SMITH NO1 BUT NORTHEY A BETTER COACH THAN CHECKER?

[picket fence 17,172]

For discussion, Norm Smith clearly the best Melbourne Coach and maybe the best coach of all time!

I know Checker Hughes statistically just on Premiershipos alone must have been a superb coach, but given what John Northey after us being so down and out for 25 odd years, is there any merit in thinking that he was a better coach than Checker Hughes??

Then of course we have a raft of coaches after that The Rev, Barrassi etc. Anyway just thought I would spark a bit of debate!

Edited March 12, 2016 by picket fence

[dee-luded 2,959]

55 minutes ago, picket fence said:

For discussion, Norm Smith clearly the best Melbourne Coach and maybe the best coach of all time!

I know Checker Hughes statistically just on Premiershipos alone must have been a superb coach, but given what John Northey after us being so down and out for 25 odd years, is there any merit in thinking that he was a better coach than Checker Hughes??

Then of course we have a raft of coaches after that The Rev, Barrassi etc. Anyway just thought I would spark a bit of debate!

wow, pickett... this is so off the mark in its concept.  Checker & Barassi came into the club to fix the culture & get back winning cultures.  Checker taught the club how to be fierce & to be winners & dominate.

Smithy adopted that ethos & cultured team from Checker,  then Smithy added his own ideas.

 

Barassi returned after 25 years of humiliation for supporters,  to spend all his time & effort totally rebuilding the club from the ground up.  From the recruiting & development under Rod McNabb, to the list,  with himself, Slug Jordan, Barry Richardson & others on the match committee a;ll working together to sort & rebuild the list.  And every player had to relearn the ways to win.

A mammoth task,  bigger than this current rebuild.

the club also had to be rebuilt off field,  but had been started prior to Barassi's return, under Dicky Seddon.

 

John Northey took over a club slightly less prepared,  than what Smithy took over from the Checker rebuild.

 

Neil Daniher took over a club that was used to playing finals regularly,  throughout the previous decade prior to '98.

 

So we have 2 types of clubs to take over, the easy-beat club,  & the win-hardened club.

 

which would you prefer to take over?

Edited March 12, 2016 by dee-luded

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

Mark Neeld

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

45 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Mark Neeld

Definately out on his own!!

[Guest]

Hard to say really.
Checker and Norm had great winning percentages but remember that football was an amateur game then. That being said, Norm was ahead of his time whatever way you look at it. He invented the ruck rover position and he and Len Smith basically were responsible for making footy more tactical.
Swoop was great about bringing a team together and making them walk over hot coals for the common cause. His tactics were a bit rudimentary but results wise,  he was more than decent. I am maybe being a bit harsh on him on the tactical side as he is still coaching in Ballarat (he coached the Ballarat Swans to the 2008 premiership and I believe is still coaching Learmonth in the Central Highlands League). I just remember at the end of his tenure in Brisbane that his time had come to an end in that coaches needed more than the fire and brimstone approach to get teams over the line but that being said, I have a lot of love for Swoop. 
In my time following the club, Neale just shades Swoop as the best coach I have seen to coach the Demons. The reason being was that he put up with more BS in his time than he deserved and more than Swoop had to put up with. When he got a clear shot at it, he was more than competent. When he had shenanigans going on in the background at board or administrative level, he wasn't able to get the best out of the team he had. Whatever way you look at it, he was great at keeping the place from falling apart completely and a lot of the crap that was thrown at him by some in the early part of CS's reign of terror was completely unjustified.
 

[jumbo returns 6,741]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Mark Neeld

Move on, dude.

