POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 11

[monoccular 17,321]

17 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

The answer is to stop putting Watts in the ruck.

Who else?

17 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Should have been Dawes in the ruck Grape not Watts. Very poor coaching there IMO. You don't put a rolls royce on a 4x4 testing ground when there was a Prado running around!

Dawes won't ruck  

6 hours ago, xarronn said:

Didn't get to see the game and I'm working my way through the post game thread before I watch the replay. The matter of ducking has been brought up several times already. My post is not related to yesterdays game.

1. The rules of the game state that tackles above the shoulders are not legal

2. Ducking is different to dropping at the knees

3. The rules allow ducking to be penalised and it is.

4. Dropping at the knees is not against the rules

5. Umpires currently have no option if point 4 brings about point 1.

6.  If Clarko doesn't like his players doing that, how come the master coach hasn't eliminated it from their game?

7. Bottom Line: Umpires carry the can for many things, let's not blame them for applying the rules.

The momentum change free to debutant in front, even though he missed, was appalling.   He drove head down into the tackler, and we keep getting told this will not be paid.  A disgrace.  He didn't stage, he just caused the high contact. "Play on"!!

[titan_uranus 24,626]

17 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Who else?

Dawes won't ruck  

If Dawes won't ruck then Pedersen is a better player for that position.

[Demon Dynasty 17,094]

2 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

If Dawes won't ruck then Pedersen is a better player for that position.

You have my vote. Today's game cant afford a one dimensional forward. Watts a great example of that. We will see what the FD has in store for Dawes if he stays on the park after another week or so.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Rusty Nails

[DeeZee 7,296]

What's up with Lumumbas concussion?

4 weeks seems a long time out.

[boydie 655]

35 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Unless you have access to the 'hit outs to advantage' stat from Champion we have no way of really knowing who is better as a pinch hitting ruck Boydie, including Pedo. Pedo just happens to have played more there with Dawes out injured so often.

Watts has played maybe 3 or 4 games in that role. Dawes many more than that i would have thought. I am guessing the coaches wanted him in his first up game to just settle into a role up forward as well as getting his match fitness up without asking/demanding too much of him physically. Probably do the same in the next week or so until he does. Then push him into an occasional ruck relief role if his body holds up. He is prone to injury agreed and always a risk but only the FD/Dawes himself would know how his body is doing. Not sure how you would know he is going to be "out" of the side within the next month or so unless you have a crystal ball.

No I don't have a crystal ball, but I didn't expect every single word I wrote to be taken in the literal sense.

If I had to post a bunch of assumptions, constraints and scope with each comment I would have gone to work today instead.

[beelzebub 23,198]

We all knew it anyway you fl0g 

Umpire admits mistake giving free to Stewart.   How this might have made a difference !!

 

should have OUR kick not theirs ffs

Edited June 5, 2016 by beelzebub

[P-man 13,366]

7 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

The bolded are the bits I find as group think not those that want him out but the consistent justification that he is easily outbodied and outpositioned. If I had the time I would love someone to look at how many contests he has been in Brisbane, Port, Hawthorn and what % he has actually lost. I think this is one of those cases where one or two stick out (not surprising for a 19 year old) and then it appears he loses a lot. 

You could be right. I'm not claiming he loses every contest, but there have certainly been occasions that support what I said.

Let me add that I'm not that comfortable having so much focus on a 19 year old KPD, but his continued selection has forced our hand in a way. 

I won't be putting my hand up to review the game tapes. I only do that for 10+ goal wins

[old55 22,795]

Thought Frost was exciting down back yesterday.  Sure he had some decision/disposal howlers but his size, athleticism and speed are incredible.  If he can get development into his deficiencies he can be a very serious threat.

Also think that we need to use Hunt's run more.  Give the ball to him from marks and frees behind the centre and get him to run and kick over the lines.  His kicking is iffy but if he can see a set up where we are not outnumbered deep forward he should be given licence.  I don't mean the round the back like Mitchell who has great kicking skills, I mean straight ahead running from behind.

[Adam The God 29,381]

15 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Thought Frost was exciting down back yesterday.  Sure he had some decision/disposal howlers but his size, athleticism and speed are incredible.  If he can get development into his deficiencies he can be a very serious threat.

Also think that we need to use Hunt's run more.  Give the ball to him from marks and frees behind the centre and get him to run and kick over the lines.  His kicking is iffy but if he can see a set up where we are not outnumbered deep forward he should be given licence.  I don't mean the round the back like Mitchell who has great kicking skills, I mean straight ahead running from behind.

