We're kidding ourselves!

[DemonsTee 6]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

People have to understand the difference between positive, realistic, negative, constructive....

I think some of our players are in that make or break zone. They may be young but they are playing with the big boys now and some of them don't exhibit big boy footy.

We've had the likes of them before, Gysberts, Blease, Strauss, Tappy etc...

The current group include Harmes, Kent, Stretch, Hunt, Kennedy, ANB and I think there is another group Newton, Michie that are really VFL players now, they've had their shot at 2 clubs.

Whenever I've doubted Kent before on this forum I've had comments like "He's our most important player", "He puts on forward pressure" etc. etc. etc.....

Kent is to date a very lazy footballer who no doubt has some skill but doesn't exhibit enough at the moment and this is apart from the fact that he misses too many easy goals. I thought his game yesterday was better than some of his others this year, many think it was his worst. They have poor memories.

Omac is a kid, he does some nice things but he's not hard enough to play big boys footy yet or maybe ever...the one comment I always here about Weideman that I like is how he attacks the ball hard so I'm looking forward to seeing him when he gets his chance. Omac doesn't attack the ball hard, he's still at u18 level...he's not hungry enough and may never be, we wait and see.

Probably not all his fault in a defence, 3 of them lucky to have played 20 games between them...add Garland, I don't know what's happened to Col but he is an absolute liability at the moment.

I include the selectors in the "We're Kidding Ourselves" group, Tyson shouldn't have played yesterday, Kennedy injured himself pre game, Trengove is streets ahead of most of our list and needs to be out there now. Love the Roos BS about us waiting for him to put his hand up lol....

Positives, we are a better team and we have some legitimate future champions at the club, this is the difference to where we were a few years back. 

Hogan, Petracca and Oliver you can build a team around.

I doubted Salem as to me he wasn't living up to expectations but had a legit excuse so giving him the benefit of the doubt, he has a lot of class of that there's no doubt.  I would hope to see him and Brayshaw as really good players at the club...probably A graders without being the absolute champions the other 3 should become.

With the rest we will get some winners and some losers.

I like this post a lot! After reflecting on the game I don't think Tyson let himself down with his performance yesterday, I think the match committee let him down by selecting him when he was clearly still struggling with illness and also didn't train at all Tuesday at the club. I hope they haven't destroyed him for next week by taking him up and that he can recover and get up to play against the Hawks. When he is on, he can be a beautiful player and important in getting it out of traffic making our good guys look better. 

Hope Viney doesn't get rubbed out because I'm not sure how that helps us in the middle although besides the tag he looked to struggle too. 

Lets be honest, effectively the entire team forgot to get on the plane Thursday night at Melbourne Airport. Hearing positives about weideman and even hulett (spelling?) so can't wait to see them have a crack. Unsure as to why we didn't make a late change if indeed there was an injury in warm up? Yes the coaching group and MC are to blame, but we have to look at the players and the finger ends up being pointed. They're kidding themselves half of them I think. We have a good win one week and it seems that next week we can't produce the goods, perhaps going in too overconfident in the minds of the younger brigade. Hopefully we don't have to watch too much of that car crash from yesterday again, otherwise the end of the season seems very far 

[titan_uranus 25,018]

3 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

Someone on Demonland said yesterday (was it bing?) that the Bulldogs were 5-5 last year too. If we keep tracking as is we'll win our 10 or so games. If we build on our start to the season, I think we'll make finals. I think the latter is unlikely, but our draw is tougher in the second half. I think as long as we bring manic pressure, we can beat any opposition on our day. 

That was me. Their 5 losses also included losses to us, St Kilda and Port (9th, 13th and 14th come the end of the year).

Of course, they went 9-3 from there on, but the point to remember is that young, inexperienced sides in their first year of a much-different gameplan are bound to make mistakes along the way.

2 hours ago, Jaded said:

Someone explain to me please how the [censored] some clubs manage to have one [censored] season and bounce back like Carlton, and I'm still waiting for us to beat a real opposition after 10 years. 

It is just depressing to see Carlton doing so well. Their list isn't even that good! 

2 hours ago, Mr. White said:

Carlton have overtaken us. 

I didn't think it would take that long for the "Carlton have gone past us" brigade.

They beat Geelong. Like we did last year (albeit we did it in Geelong).

Their side was 3 months younger, on average, than the Cats', coming in at 25 yr 11m. Armfield stood out today: he's 29. Casboult is 26. Curnow is 26, Everett 27, Gibbs 27, Jamison 30, Murphy 29, Rowe 29, Simpson 32, Thomas 29, Tuohy 26, Walker 30, White 28, even Liam Jones is 25.

