POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 9

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Sure. And it is entirely our own fault. It is above the shoulders, always has been for years. 

We have the talent, even without Gawn to win these games BUT the Application and will to hurt for 4 Quarters is not yet there, as a standard yet. 

I feel sorry for Pedo, he gave 120% yesterday, tried so hard but others made crucial basic errors when they were needed. 

That said Nought Melbourne would never have beaten the Crows in Adelaide, they did it on Neutral Grass, wwhich is why i am so frustrated. We can no longer defend on our own MCG. 

Not neutral grass, its their second home with tricky wind conditions that they know how exploit.

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

30 minutes ago, Macca said:

I was never blaming the forwards alone ... I also am looking at the fact that we didn't have an advantage in the ruck (no Gawn)

Last year against North Gawn got 25 taps to advantage in that narrow loss.  And we've replaced Gawn with Pedersen.  Therefore, Goldstein became a weapon yesterday.  I'd be surprised if he doesn't attract votes from the coaches.

When the game was up for grabs in the 3rd quarter yesterday, we couldn't get our hands on it.  Again, the influence of Goldstein.  And when we did win enough of the ball in the first half but we often wasted it or our forwards let us down.

We're going to sometimes win games without a ruckman but to expect to always win with Pedersen as our ruckman is totally unrealistic.

I was not surprised at all by yesterday's loss.  Our weaknesses are our weaknesses.  As previously stated, we badly miss Gawn & Hogan.  And we've only got about 13-14 'starting 22' players.   The rest are interchangeable.

 

I think we are in agreement   But we simply dont have viable specialist ruck options until Max is back and we have to do what we can with what we've got.

[TickleMeTyson 137]

18 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

We are a different side this year and we're hamstrung without two of our best 5 players.  Midfielders can be easier to cover, talls not so much.

I'd like to see how other sides go without these two players (eg. GWS without Cameron and Mumford).  They would be in the same boat.

If supporters can't see that we've improved then that's totally up to them, but they're wrong.

Hit the nail on the head. Just a simple thought experiment really, take out the best ruck and best key forward of any side (particularly those in the eight given the even season) and see what you're left with. Goodwin talks about opportunity because he is a positive coach, but when you're going against the best (fit) ruckman in the league with two established key defenders, personnel matters. 

Adelaide (who also lost to North) wouldn't be the same without Jacobs or Tex, Port without Ryder or Dixon, and we've seen what Naitanui means to West Coast, now also take out Kennedy. Freo without Sandilands the list goes on!

Obviously personnel isn't the only reason we struggled yesterday, and I'm not excusing that putrid first quarter effort.  We have some attitude problems no doubt but for anyone to say we haven't improved overall is nonsense, our percentage shows we've been in every game.

It is a roller-coaster of a year, I can't get off and sometimes feel like throwing up, but I enjoy going each week and if a couple of things had gone our way the win tally would be far greater.

[Macca 16,967]

1 hour ago, Travis16 said:

I think we are in agreement   But we simply dont have viable specialist ruck options until Max is back and we have to do what we can with what we've got.

Yeah I agree ... and we'll sometimes come up short because we don't have viable rucks (right now)  We can still win any game without a ruckman (the Adelaide win for instance) but with Gawn, our chances of winning any of these games increases quite a lot.

Even though I wasn't expecting a win I'm still filthy that we lost.  And we might have won the game if our forwards had played much better.  Too much angst is directed at our backmen and the blame is disproportionate as to what it should be.

Our forwards had plenty of opportunities too ... our inside 50 count was reasonable enough.  Again, our forwards play from behind too much.  Hogan makes a difference of course but I can see the club trading for another tall forward as well as another forward/ruck.

 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Macca

[Soidee 1,496]

16 hours ago, Deemented Are Go! said:

Hmm. Big call. No doubt his form has been ordinary. Who is the best alternative, though?

It won't and shouldn't happen this year. Hand over to Viney next year.  Poor old Jonesy has done his best. He carries all the baggage of our sorry past.

[Demonised 1,354]

Deliberate trips - and at significant moments. You used to get reported for that.

[loges 6,767]

10 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

Love how Watts gets potted after every loss on this forum

Awesome

Just had to give an option for the long kick forward. Didn't !

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

37 minutes ago, Demonised said:

Deliberate trips - and at significant moments. You used to get reported for that.

Yep that trip on trac was telling

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

@Unleash Hell Pretty certain your GIF avatar, was us all on sunday night...

or this

Edited May 22, 2017 by Danelska

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

2 hours ago, america de cali said:

Not neutral grass, its their second home with tricky wind conditions that they know how exploit.

Yes but how many games do they play down there. Not a huge amount...