Spot on. Agree on all fronts there. I posted somewhere yesterday that Hunt is a more defensively capable version of Lumumba and in their premiership year, Collingwood gave to him off half back at almost every opportunity. Hunt is a far better defender than Lumumba though. Some of his spoils this year have been terrific.

I do find it strange that the FD resisted for so many weeks to throw Frost back. He looked more comfortable back there than up forward. He made some errors, but also initiated a number of fine spoils and offered rebound from defence. He was a little excitable on a couple of occasions, which led to turn overs by foot, but he'll eradicate these with more experience and instruction from the FD.

Edited June 5, 2016 by AdamFarr

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

2 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

Spot on. Agree on all fronts there. I posted somewhere yesterday that Hunt is a more defensively capable version of Lumumba and in their premiership year, Collingwood gave to him off half back at almost every opportunity. Hunt is a far better defender than Lumumba though. Some of his spoils this year have been terrific.

I do find it strange that the FD resisted for so many weeks to throw Frost back. He looked more comfortable back there than up forward. He made some errors, but also initiated a number of fine spoils and offered rebound from defence. He was a little excitable on a couple of occasions, which led to turn overs by foot, but he'll eradicate these with more experience and instruction from the FD.

Beggars belief why he was played as a forward for so long when he obviously struggled there?

I would've preferred to play Watts and Hogan and a bunch of smalls than Frost forward.

[jnrmac 19,895]

30 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

We all knew it anyway you fl0g 

Umpire admits mistake giving free to Stewart.   How this might have made a difference !!

 

should have OUR kick not theirs ffs

Mark Evans said it should have been play on. It should have been holding the ball as he had prior. The Umps have still stuffed it up/

[Adam The God 29,381]

9 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

Beggars belief why he was played as a forward for so long when he obviously struggled there?

I would've preferred to play Watts and Hogan and a bunch of smalls than Frost forward.

Yeah, I can't understand it myself. Perhaps they thought Dunn and Garland were better defensive options at the start of the season, but have now adapted and changed tact?

[P-man 13,366]

7 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

Beggars belief why he was played as a forward for so long when he obviously struggled there?

I would've preferred to play Watts and Hogan and a bunch of smalls than Frost forward.

It had many regular joes scratching their heads. He did play forward a bit as a junior I think? And maybe they thought his athletic attributes would translate well. But he looks far more potent as a defender.

Disposal needs a tidy up. A couple of his errors were under no pressure which we can't afford. We make enough under pressure.

Edited June 5, 2016 by P-man

[Dockett 32 1,237]

Was a terrible error at a critical time. Should be banished for sure and there shouldn't be any complaints .He knows he potentially ruined a game and maybe even a finals spot.

Just hopeless really.

[beelzebub 23,198]

20 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Mark Evans said it should have been play on. It should have been holding the ball as he had prior. The Umps have still stuffed it up/

Exactly..it was one thing or the other..as it WASNT a high tackle..it was OUR kick

An extremely pivotal moment of the game. Im not saying we would have won, but it's all sliding doors stuff.

[bing181 8,943]

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

Dawes won't ruck  

He did take ruck duties a few times last year, and unless I'm mistaken, rucked a few times yesterday. I suspect it's a combination of a) FD feel he offers more as a forward and b) concern with injuries.

In any case, it's the coaches' call, not Dawes.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,709]

On 04/06/2016 at 6:01 PM, Middymalt said:

Garlett go to the VFL Gawn who wins the hitouts and smacks it 20 meters the other way every time what a simpleton Dawes is a spud Trengove is the slowest player in the AFL and the umpires screwed us and trade TMac absolute brain dead spud.

Geezus what a shithouse post

[Dr. Gonzo 23,709]

20 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

The Demonland group-think surrounding Omac's form is a little perplexing. The rhetoric continues to be that he looks 'way off it'. He's not winning every contest and he makes a few errors here and there, but so does Jesse Hogan. If you compare Omac's start to Frawley's start, you could plot a similar trajectory I'd reckon.

Playing Oscar in the 2s isn't going to speed up his development, it's going to slow it. I'm glad the FD seem to agree, as they continue to play him at the highest level.

He was definitely better yesterday. The week before was pretty poor but he did ok yesterday I thought. 

[Dr. Gonzo 23,709]

10 hours ago, xarronn said:

Didn't get to see the game and I'm working my way through the post game thread before I watch the replay. The matter of ducking has been brought up several times already. My post is not related to yesterdays game.