This is something of a makeshift side which is vastly outperforming pre-season expectations but which does not, unlike the Dogs, Giants or us, feature a nucleus of young kids around which they are building a future.

Calm down.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

5 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Our best is better than last season but we're still a long way off, mentally as well. We lose to Essendon, St Kilda and dish up that tripe yesterday. I'm now far from convinced.

Took ya long enough 

Edited May 29, 2016 by Fork 'em

[DubDee 25,860]

After yesterday and looking at the table we are no chance to make the 8 this year. With the bottom four being so bad you'll definitely need 13 wins to make it. 

Adelaide looked good in the weekend. Can't see us winning two more than them over the rest of the season

[Adam The God 30,249]

11 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

That was me. Their 5 losses also included losses to us, St Kilda and Port (9th, 13th and 14th come the end of the year).

Of course, they went 9-3 from there on, but the point to remember is that young, inexperienced sides in their first year of a much-different gameplan are bound to make mistakes along the way.

I didn't think it would take that long for the "Carlton have gone past us" brigade.

They beat Geelong. Like we did last year (albeit we did it in Geelong).

Their side was 3 months younger, on average, than the Cats', coming in at 25 yr 11m. Armfield stood out today: he's 29. Casboult is 26. Curnow is 26, Everett 27, Gibbs 27, Jamison 30, Murphy 29, Rowe 29, Simpson 32, Thomas 29, Tuohy 26, Walker 30, White 28, even Liam Jones is 25.

This is something of a makeshift side which is vastly outperforming pre-season expectations but which does not, unlike the Dogs, Giants or us, feature a nucleus of young kids around which they are building a future.

Calm down.

Apologies, TU. 

And absolutely agree with the rest of your post too.

I just texted this to my Carlton mate.

"I reckon you're (Carlton) are winning too early. Your list is being held together by older players: Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer and your mid tier older players like Armfield, Everitt, Casboult, Curnow, Walker etc. But there's not enough talent in the 18-25 demographic to get you any further than 5th to 8th in the future. Bolton is clearly a brilliant communicator and teacher, but you need at least two years of top draft picks to improve your midfield and key position stocks. I think you might get some B graders through the FA and trade period, but they won't give you a flag without more than say Cripps, a young Curnow and Weitering. It'll be interesting to see. We've got Viney, Tyson, Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw. Only two of these guys have played 50 games, the rest haven't played more than 10-20 games. These are the guys that will develop into A graders, but we're still a few A graders short of completing our midfield (I'm not counting older blokes in Jones or Vince). We'll get Prestia, but we're still at least another A grader off the midfield we need to have sustained success. We have the best forward in the land in Hogan and half decent small forwards, along with developing young key position forwards in the VFL. That's been a two year build with access to the top talent as Hawthorn had. We've actually recruited properly this time and all of these guys are tracking far above the average for their experience. Statistically speaking, Hogan is ahead of the absolute champions of the game in Carey, Riewoldt etc, the stars of the game. Oliver and Petracca are averaging 19 disposals in their first five games. Outrageous. In Judd's first season, he averaged 15 disposals. Cripps averaged 9 across his three games in his first season. You might get lucky with FA and trades, but I think you're building too quickly. Time will tell."

And yes, he did say that was the longest text message he'd ever received.

[Chris 2,892]

2 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

Apologies, TU. 

And absolutely agree with the rest of your post too.

I just texted this to my Carlton mate.

"I reckon you're (Carlton) are winning too early. Your list is being held together by older players: Murphy, Gibbs, Kreuzer and your mid tier older players like Armfield, Everitt, Casboult, Curnow, Walker etc. But there's not enough talent in the 18-25 demographic to get you any further than 5th to 8th in the future. Bolton is clearly a brilliant communicator and teacher, but you need at least two years of top draft picks to improve your midfield and key position stocks. I think you might get some B graders through the FA and trade period, but they won't give you a flag without more than say Cripps, a young Curnow and Weitering. It'll be interesting to see. We've got Viney, Tyson, Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw. Only two of these guys have played 50 games, the rest haven't played more than 10-20 games. These are the guys that will develop into A graders, but we're still a few A graders short of completing our midfield (I'm not counting older blokes in Jones or Vince). We'll get Prestia, but we're still at least another A grader off the midfield we need to have sustained success. We have the best forward in the land in Hogan and half decent small forwards, along with developing young key position forwards in the VFL. That's been a two year build with access to the top talent as Hawthorn had. We've actually recruited properly this time and all of these guys are tracking far above the average for their experience. Statistically speaking, Hogan is ahead of the absolute champions of the game in Carey, Riewoldt etc, the stars of the game. Oliver and Petracca are averaging 19 disposals in their first five games. Outrageous. In Judd's first season, he averaged 15 disposals. Cripps averaged 9 across his three games in his first season. You might get lucky with FA and trades, but I think you're building too quickly. Time will tell."

