the last two games.

Sorry 'Red' but that's rubbish. Frost would have turned it over with the best of them. See him (and others) for what he is, not of what you dream him to be.

The only mistake we will make is not trading hard and players like Frost, Kent, Tyson, Salem and others with some value should all be on the table.

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31 minutes ago, Deestar9 said:

Well it's all done & dusted. Disappointed...yes...devastated..no...I got to nearly every game this year including a couple of the interstates & thought that after the Sydney game where we had so many missing that we never really gelled or played with cohesion again... the Bulldogs game was the anomaly but they were a rabble. I think the injuries ...suspensions etc eventually took their toll & even though we had players come back in & had possibly our best side in towards the end ...it was all too late....four or more changes every week doesn't make for a confident cohesive team. I think you are also seeing this with the GWS as well. It is no coincidence that Richmond & Port who have been virtually injury free all season are in the 4 & Sydney who after an injury ridden start have pretty much been unscathed in the latter part of the season ...Geelong ..Dangerfield..say no more. Ess & WC will be bundled out pretty quickly & I have the feeling we would have been smashed & I don't know how good that would have been either. I thought out last few wins were just "ground" out victories because we are a "never give up"'side but they certainly weren't wins to give you any confidence. I am glad that Jack & Jesse can heal properly & they will have a great pre season & an even better 2018.  We have developed so many players ...got game time into so many more and that augers well for the future...we had more wins & finished higher on the ladder so from where we have come from...we have improved. Thanks Dees for the tumultuous ride ...it has been one of the best seasons in a long long time.....

Great post?

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1 hour ago, dees189227 said:

No surprise but I first saw it on Warwick Cappers account. No I dont follow him but I stupidly put in melbourne fc to see what people were saying. 

This is all David King's fault and the medias saying we could be top 4 and do some damage. 

I have a feeling the media are going to be out and doing some door stopping on us tomorrow. 

On another note just saw a crciket score. Aus 2-14. Warner failed again. 

Warner is a flat track spud killer.

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12 minutes ago, bing181 said:

It's a mistake to bring the season down to just one game, as if a better first quarter against the Pies changes everything. It doesn't. We should never have been in that position (having to win the last game) in the first place, the damage - such as it was - was done earlier in the year, especially in those games where we had quarters (or halves) where we just didn't turn up.

Exactly. We didn't miss finals just because of yesterday. We missed finals because we put the cue in the rack last week. We missed finals because we lost to North Melbourne twice. We missed finals because we let Hawthorn and Fremantle win by under a goal. We missed finals because we were regularly caught napping in the last 30 seconds of quarters.

The season was dead and buried long before Round 23, and deep down most supporters knew it.

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This is the lowest I've felt as a Melbourne supporter, ever.

The time for assessing the individual players and the list overall will come.

But we can bring in some players, delist some players, trade some players, whatever, that's not going to solve the bigger issues at the club which, after three years of Roos and a year of Goodwin, remain.

Of the 10 games we lost this year, 5 were to teams in the bottom 7.

Compare that with our direct rivals: West Coast lost 3, Essendon lost 3, Port lost 0, the Dogs only lost 2, St Kilda lost 0.

We continually lose games in the same fashion - we turn off for periods. Doing it every now and again is excusable, but there are no excuses for it continuing to happen at the worst times against poor quality opposition.

The common thread in all 5 of our losses to the bottom 7 was a lack of intensity. We led Fremantle by 5 goals and then switched off. We didn't show up until Hawthorn and Collingwood were 40 points up. And we never properly showed up against North either time.

We showed the same problem in letting Brisbane, Port and St Kilda all back into our three most recent wins. 

We showed when we were "on", we were good enough to beat Adelaide in Adelaide, West Coast in Perth, the Dogs at Etihad by 10 goals, Essendon at Etihad. But I reckon we only played two or three 4-quarter games all year (Adelaide, West Coast, the Dogs. Maybe St Kilda in Round 1).

If we can't learn to beat the bad clubs, then we're never going to make it.

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