[Earl Hood 6,086]

58 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Hard to say really.
Checker and Norm had great winning percentages but remember that football was an amateur game then. That being said, Norm was ahead of his time whatever way you look at it. He invented the ruck rover position and he and Len Smith basically were responsible for making footy more tactical.
Swoop was great about bringing a team together and making them walk over hot coals for the common cause. His tactics were a bit rudimentary but results wise,  he was more than decent. I am maybe being a bit harsh on him on the tactical side as he is still coaching in Ballarat (he coached the Ballarat Swans to the 2008 premiership and I believe is still coaching Learmonth in the Central Highlands League). I just remember at the end of his tenure in Brisbane that his time had come to an end in that coaches needed more than the fire and brimstone approach to get teams over the line but that being said, I have a lot of love for Swoop. 
In my time following the club, Neale just shades Swoop as the best coach I have seen to coach the Demons. The reason being was that he put up with more BS in his time than he deserved and more than Swoop had to put up with. When he got a clear shot at it, he was more than competent. When he had shenanigans going on in the background at board or administrative level, he wasn't able to get the best out of the team he had. Whatever way you look at it, he was great at keeping the place from falling apart completely and a lot of the crap that was thrown at him by some in the early part of CS's reign of terror was completely unjustified.
 

If not for some untimely injuries to the Ox, Jako, Sean Charles, Gary Lyon, Steven Tingay, Glen Lovett and add Martin Pike's drinking problems we might be talking about Neil Balme as well! 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

If not for some untimely injuries to the Ox, Jako, Sean Charles, Gary Lyon, Steven Tingay, Glen Lovett and add Martin Pike's drinking problems we might be talking about Neil Balme as well! 

Balmey was a decent bloke and I think he has found his true niche as a football manager where he is among the best in the business.
I reckon however as a coach, he let the players get away with too much. I have heard him say that it's been a long time since he has seen fire and brimstone work and that is true. However, Ross Lyon doesn't suffer fools (hello Colin Sylvia) and he is no fire and brimstone man.
 He also started to oversee the culture that would later become known as 'Hollywood Boulevard' (though that may have started under Swoop as well). 

[Moonshadow 17,676]

Come on down Mr Goodwin!

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

2 hours ago, jumbo returns said:

Move on, dude.

Lighten up princess

[dee-luded 2,959]

1 hour ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

Balmey was a decent bloke and I think he has found his true niche as a football manager where he is among the best in the business.
I reckon however as a coach, he let the players get away with too much. I have heard him say that it's been a long time since he has seen fire and brimstone work and that is true. However, Ross Lyon doesn't suffer fools (hello Colin Sylvia) and he is no fire and brimstone man.
 He also started to oversee the culture that would later become known as 'Hollywood Boulevard' (though that may have started under Swoop as well). 

one thing is for sure,   'Hollywood Boulevard'  would not get any oxygen under Barassi/Jordan.  IN FACT, they removed that type of arrogance, when they came onboard. (mostly)  the spores were still in the place.

And for sure,  it regrew,  in absence of tough rigorous coaches & disciplines...  right to the point where it became more obvious,  as the talent waned.    chase,  tackle,  keep your feet,  head over the ball,  go when your turn,  etc, etc, etc, 

more than one coach let the club down whilst keeping up appearances.

 

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

Didn't have the on field success, but in terms of importance i'd say Paul Roos will be looked apon as being right up there.

[Biffen 12,943]

Old Dee played under Checker so we will ask him.

[DeeVoted 583]

'Checker' Hughes gets the nod from me. By the length of Flemington straight.

I admired Northey, he was great for this club. He followed Barassi, after Barassi got the joint back in order, and in typical Barassi style, he demanded standards were met or you were out the door. If anyone thought Ronald Dale was tough. Coaching the MFC reserves was a little bloke by the name of Ray "slug" Jordan. 

Whom I had the great pleasure, of standing about 6 feet away, when 'slug' ripped into a player, and used just about every expletive in the book to get his point across. For a little bloke, he would have been heard 2 blocks away. 
This was just a practice game, at a local football ground (Might add, women and children close by)
Between the 2 them, there wouldn't be any compromises.Slug was probably only 2nd to Denis Pagan for success in coaching reserve teams.