And yes, he did say that was the longest text message he'd ever received.

Are Carlton the next Port, a quick flash of being good followed by a period in the middle as the build wasn't built in a sustainable manner. The dogs are so far showing that if the build is done right then you can stay good. Our development is under the same eyes the dogs had. That guves me confidence too. 

[Adam The God 30,249]

26 minutes ago, Chris said:

Are Carlton the next Port, a quick flash of being good followed by a period in the middle as the build wasn't built in a sustainable manner. The dogs are so far showing that if the build is done right then you can stay good. Our development is under the same eyes the dogs had. That guves me confidence too. 

Quite possibly RE: Carlton. I just know I'd much rather be Melbourne than Carlton. We've also got the guy who built the Bulldogs from the ground up. I wouldn't sniff at the argument that McCartney is the most important person at our football club. Worth his weight in gold.

Edited May 29, 2016 by AdamFarr

[DemonsTee 6]

New bone to pick. Thoughts on players being spotted on for a night on the town after a putrid performance and loss? And also for some of them a decent plan trip home......?

i think majority of the playing group are kidding themselves at the moment 

[Red and Blue Flame 187]

11 minutes ago, DemonsTee said:

New bone to pick. Thoughts on players being spotted on for a night on the town after a putrid performance and loss? And also for some of them a decent plan trip home......?

i think majority of the playing group are kidding themselves at the moment 

name and shame if you're going to do that. they technically have a 7 day break so it's up to them how they spend their saturday nights

[Damo 3,356]

There might be new thinking on stopping players having a night out.

I know Adelaide Crows are encouraged/allowed to go out and have few drinks after a win by the coach.

I didnt ask but suspect its not much different after a loss. I was surprised but happy to think that a few drinks, sanctioned is better than other options. Others may know more but sounds fine to me. And really if its the Alice, why not?

[DemonsTee 6]

31 minutes ago, Red and Blue Flame said:

name and shame if you're going to do that. they technically have a 7 day break so it's up to them how they spend their saturday nights

I don't want to name and shame as you said it's up to them how they spend their nights. I was just a bit surprised to have seen a few out and about after a match 

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

On 28/05/2016 at 5:02 PM, big_red_fire_engine said:

Or maybe we are very young and still learning the balance of defence and attack? Maybe we're not quite as good as supporters/media say when we win and not as bad as supporters say when we lose like today. 

What do you think? Where do you think we have we improved and where do we need to improve immediately to push further up the ladder?

Spot on.

[Willmoy1947 4,086]

I know that Carlton is old, but by gees there was a lot of desperation in their win today. Heaps of Tackling, Touching and shepherding. I have tried to think that our players

have been showing that sort of intensity regularly enough this season but i am struggling. I hope that we will play for Goodwin and Melbourne next year with that mindset.

Whatever they're on its good. 

[titan_uranus 25,018]

30 minutes ago, willmoy said:

I know that Carlton is old, but by gees there was a lot of desperation in their win today. Heaps of Tackling, Touching and shepherding. I have tried to think that our players

have been showing that sort of intensity regularly enough this season but i am struggling. I hope that we will play for Goodwin and Melbourne next year with that mindset.

Whatever they're on its good. 

We average 67.4 tackles per game this year, ranked 11th (not good enough IMO).

Carlton averages 64.1, ranked 14th.

Don't base too much off one round.

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,243]

This is the 2012 list.  Eeekkk!!!

The current list looks like a premiership contender in comparison!!!!

2 Nathan Jones  3 Clint Bartram  4 Jack Watts  5 Jordan Gysberts  6 Matthew Bate  7 Jamie Bennell  8 James Frawley 9 Jack Trengove (c) 10 Cale Morton 11 Mitch Clark 12 Colin Sylvia 13 Jordie McKenzie 14 Lynden Dunn 15 Ricky Petterd 16 Jack Grimes (c) 17 Sam Blease 18 Brad Green 19 James Strauss 20 Colin Garland

21 Lucas Cook 22 Brent Moloney 24 Liam Jurrah 25 Tom McDonald 30 James Sellar 34 Stefan Martin 35 Luke Tapscott 36 Aaron Davey 37 Max Gawn 38 Jeremy Howe 39 Neville Jetta 40 Mark Jamar 41 Troy Davis 42 Jake Spencer 43 Rory Taggert 44 Rohan Bail 46 Josh Tynan 48 Jack Fitzpatrick

26 Daniel Nicholson  32 Michael Evans 45 Kelvin Lawrence 47 Tom Couch  49 James Magner  50 Jai Sheahan 51 Leigh Williams

 

[Little Goffy 14,542]

We had a few games in good form, then got shaky again during/since the St Kilda loss.

