POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

[Wiseblood 24,636]

10 hours ago, bing181 said:

This is the ball coming in which lead to the McCarthy goal:

Oscar McDonald wouldn't have spoiled it - he would have marked it.  We win.

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

8 hours ago, A F said:

Surely, they practice for these situations and surely, they have different set ups for defending a lead or a stoppage that could result in surrendering the lead.

I don't think it's good enough that we find out the hard way that a situation like this needs some correction. No [censored], Goody. At the very least, play man on man. 

Yeh look I can't disagree with the angst, and I still haven't digested it completely myself.

We rolled the dice and lost'. Me personally I am happy to move on to next week, some of you might not be ready and that's ok. A couple of final bits

I also strongly believe it was composure that cost us the game and not that final play. Take for example the last goal of the 2nd qtr. Or Harmes missing in the 3rd. You take away that goal and add harmes and we are up by 6 goals we win that match.

I am not going to beat up or get overly emotional because they boys are creating the opportunities, they're just not finishing.

 

[Cheap Seats 3,300]

8 hours ago, Skuit said:

Is this a portmanteau of venereal and vulnerable?

I'm just poor at English m8.

[Lucifers Hero 37,009]

7 hours ago, A F said:

I'm not sure we have an answer on the list at the moment. I don't think Lewis should be captain, but definitely VC. I'm not convinced in 2017 or 2018, Jones or Viney should be captain. I think Saturday was a real test of their leadership material without Max and Jordy. They failed miserably. What can be done?

Sad but true.  My worry with Jones and Viney is they don't have much footy smarts nor are they good readers of the play.  You have them or you don't, they don't. 

Having watched the replay Watts was a leader all day: He congratulated and encouraged nearly every goal kicker.  He led from the front in the sense that he was all over the ground, threw himself into every contest and he was involved in quite a few plays that ended in goals.  He could see what was needed at the end and wanted to go down back to defend our small lead but wasn't allowed to. 

I'm not in any way suggesting that Watts should be captain or even in the leadership team.  But he certainly showed up the lack of leadership and footy smarts from the three official leaders on the ground.  

Watts was the glue that held the team together just as he was vs Geelong.  McD, Jones and Viney just played to their own separate tunes all day and forgot about 'team first'.  Yes, they failed miserably. 

[Biffen 12,323]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Sad but true.  My worry with Jones and Viney is they don't have much footy smarts nor are they good readers of the play.  You have them or you don't, they don't. 

Having watched the replay Watts was a leader all day: He congratulated and encouraged nearly every goal kicker.  He led from the front in the sense that he was all over the ground, threw himself into every contest and he was involved in quite a few plays that ended in goals.  He could see what was needed at the end and wanted to go down back to defend our small lead but wasn't allowed to. 

I'm not in any way suggesting that Watts should be captain or even in the leadership team.  But he certainly showed up the lack of leadership and footy smarts from the three official leaders on the ground.  

Watts was the glue that held the team together just as he was vs Geelong.  McD, Jones and Viney just played to their own separate tunes all day and forgot about 'team first'.  Yes, they failed miserably. 

 Yet Goodwin promoted the other Jack who has been down dramatically ,and for no apparent reason- whilst adding to the Watts hysteria.

We have had some stupid coaches over the years and I hope this isn't another.

Class is permanent,form is temporary.

We need the classiest ball users on the ground .

The guys who cannot kick a football properly will not play in, or take us to a grand final.

 

[Maybe next year 167]

18 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Having watched the replay Watts was a leader all day: He congratulated and encouraged nearly every goal kicker.  He led from the front in the sense that he was all over the ground, threw himself into every contest and he was involved in quite a few plays that ended in goals.  He could see what was needed at the end and wanted to go down back to defend our small lead but wasn't allowed to. 

I saw him want to go to defence also and was upset he was told to stay. His team spirit has always been there and was never in question.  I'm pretty sure Jones was told to come off with a few mins to go and he clearly did not want to. I'm not sure what happened in the last few mins in the coaches box but I'm worried. I'm very worried but time will tell. I have a feeling Goodwin is great with the young players but does not relate well to the older ones.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,089]

32 minutes ago, Maybe next year said:

I saw him want to go to defence also and was upset he was told to stay. His team spirit has always been there and was never in question.  I'm pretty sure Jones was told to come off with a few mins to go and he clearly did not want to. I'm not sure what happened in the last few mins in the coaches box but I'm worried. I'm very worried but time will tell. I have a feeling Goodwin is great with the young players but does not relate well to the older ones.

I love Chunk, but I did witness the following-

After our last goal (7th?) in the 2nd qtr I distinctly remember JHunt running from near the bench in readiness for the ball up and motioning with his hands to Jones to slow it down, probably knowing how long was to go for the qtr.