Enter Northey. (After the ground rules had been set)

Coached from 1985 to 1998

 Coached 4 teams :  Sydney, Melbourne, Richmond and Brisbane Bears

Coached MFC from 1986 until 1992   Won 90 Lost 76  Played in 1 Grand Final - Lost.
I am still of the belief we should have won at least 1 or perhaps 2 flags in that time. 

Frank "Checker' Hughes

Coached from 1927 to 1948    *1965 doesnt count as he stood in as temp for 1 game for some bloke that got the sack*

 Coached 2 teams : Richmond 1927 to 1932    5 Grand Finals won 1 flag
                               Melbourne 1933 to 1948    6 Grand Finals (including a drawn GF) won 4
Total Games = won 244  lost 129

Now between 1939 to 1945 (2nd WW) the MFC lost a handful of the their star players, some never to return to wear a Red and Blue jumper.
One can only guess how many more Grand Final wins could have been added if not for the fact the war disrupted our run of success. Then he had to rebuild a team, Lost the 1946 GF and won another in 1948.

I'll throw in, just for good measure, he was coaching against the Great "Jock" McHale (Collingwood) 
You can add in the influence he had on a young Norm Smith.As well as the insight to giving us our Nickname of the Demons.

"Checker" gets my vote.Someone will need to come up with a bloody good argruement to convince me otherwise.

Edited March 13, 2016 by DeeVoted

[Tony Tea 2,809]

The best thing about Northey was that he understood footy is a contact sport involving blokes knocking over blokes. Something absent in our coaching ranks until Roos came along.

[Bossdog 2,002]

I think it is very hard to judge coaches from different era's

Checker coached when the game was a kick and mark game, in a time where place kicks, drop kicks' stab passes and torps were all the go.    It was a game that part time footballers player on the weekend for a bit of fun and most players had full time jobs.   It was a time when if you coped a knock and had concussion you just got up and kept playing.   The game was stop/start and kick it to the pack.    He was the only coach and had no assistants.

Compare it to todays micro managed professional footballers of today where speed and skill are mandatory,  The whole week is devoted to football, medical tests are just about a daily occurrence, skin folds are measured, players are rested if work loads indicate and there are coaches for every line, there are kicking coaches, ruck coaches, movement coaches.   The head coach needs to manage all this stuff and keep it all together and then face the every hungry media twice a week.

I have captain/coached my own sides with some success and you need to be sometimes tough, sometimes a best friend, sometimes a plick, some times a father figure.

The only thing you are judged on is WINS.        

[Elusive Tunbridge 795]

5 minutes ago, Bossdog said:

I think it is very hard to judge coaches from different era's

Checker coached when the game was a kick and mark game, in a time where place kicks, drop kicks' stab passes and torps were all the go.    It was a game that part time footballers player on the weekend for a bit of fun and most players had full time jobs.   It was a time when if you coped a knock and had concussion you just got up and kept playing.   The game was stop/start and kick it to the pack.    He was the only coach and had no assistants.

Compare it to todays micro managed professional footballers of today where speed and skill are mandatory,  The whole week is devoted to football, medical tests are just about a daily occurrence, skin folds are measured, players are rested if work loads indicate and there are coaches for every line, there are kicking coaches, ruck coaches, movement coaches.   The head coach needs to manage all this stuff and keep it all together and then face the every hungry media twice a week.

I have captain/coached my own sides with some success and you need to be sometimes tough, sometimes a best friend, sometimes a plick, some times a father figure.

The only thing you are judged on is WINS.        

Not so hard to judge, then.  Checker, easily.

[dee-luded 2,959]

49 minutes ago, Bossdog said:

I think it is very hard to judge coaches from different era's

Checker coached when the game was a kick and mark game, in a time where place kicks, drop kicks' stab passes and torps were all the go.    It was a game that part time footballers player on the weekend for a bit of fun and most players had full time jobs.   It was a time when if you coped a knock and had concussion you just got up and kept playing.   The game was stop/start and kick it to the pack.    He was the only coach and had no assistants.