We've managed to thump two low level teams in that time and come through with a 5-5 record and handy percentage. We're four goals per game better off on the for-against numbers compared to last season.

Clearly we've struggled when our opponents have been able to effectively counter-attack or effectively confuse and break down our own high-risk attacking strategy.

Clearly we have waves of bad form knock five or six players to half their usual production for seemingly random games.

Right now we are neither 'the next big thing' or 'the perennial losers'.

But what drives me crazy, and I think a lot of others, is that in any given week we could look like one or the other.

Hawks, Magpies, Swans and Crows to come. There will be nowhere to hide for the next four weeks. I'm not going to mutter any more about our form until we've done that run of four games.

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

11 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

We had a few games in good form, then got shaky again during/since the St Kilda loss.

We've managed to thump two low level teams in that time and come through with a 5-5 record and handy percentage. We're four goals per game better off on the for-against numbers compared to last season.

Clearly we've struggled when our opponents have been able to effectively counter-attack or effectively confuse and break down our own high-risk attacking strategy.

Clearly we have waves of bad form knock five or six players to half their usual production for seemingly random games.

Right now we are neither 'the next big thing' or 'the perennial losers'.

But what drives me crazy, and I think a lot of others, is that in any given week we could look like one or the other.

Hawks, Magpies, Swans and Crows to come. There will be nowhere to hide for the next four weeks. I'm not going to mutter any more about our form until we've done that run of four games.

5-9 and looking at an 8 win season after that leg Id suggest

[Adam The God 30,249]

I reckon we'll win 1 maybe 2 of the next 4 games. If we win 2, I reckon we'll get to 12 wins for the season. Win 1 from 4 and we're looking at a 10 win season. An important month ahead.

[rjay 24,924]

MELBOURNE coach Paul Roos says he needs to accept responsibility for not picking enough experienced players in Saturday's 45-point loss to Port Adelaide in Alice Springs.

Despite Max Gawn dominating the ruck with 48 hit-outs, the Demons' midfield lost clearances by one against the Power's hard-nosed midfield.

"They're big bodies around the midfield. That probably showed when you're putting in smaller, younger midfielders against seasoned (players), the taps probably don't mean as much," Roos said post-match.

"I thought their craft was really good. Their size, strength and speed around stoppages was the difference in them being able to clear it."


With a six-day break from the win over the Brisbane Lions, Roos said the Demons didn't take the chance to bring in some more battle-hardened players.

"I've got to take responsibility, we said we were going to do that after last week and we didn't do it," Roos said.

"That's really poor by me and with a six-day break we had an opportunity to do that and we didn't take the opportunity. Certainly we've got to do a better job at picking the team on a weekly basis.

"It's something I mentioned last week and something we spoke about at match committee we didn't do, so we've got to take responsibility as much as the players.

"Next week we play Hawthorn, another experienced team, so we certainly need to have a look at that."

 

Yep Roosy...

We badly missed Dom Tyson (I know he played but wasn't fit to) on the weekend, anyone who doubts what Dom brings to the team have look at what Port did when we didn't have our effective front rower...

One of the big mistakes they made is bringing Tyson in underdone instead of Trengove.

I'm not sure Roos rates Trenners so I'm looking forward to seeing him (Trenners) do the Teddy Whitten...

The only other mid who would have made a difference is Oliver, a kid with a few games under the belt, we really missed his first touch and quick hands...injured.

 

 

[defuture15 899]

Just had to watch the vision. Same problems as against essenscum and st kilda. Poor decision making bad kicking. It falls apart pretty badly. We need the second ruck. Max was playing like an extra tall midfielder and getting the ball at ground level. Max can get forward and really needs Spencil to bash and crash ATM. Need a KPB. Tom Mc Donald is playing like a Jared Rivers. He was no where near Dixon when he needed to be. I would have played Dunn on him. Need another tall forward. Really missed Pedo. Could have freed up Gawn. Im actually hoping that the mindset against Hawthorn will be sharper and that some tactics are employed to restrict some of their players influence. I really struggle with this "team defence" BS. Is that code for Jetta plays tall, small, medium and everyone else watches???