[Demi Dee 578]

22 minutes ago, Danelska said:

@Unleash Hell Pretty certain your GIF avatar, was us all on sunday night...

or this

Danelska, I'm a bit concerned by your obsession with toasters in the bath. Maybe try playing with them in a safer manner, like taking them for a walk. They come with a built in lead. As long as your wearing a Richmond/Melbourne jumper, the cry for help will be understood by all whom observe you. 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

Thanks @Demi Dee, I only have one gag in the arsenal...

[jumbo returns 6,741]

1 hour ago, loges said:

Just had to give an option for the long kick forward. Didn't !

He did - watch the replay

Kicks were ill directed or didn't make the distance

[Older demon 2,741]

Until we can settle our goal to goal line we will be up and down. The Roos had Tarrant, Thompson, Cunnington, Waite and Brown up the spine and they all took a lot of contested marks. Hawthorn beat us boasting Frawley, Stratton, Burgoyne, O'Brien and Gunston. Essendon have Hurley, Hartley, Merret, Hooker and Daniher so unless we play keepings off these guys dominate. 

We have yet to settle the spine with loss of Garland, both Smith's (in their first year) and Hogan. Weid, Oscar, Frost and Hannan is going to struggle from time to time. In the JLT we were using Spencer as the other big body and we rely on Gawn to take the contested marks down back. Our key postion playesr need time to develop or we need to recruit. I love the way Frost plays, Tommy Mac is are main key defender and Hoges the key forward but who else would get a game elsewhere. Gold Coast and GWS both were able to get all the best key position players in the last 5 years.

I hope Joel comes in and develops into a key back, I hope Weid develops into a key forward but both are 2 seasons away. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

6 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

At 0-6 they were

stop making excuses for a game once we should have won. 

It's all above the shoulders. 16 losses against a club nobody teally wants. 

We had loads of chances to win yesterday "But running towards goal we handball sideways to a stationary player..."

why?

we were doing that when Neeld was in charge, are these players over coached so that all natural instincts are quashed?

or is it just an MFC thing....

Yep it's an MFC thing, the club is doomed, doomed I tell you!!

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

You never want to go down the path of saying the umps cost us a game but I'm standing at the gate , it's open ..... 

I rarely like to complain about the umps (as in effecting the outcome of a game) but they were nothing short of pathetic yesterday. 

[Pates 9,660]

3 hours ago, Soidee said:

It won't and shouldn't happen this year. Hand over to Viney next year.  Poor old Jonesy has done his best. He carries all the baggage of our sorry past.

Are people so quickly forgetting that at the start of the year it was Jones that was putting in the "captains performance" while in the same breath saying Viney had been ruined?

This co-captaincy is a transition and I doubt it's a transition over one year. Jones had a mare on the weekend, particularly in the last quarter when the game was up for grabs, but he is still our captain and he played very well against Adelaide last week when people were claiming us to be contenders. 

I feel almost every club is going through a roller coaster this year (us more than others it seems). The team choked over the weekend, as we seem to do all too often, but there's improvement in most areas and the game in Adelaide showed what happens when it clicks. I said it somewhere else but I've stopped thinking finals because A) this season is so unpredictable, and B) I can't seem to get a handle on any form line for us. I'm just going to ride it out this year. 

[Macca 16,967]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I rarely like to complain about the umps (as in effecting the outcome of a game) but they were nothing short of pathetic yesterday. 

A day later and the obvious problem - height.  In the ruck, the forward line and to a lesser degree, the backline. 

The backline height deficiency seems the obvious one but that deficiency is the end product of our lack of height in the ruck & in the forward line.

The backline issues are diminished if we do well in the ruck, our midfield then gets on top and if we've got good competitive height in the forward line, the midfielders have targets to kick it to.  The ball is then less likely to come flying into our backline at good speed from their midfield or their defence (which, in turn, places undue pressure on our key position defenders)

Cause & effect.

As others have said, our plan should always be to be superior to the opposition so as the umpires have little effect.  Where as we never had the cattle in previous years, we're now short on cattle in key areas.  Mainly through injury although we need to recruit a KPF and a Forward/Ruck.  And probably another ruckman.

These recruits can replace some of those who are heading for delistment.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

15 minutes ago, Macca said:

A day later and the obvious problem - height.  In the ruck, the forward line and to a lesser degree, the backline. 

The backline height deficiency seems the obvious one but that deficiency is the end product of our lack of height in the ruck & in the forward line.

The backline issues are diminished if we do well in the ruck, our midfield then gets on top and if we've got good competitive height in the forward line, the midfielders have targets to kick it to.  The ball is then less likely to come flying into our backline at good speed from their midfield or their defence (which, in turn, places undue pressure on our key position defenders)

Cause & effect.

As others have said, our plan should always be to be superior to the opposition so as the umpires have little effect.  Where as we never had the cattle in previous years, we're now short on cattle in key areas.  Mainly through injury although we need to recruit a KPF and a Forward/Ruck.  And probably another ruckman.