We will never know what Jones said but he clearly pointed towards our goals as if gesturing "no, let's go again". Hunt appeared to keep talking but Jones was looking away.

Freo goaled on the siren.

[Maldonboy38 5,861]

I have taken my time to read a lot of Demonland posts, re-watch the game etc... I agree that the loss is very frustrating and it is one of those "we should have won that" kind of game. But I am also reminded of a lot of comments around January that the main hope for many in 2017 was that we would be competitive in every game, that we could go the footy without a knot in our guts knowing we would lose. We are playing good, watchable footy. Not perfect, but VERY watchable. I am genuinely pleased about that and the fact that our two losses have been by small margins. Two things are heavily impacting our games and both are very fixable:

1. Leadership. Viney is struggling and is not showing leadership. Lewis - whose influence is greater that we give it credit for - is a huge loss for us. So this leaves poor Nathan Jones as once again the lone soldier, with a little help from TMac. Vince is not a leader. We need Lewis back on the ground and we need Viney to be given a huge rev up or spray or something. 

2. Injuries/suspensions/poor form. Hogan, Lewis, Gawn, Hibberd, Tyson, Kent, Brayshaw, J Smith ... Our best 25-26 players is yet to settle, and it is looking like Weideman & Vince may not be in our best. A bit more trial and error over the 3 next 4 weeks unfortunately. 

Queen's Birthday is looming as a date when our team might be settled, and we can begin to gauge where our season is going. Or at least I hope so because it is all a bit unclear just at the moment.  

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,582]

In posting this I fully acknowledge that we should not be putting undue expectations on a developing Weid to carry the forwardline in the absence of other key forwards.  Having said all that I think his selection and subsequent performance was a huge disappointment and a meaningful contributor to the loss.  In modern footy you can not have any passengers and he has been that for the past two weeks.  

Someonesuggested that he may have been in the team for 'structure' - what a load of crap.  He has contributed nothing to the structure for the past two weeks, no presence and virtually no tackles which suggests little/no forward pressure.  Played injured yesterday?  For how long?  Presumably he was not injured in the first half and still did nothing.  That is the thing I find most disappointing that he showed little intensity, effort or intent.  Sure we had other players like Viney and perhaps Bernie Vince who have been down on their best in the past few games, but I would never question their effort and agression at the football.

All this in the context of having a more than serviceable replacement in the form of Pedesen.  Pedesen rarely (if ever) let us down last season when given an opportunity.  Also  despite my previous  comment on the matter, I'm not completely against using Watts in the ruck, but yesterday I felt his impact in the ruck was minimal and his impact as a forward was great.  Playing Pedesen would have allowed us to minimise Jack's time rucking and maximised his value as a forward.  I really don't understand why we bothered resigning Pedesen if ever there was a time to use him, it was yesterday.  Dropping Smith also baffled me completely.

[Gator 16,892]

2 hours ago, shorty said:

Clarify is not an A grader yet just a 19 yr old kid trying to make his way in the game.

 

His numbers are most definitely A-grade, although I agree a player needs two years of such sustained performances, not 4 games.

Presently he's top 10 in the AFL for disposals, contested possessions, clearances, centre clearances, marks and AFL ranking points.

The only other player top 10 in all of the above categories is Rockliff.  Dangerfield will be the only other top 10 for all categories if he lays 11 tackles today and Selwood if he has a good day should join him.

What Oliver is doing is extraordinary.

[Demonsone 1,598]

Very easy to pick out single moments & whilst I agree that the decision making was poor ..  let's not forget all the missed chances to seal the game & the pathetic 3/4 qtr were we lost the game!

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,582]

Despite the obvious disapotment of Saturday's loss of what was more than a winnable game, I did take away a few positives:

1. Spencer's game;

2. Jayden Hunt continues to grow and flourish as a player;

3.  Was encouraging that a number of our players nailed goals under high pressure in the last quarter and at other times - Watts (usually does anyway), ABN (I think has shown himself as generally a reliable set shot on goal, but was good that he stood up in this regard yesterday), Salem's lovely little snap, Jeffy (has generally fixed his set shot yips all year) and lastly Viney (though somewhat negated by his spray after the double 50, but thought that the strong mark and subsequent goal were good signs).

Edited April 17, 2017 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,582]

1 hour ago, Hell Bent said:

I love Chunk, but I did witness the following-

After our last goal (7th?) in the 2nd qtr I distinctly remember JHunt running from near the bench in readiness for the ball up and motioning with his hands to Jones to slow it down, probably knowing how long was to go for the qtr.

We will never know what Jones said but he clearly pointed towards our goals as if gesturing "no, let's go again". Hunt appeared to keep talking but Jones was looking away.

Freo goaled on the siren.

Yep, those late red time goals are really hurting us in the last two games.