Compare it to todays micro managed professional footballers of today where speed and skill are mandatory,  The whole week is devoted to football, medical tests are just about a daily occurrence, skin folds are measured, players are rested if work loads indicate and there are coaches for every line, there are kicking coaches, ruck coaches, movement coaches.   The head coach needs to manage all this stuff and keep it all together and then face the every hungry media twice a week.

I have captain/coached my own sides with some success and you need to be sometimes tough, sometimes a best friend, sometimes a plick, some times a father figure.

The only thing you are judged on is WINS.        

 

I think its easier to see the outcomes from a coaches influence,  during their time with the output & conviction of his current list players (how they go about it)....  & then following that coaches reign,  what he left behind him,   regarding the culture,  & the young talent he left behind on the list he oversaw.

 

The only thing is not wins,  & should not be so.   for any thinking supporters.... 

The longer term view of a clubs on-field health  (culture/list)  is the barometer of its long term viability & so success.

 

This club has in the past decades been booted about off field,  & so onfield as well,  by seriously poor management,  & a culture of being too polite to push its own agenda aggressively...   & the in-house part of our club has also allowed the outer support base to dwindle to a point of being inconsequential within the competition.

'Left' out in the cold.

.

Edited March 13, 2016 by dee-luded

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Northey had many great attributes. He gave us back our self respect for a start. Not to mention the "red hot go". An era where we won more than we lost. He is rightly remembered fondly.

But I can't forget the many games where we won 10 goals to 9. Or 9 goals to 8. Really ugly football, watchable only because we won. I recall one game where we kicked 6 in the first quarter and it was so unusual, so out there, it brought home that we were a low scoring side playing the opposite of "champagne footy". We went on to kick another 3 or 4 for the match.

Also when we made the finals, we always did it by falling in to 5th place, late in the season if not the final match. Regrettable especially when we had chances to sew up a higher slot and give ourselves an easier run at the flag. As it was we always did it the hardest possible way and of course never got the choccies.

[dee-luded 2,959]

42 minutes ago, Ted Fidge said:

Northey had many great attributes. He gave us back our self respect for a start. Not to mention the "red hot go". An era where we won more than we lost. He is rightly remembered fondly.

But I can't forget the many games where we won 10 goals to 9. Or 9 goals to 8. Really ugly football, watchable only because we won. I recall one game where we kicked 6 in the first quarter and it was so unusual, so out there, it brought home that we were a low scoring side playing the opposite of "champagne footy". We went on to kick another 3 or 4 for the match.

Also when we made the finals, we always did it by falling in to 5th place, late in the season if not the final match.      Regrettable especially when we had chances to sew up a higher slot and give ourselves an easier run at the flag.     As it was we always did it the hardest possible way and of course never got the choccies.

 

Yes,  your right TF,  I remember now you've mentioned that angle... we always seemed to slack off mid season some time & then have to push to get there.  Instead of winning early season games & then consolidating our position.

This made it near impossible to get to grand finals, or we were spent, once there.

We did things the hard way by not playing well mid season.

[You're Gawn 26]

Checker without a doubt.

Built the club from the ground up and gave us an identity while Norm sat back and merely maintained what had already been created for him.

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

Best coach ever ... well whoever can deliver this club its 13th flag and break the longest drought in it's 150  year history.  No disrespect to any of the others (particularly neeld) but the person who takes us to the top of the mountain in the modern  professional afl game  (and makes us relevant again) will be the Messiah and a living legend 

I hope it's Goodwin...

[monoccular 17,431]

^^

It would be even more remarkable and overwhelmingly exciting were it Roos !!

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

Hopefully my life insurance would cover me for the heart attack I'd likely have if we won this year!!!!!!!