These recruits can replace some of those who are heading for delistment.

Of course. TMac out of defence is a massive loss and our KPF stocks are currently non existent.

That doesn't excuse the pathetic umpiring display though. Anyone watching for the first time would assume there was some corruption going on.

[Macca 16,967]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Of course. TMac out of defence is a massive loss and our KPF stocks are currently non existent.

That doesn't excuse the pathetic umpiring display though. Anyone watching for the first time would assume there was some corruption going on.

Anyone watching for the first time could assume that there are no rules at all.  If seasoned watchers are clueless then first-timers have no hope. 

I blame the government.

 

[DeeZee 7,393]

I blame Mabo and The Vibe

[Bitter but optimistic 22,239]

23 hours ago, TRIGON said:

Biffin this response is sorely lacking in perspective! What if his ankles heal?

Correct TRI - a typical half arsed effort from Biffen.

[Skuit 10,031]

47 minutes ago, Macca said:

A day later and the obvious problem - height.  In the ruck, the forward line and to a lesser degree, the backline. 

The backline height deficiency seems the obvious one but that deficiency is the end product of our lack of height in the ruck & in the forward line.

The backline issues are diminished if we do well in the ruck, our midfield then gets on top and if we've got good competitive height in the forward line, the midfielders have targets to kick it to.  The ball is then less likely to come flying into our backline at good speed from their midfield or their defence (which, in turn, places undue pressure on our key position defenders)

 

It's the height, stupid!

Not just the height, but the body-shape/size and experience of that height. Omac is our tallest defender and is a comparative featherweight. Weideman is our tallest forward (I will refuse to acknowledge Watts' actual height until he stops refusing to expose his ribs). Meanwhile, our first ruck is 192cm, and we have to rob scant height from our forward and back-lines as coverage.

We get rightly criticized when we bomb it long, but other teams can do it with more confidence. Which means we have to possess more and find other avenues to goal, which means harder running and more turnovers. Ditto, coming out of defense.

If we had the opportunity, we would have likely selected both Majak Daw and Brayden Preuss yesterday. Speaks volumes.

 

[Macca 16,967]

9 minutes ago, Skuit said:

Not just the height, but the body-shape/size and experience of that height. Omac is our tallest defender and is a comparative featherweight. Weideman is our tallest forward (I will refuse to acknowledge Watts' actual height until he stops refusing to expose his ribs). Meanwhile, our first ruck is 192cm, and we have to rob scant height from our forward and back-lines as coverage.

We get rightly criticized when we bomb it long, but other teams can do it with more confidence. Which means we have to possess more and find other avenues to goal, which means harder running and more turnovers. Ditto, coming out of defense.

If we had the opportunity, we would have likely selected both Majak Daw and Brayden Preuss yesterday. Speaks volumes.

And as someone else remarked, the MCG is a ground for big men.

But many are sick to death of losing games and they are tired of the excuses.  I don't mind the angst, the hue & cry and the venting.  That comes with the passion. 

But we now have genuine reasons for dropping games but those reasons are coming at the wrong time for many. 

I do believe that we left ourselves short a ruckman though and I can never understand why we need so many 'in between' players on our list.  We could have rookied a mature-age ruckman and paid him a bit above award.  There are ways.

And perhaps the MC had a bit too much faith in Weideman although we did draft Hulett as well.  Neither of them have come on though.  We may well have gone overboard on the same type of midfielder and left ourselves short in the tall stakes (no pun intended)  We've got an abundance of half-back flankers as well. 

I suppose we're just strong in some areas of the list and not-so-strong in other areas.

[Pates 9,660]

16 minutes ago, Macca said:

And perhaps the MC had a bit too much faith in Weideman although we did draft Hulett as well.  Neither of them have come on though.  We may well have gone overboard on the same type of midfielder and left ourselves short in the tall stakes (no pun intended)  We've got an abundance of half-back flankers as well. 

I think the club had faith that if injuries (or other factors) were to occurre it would be even across the ground. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case with our club being decimated with injuries (and circumstances) to our talls brigade. If Garland hadn't done his knee that keeps pressure on OMac and we have a mature player to step in as a KPP. If we hadn't lost BOTH our ruckman and back up ruckman we wouldn't be cobbling together a makeshift ruck division taking players away from their natural position. And if Hogan hadn't somehow [censored] off the gods so much as to not only have his father pass away but also contract testicular cancer than we could've sent Weiderman back to develop as he should, in the VFL. 

We actually had a fairly even list when it came to back ups and such, it's just one area has been badly hit. 

I look at the ladder and shake my head, with a bit of luck and composure we could be top 4. The first part you can't control, the second is all us.