Damaged goods...

[Biffen 12,947]

Uncle Bitters is looking forward to seeing some damaged goods in Black and White on Monday.

Despite the rise in domestic violence after a Collingwood loss,so am I.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,250]

Uncle Bitters is looking forward to seeing some damaged goods in Black and White on Monday.

Despite the rise in domestic violence after a Collingwood loss,so am I.

You raise an interesting point in a changing world Biff. You refer to the old joke - 50's 60's where a Collingwood loss meant XXXXX number of wives bashed.

Well Im not advocating bashing but as I alluded to on another thread - this women's rights stuff is out of control.

Perhaps a jolly good flogging!

[dee-luded 2,959]

I think the worst damaged goods at the MFC are the members and supporters.

I for one will never recover from the last eight years.

I am confident I am not alone probably another 30 000 like me.

The players get paid hundreds of thousand of dollars each year and then get to walk away.

I pay to the watch there efforts and cannot leave.

Boo hoo for the poor players.

I'm damaged but not from the past 8 years but from the 40 before it... so the last 8 years has been very painful, but I could understand what was happening, & why, but my protests of losing Jnr, & other hard workers & we kept the more skilled but softer ones.

I built up a tolerance over the 40 Yrs of pain & sorrow, which stated for me when Barass left us, & then Smithy was sacked, I think I was about 8yrs in a Carlton household.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Uncle Bitters is looking forward to seeing some damaged goods in Black and White on Monday.

Despite the rise in domestic violence after a Collingwood loss,so am I.

I'll never forget big Carl's last game with jimmy Durnan as well, running amok, magpie feathers everywhere cover the MCG grass.

[Adam The God 30,520]

You raise an interesting point in a changing world Biff. You refer to the old joke - 50's 60's where a Collingwood loss meant XXXXX number of wives bashed.

Well Im not advocating bashing but as I alluded to on another thread - this women's rights stuff is out of control.

Perhaps a jolly good flogging!

I know you're joking, but not cool.

[Timothy Reddan-A'Blew 5,409]

Grazman's post at 10 this morning - considered and expansive and quite probably on the mark. However, as an aid to helping us grasp it completely as an explanation of what is happening, can anyone set out in similar clarity and detail some actual passages of play during the two problem phases of last week's game - first the surrender of the 1st quarter dominance then the opposition's run away after half time - that support and demonstrate what Grazman has set out?

[grazman 7,465]

One of the problems in any decision making process is the bias (recognised or unconscious) that people bring to the table. Because these things are open to interpretation, what one person may provide as evidence another will dismiss as irrelevant or ambiguous - particularly if it doesn't fit with their concept of what's happening. As a starting point I took it on faith that what Roos is saying is what is happening, some think he's simply making excuses to cover for his own poor performances. I disagree. Firstly he wouldn't have taken on the job if he was worried about win loss ratios because we were very, very bad when he came (i.e. he doesn't need to resort to excuses, just identify the problem). Secondly he's only here to put the train back on the tracks, it will be Goodwin's job to get it moving and finally because I think the principle of occams razor applies here. There's no conspiracy - what isn't fitting is the expectation that many supporters have of how the script should be playing out. Simply because you identify a problem doesn't mean it can be fixed immediately, it can be a slow complex process.

As for a demonstration of the good versus the poor, I think someone who attends games could probably provide a better oversight because it's hard to pick up structures on T.V. (I live in Canberra - so only see about 1 match a season live), but let me provide a couple of examples. When Watts marks the ball you can see him scanning to see if players are replicating the training structures, the fact that he's has to motion with his hands for someone to lead into space is often an indicator that they're not. For whatever faults Jack may have he's a clever footballer and you can see at various stages players aren't doing what they're supposed to. Why? Have the players stopped working or are they too frightened to get separation on their opponent waiting for the inevitable turnover, are they simply scared and waiting for someone else to make a mistake rather than themselves? I suspect it's probably a combination of those things, but rarely do you see good teams when they have the ball have to wait and wait for options to present themselves.