[Dockett 32 1,239]

Hope a better message is sent to Grimes, Trenners ,Dunne and Dawes this week and an important one in terms of required weekly performance level also sent to Kent,Newton,ANB,OMac,Harmes.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

Seems to me we can't beat any side mediocre or better that comes to play.  Of our wins, GWS were rusty, wasteful and in unfamiliar territory, Pies and Tigers in a deep slump. GC in crisis and Brisbane undermanned and had to travel. We were  outclassed by three poor sides we should have beaten but they wanted to win more. We did play well defying the odds against North on the back of a tidal wave of shame.

Being used to expecting us kicking low scores has given the illusion that this seasons freewheeling scoring is an improvement but is offset by our pathetic defending which more often than not is the most incompetent I have ever seen by an AFL side. If we can't turn it around it will all be down hill from here on. The tough part of the season is now commencing and I question the players have the balls to take the challenge. More like shut up shop and save their continued  "development" for next season.

Edited May 29, 2016 by america de cali

[mrtwister 652]

We fumbled a lot again on the weekend, just like the Saints game. If we're not clean with contested possessions we get run over/pushed off the ball and it's 'wooshka', over our heads and into defensive 50.

Our cleanest player was missing and it showed. Many say one player doesn't make a difference but if they can grab a ball with one touch and dispose of it to a running outside player from a stoppage which results in a goal just 5 times a game, that's a big difference.

Especially when, if that doesn't happen, it goes the other way for a goal instead.

Our game plan seems to be based on clean possessions out of stoppages.

Oliver better be right to go this week.

Edited May 29, 2016 by mrtwister

[drdrake 3,163]

Any side that can hit the target by foot consistently will beat us.  We have to many holes in our zone, we seem to protect the flanks and wings and dare teams to take the kick through the corridor, if they hit that kick we are extremely exposed. Love to see the stat goals kicked against from with in 15m. We would be ranked Number , this is our biggest issue once a side gets through our zone that is set that high kicking the goal is very easy I would say 50% of goals against would be kicked from with in 15m from goal with 20-30% be kicked from the goal square. 

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

2 hours ago, america de cali said:

Seems to me we can't beat any side mediocre or better that comes to play.  Of our wins, GWS were rusty, wasteful and in unfamiliar territory, Pies and Tigers in a deep slump. GC in crisis and Brisbane undermanned and had to travel. We were  outclassed by three poor sides we should have beaten but they wanted to win more. We did play well defying the odds against North on the back of a tidal wave of shame.

Being used to expecting us kicking low scores has given the illusion that this seasons freewheeling scoring is an improvement but is offset by our pathetic defending which more often than not is the most incompetent I have ever seen by an AFL side. If we can't turn it around it will all be down hill from here on. The tough part of the season is now commencing and I question the players have the balls to take the challenge. More like shut up shop and save their continued  "development" for next season.

Agree with most of his.  As much as I hate to admit it, at this stage, the people from Princes Park have surpassed us, in terms of getting the most out of the list they have.  Bolton is a teacher, both as a profession and obviously in footy.  By saying this, I am not decrying Roos efforts with the list he took on at the beginning of his tenure, but what seems to still be missing, is the players total commitment to the cause.  With Casboult out and Kreuzer's fitness, at best, doubtful, I thought they were not a chance against a much more experienced and match hardened Cats outfit.

It was not all that long ago, we thought our backline was OK and what we needed to was to get depth in the middle and some key forwards.  Now our backs have seemingly gone backwards and unless our mids turn up with their collective brains in gear, we get beaten.

My view, going into this season, was that we were entitled to consider us at least on a par with St. Kilda, Brisbane, GCS, Port, Pies and Tigers and maybe as good as the Doggies. Certainly better than Essendon and Carlton - although clearly Carlton have surprised many so called experts so far.

I don't have the answers, but I would have hoped that by now the mindset of our list can at least cope with the ups and downs of professional footy,  as well as the pressure cooker environment of game day.  Clearly, other clubs, with not necessarily more talent than us, have managed to do so.  To me this is the most frustrating aspect of what our supporters are forced to endure.  Our hopes and expectations are built one week, only to come crashing down the following.  I know, I know, such is the lot of a Dees supporter, but frankly I am tired of this meek acceptance of what seems to be a reality on most Dees supporters' minds.  I'm not sure why, accepting the shorter turnaround and travel, but this week's loss somehow has left me flatter than any other this season.

 We are now rapidly approaching the half way mark of the season and we need to get this right, if we want to be seen as truly 'developing', by the footy world, with understandably higher expectations for 2017.  Right now, I don't think we can justify such an expectation. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by iv'a worn smith