[gregdemon 530]

52 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Despite the obvious disapotment of Saturday's loss of what was more than a winnable game, I did take away a few positives:

1. Spencer's game;

2. Jayden Hunt continues to grow and flourish as a player;

3.  Was encouraging that a number of our players nailed goals under high pressure in the last quarter and at other times - Watts (usually does anyway), ABN (I think has shown himself as generally a reliable set shot on goal, but was good that he stood up in this regard yesterday), Salem's lovely little snap, Jeffy (has generally fixed his set shot yips all year) and lastly Viney (though somewhat negated by his spray after the double 50, but thought that the strong mark and subsequent goal were good signs).

Yeah  pleased with Spencer  !!   Well done that man !!

 

[loges 6,026]

We just don't play a strong 4 quarter game, against Saints it was the 1st, Blues it was the 3rd, Cats it was the last (albeit with excuses) and dockers the 3rd. I understand there will always be momentum shifts during games but good sides contain the damage during these moments. Until we can play out a strong 4 quarters we will be vulnerable to these results

[Gator 16,892]

Freo win by 2 points and their best player (Fyfe) plays 91% TOG.

Oliver 72%, Tyson 73%, Kent 74%, Viney 74%, Petracca 77%. Salem 79%

And for Vogon: Lewis 0%, Hogan 0%.

[Binmans PA 26,053]

4 hours ago, shorty said:

Clarify is not an A grader yet just a 19 yr old kid trying to make his way in the game.

 

You said we have no A graders and until we get an A grader(s) we won't get there. I was merely saying that I have no doubt Oliver will get there. Your post seemed to dismiss him by not mentioning that he is as influential as a Cripps already and has barely played 20 games.

As I said somewhere else, if he keeps tracking at the rate he is, by the start of the 2018 season, he'll be one of the top 5 midfielders in the game.

[Demon Jack 6,278]

After rewatching most of the match, I was fairly happy with Frost's game. In all respect to Oscar, Frost has a real crack and won't be outbodied seven out of ten times. His speed is a serious asset as well. 

 

[Binmans PA 26,053]

8 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Freo win by 2 points and their best player (Fyfe) plays 91% TOG.

Oliver 72%, Tyson 73%, Kent 74%, Viney 74%, Petracca 77%. Salem 79%

And for Vogon: Lewis 0%, Hogan 0%.

How good is Oliver going to be when he builds that tank? Even if he rests forward for another 5% TOG at times this year.

[Gator 16,892]

6 minutes ago, A F said:

How good is Oliver going to be when he builds that tank? Even if he rests forward for another 5% TOG at times this year.

He was down on TOG % for this game, because he sat on the pine for the first 9 minutes of the last quarter.  He tried to get on, but had to sit down again, because there wasn't the required break in play.  He was then off again around the 15 minute mark.

But yes, when he has a tank and learns to use his speed out of the stoppages he'll be one of the best mids in the game.

[SFebes 4,692]

I'd throw everything at Tom Lynch from the Suns.

[Demon Dynasty 15,422]

4 hours ago, praha said:

That is infuriating.

We never learn.  5 v 3 with a few minutes to go. Laughable

[Demon Dynasty 15,422]

4 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Oscar McDonald wouldn't have spoiled it - he would have marked it.  We win.

Wise we should have had 7 v 5 minimum in that shot. You would think we are behind with that set up. Massive coaching/on field leader/s fail

[Demon Dynasty 15,422]

14 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

An absolute shambles.

Granted, Fremantle were rolling the dice significantly leaving this many players forward of centre, but regardless it's actually strains the realm of credulity to believe that, despite possessing the ball, we would have had 15 players somewhere other than in the defensive 50 with 1.46 left on the clock.

Anyone blaming Lewis, Hogan etc. it wouldn't matter who was in the team. If you aren't going to flood or at least have +2 down back when in front with 2 minutes or less to go in a tight match you aren't worth a biscuit tin as a coaching panel.

Forget the players and who did what. The F..U. on Sat in those last few minutes lays solely and squarely at the coaches and leaders feet.

Idiots

Edited April 17, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Demon Dynasty 15,422]

4 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

Yeh look I can't disagree with the angst, and I still haven't digested it completely myself.

We rolled the dice and lost'. Me personally I am happy to move on to next week, some of you might not be ready and that's ok. A couple of final bits

I also strongly believe it was composure that cost us the game and not that final play. Take for example the last goal of the 2nd qtr. Or Harmes missing in the 3rd. You take away that goal and add harmes and we are up by 6 goals we win that match.

I am not going to beat up or get overly emotional because they boys are creating the opportunities, they're just not finishing.

 

You don't roll the dice with a few minutes to go when in front U.H. Only a complete numbskull would do that. And the boys did finish, they got us in front, the coaching staff and leaders or lack of, [censored] up the last 2 minutes

Edited April 17, 2017 by Rusty Nails