1. The rules of the game state that tackles above the shoulders are not legal

2. Ducking is different to dropping at the knees

3. The rules allow ducking to be penalised and it is.

4. Dropping at the knees is not against the rules

5. Umpires currently have no option if point 4 brings about point 1.

6.  If Clarko doesn't like his players doing that, how come the master coach hasn't eliminated it from their game?

7. Bottom Line: Umpires carry the can for many things, let's not blame them for applying the rules.

The rules don't actually refer to ducking or dropping the knees - they talk about a player driving their head into a stationary or near stationary target which would cover off all these instances. Pay holding the ball against them and have the mrp warn/fine/suspend those who do it and it will stop in a week.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,709]

9 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

Yeah, burned by Bern. You mean the NBA playing Australian Olympian basketballer? Joe Ingles is a hell of a lot more famous outside the AFL-centric fishbowl that is Melbourne than our mate Bernie.

Never heard of him

[dazzledavey36 52,775]

2 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Geezus what a shithouse post

Seriously did you expect much from him?

[Deecisive 1,709]

Disappointed that we did not finish the game closer. The hawks were the better side, they had far more shots on goal and with a bit more luck could have given us a flogging. All in all our defense played pretty well, yes there were mistakes, stuffups but there was also a lot of intense pressure. The hawks forwards tackling was nothing short of amazing, if we had that kind of tackling in our forward line we would be potential premiers. Sadly our forwards are not chasers, nor tacklers.

I thought Dawes tried, a fair amount of the time I see dawes going for marks I see players hanging off him and he rarely gets a free. Bernie was awesome, I thought he pipped Typson for best melbourne player, possibly best on the ground. He was barrelling the ball out from full back then running around tackling mitchell and anyone else with the ball. Bernie needs to stay on the ball he is not a handballer like so many of our on ballers he barrells the ball forward 50 metres, sadly too often the opposition read the flight of the ball better than our forwards. Tyson his best game by a long shot.

As for the umpiring, it was not brilliant there were obviously a lot of frees missed with the wet conditions, and a couple of head highs that really should not have been paid. I dont understand the hypocracy of the AFL talking up concussion at the sametime continuing to reward players for ducking and getting hit. 

[Deecisive 1,709]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The rules don't actually refer to ducking or dropping the knees - they talk about a player driving their head into a stationary or near stationary target which would cover off all these instances. Pay holding the ball against them and have the mrp warn/fine/suspend those who do it and it will stop in a week.

Afraid it wont stop within a week, too may players have been playing for this for too long and are well practiced at lifting the arm, dropping the knees, bending the head down and throwing the head back. All of it needs to see as the player trying to draw / stage for a free kick.

[Dockett 32 1,237]

We used to call it staging and used to have umpires who were smart enough to never pay it, so it went away!

[P-man 13,366]

32 minutes ago, Deecisive said:

Disappointed that we did not finish the game closer. The hawks were the better side, they had far more shots on goal and with a bit more luck could have given us a flogging. All in all our defense played pretty well, yes there were mistakes, stuffups but there was also a lot of intense pressure. The hawks forwards tackling was nothing short of amazing, if we had that kind of tackling in our forward line we would be potential premiers. Sadly our forwards are not chasers, nor tacklers.

I thought Dawes tried, a fair amount of the time I see dawes going for marks I see players hanging off him and he rarely gets a free. Bernie was awesome, I thought he pipped Typson for best melbourne player, possibly best on the ground. He was barrelling the ball out from full back then running around tackling mitchell and anyone else with the ball. Bernie needs to stay on the ball he is not a handballer like so many of our on ballers he barrells the ball forward 50 metres, sadly too often the opposition read the flight of the ball better than our forwards. Tyson his best game by a long shot.

As for the umpiring, it was not brilliant there were obviously a lot of frees missed with the wet conditions, and a couple of head highs that really should not have been paid. I dont understand the hypocracy of the AFL talking up concussion at the sametime continuing to reward players for ducking and getting hit. 

Agree with most of that, but referencing the shots on goal as evidence they could've flogged us is folly. A lot of them were rushed behinds, and when you score a behind you get an opportunity to set up and create another scoring opportunity. The 58-50 inside 50 count provides a better reflection of the evenness of the contest.

Their tackling inside forward 50 was a key difference. Kent and Harmes haven't been good enough of late in this aspect especially.