I was unfortunate enough to be at the GWS game and we were lucky in that GWS were poor in the first quarter which helped us. They turned this around in the second quarter, but we were able to at least stick to some of our structures and put on scoreboard pressure, where we lost it completely in the third was because we simply couldn't win the ball- Jones (unsighted& probably injured) Viney (injured) Tyson(poor game) and Vince (underdone) didn't get their hands on it and when they did you could visibly see that players had gone into their shells, they were unwilling to run into space to create options. When the opposition had the ball they did what they regularly did before Roos arrived, trailed 2 meters behind their direct opponent and seemed surprised when their opponent got the ball. They failed to close down space (though keep in mind GWS kicked some really arsey goals which I think mentally reinforced amongst our players that we couldn't beat them). Teams like Hawthorn (Port game) and Freo (Richmond) might have the opposition jump them, but they stick to their structures and work their way back into the game because they know they work (they also have the skill set to back it up). It's a bit of a catch 22 because I still think we lack some core skill sets to ensure that we can build confidence in the structures, but we are much better placed in this regard than we were 18 months ago.

Edited June 6, 2015 by grazman

[McQueen 17,867]

Enjoying your contributions, grazman.

[old dee 23,881]

Good work grazman I though this line said it all for me

"It's a bit of a catch 22 because I still think we lack some core skill sets to ensure that we can build confidence in the structures"

IMO nothing will compensate for serious skill shortages when playing the better sides.

[titan_uranus 25,047]

As for a demonstration of the good versus the poor, I think someone who attends games could probably provide a better oversight because it's hard to pick up structures on T.V. (I live in Canberra - so only see about 1 match a season live), but let me provide a couple of examples. When Watts marks the ball you can see him scanning to see if players are replicating the training structures, the fact that he's has to motion with his hands for someone to lead into space is often an indicator that they're not. For whatever faults Jack may have he's a clever footballer and you can see at various stages players aren't doing what they're supposed to. Why? Have the players stopped working or are they too frightened to get separation on their opponent waiting for the inevitable turnover, are they simply scared and waiting for someone else to make a mistake rather than themselves? I suspect it's probably a combination of those things, but rarely do you see good teams when they have the ball have to wait and wait for options to present themselves.

Great post.

This is a good observation. Not from a Watts perspective, just in general. It's still far too frequent the number of times we will take a mark/free kick on half-back/wing and the player with the ball will take an eternity to get rid of it, because there is nothing presenting up the ground. That's when you get the player with the ball asking the forwards to come at him (because they're not leading into the space or they're too deep) or you get the backwards/sideways kick.

I think you've identified the main issues - I think fear of separating from opponents is a big one (they don't want to be the one whose opponent kicks a goal on the turnover they see as inevitable). I think fitness is also an issue (the step up from training/VFL intensity to AFL intensity is huge and I get the feeling the players around the edges of the 22 just aren't prepared for how hard you have to continually work in the seniors to continually make space). I also think we struggle against certain defensive opponents - when our opponent stops us from playing exactly how we want to (and do, at training), we don't adapt well. We panic, we don't think our way through, and we lose confidence.

Edited June 6, 2015 by titan_uranus

[robbiefrom13 894]

Good work grazman I though this line said it all for me

"It's a bit of a catch 22 because I still think we lack some core skill sets to ensure that we can build confidence in the structures"

IMO nothing will compensate for serious skill shortages when playing the better sides.

If I remember it right, it was generally thought at the time that our 1964 side was fairly ordinary for talent.

[grazman 7,465]

If I remember it right, it was generally thought at the time that our 1964 side was fairly ordinary for talent.

Well they won a premiership, so they might have suffered in comparison to previous Melbourne sides, but they probably were a bit better than 'fairly ordinary' and benefited from a decade or more of very clear structures and expectations. In 2015 on the other hand...

[old dee 23,881]

Well they won a premiership, so they might have suffered in comparison to previous Melbourne sides, but they probably were a bit better than 'fairly ordinary' and benefited from a decade or more of very clear structures and expectations. In 2015 on the other hand...

I could handle a bit of that "ordinary" now.

This weekend 51 years ago we beat the Pies.

Then belted them in the 2nd Semi

And for the final Coup came form behind in the dying seconds to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.

Having witnessed all three games It does not get better than that.

Ordinary I will take it.

[P-man 13,366]

For whatever faults Jack may have he's a clever footballer and you can see at various stages players aren't doing what they're supposed to. Why? Have the players stopped working or are they too frightened to get separation on their opponent waiting for the inevitable turnover, are they simply scared and waiting for someone else to make a mistake rather than themselves? I suspect it's probably a combination of those things, but rarely do you see good teams when they have the ball have to wait and wait for options to present themselves.

This is certainly the most frustrating part of watching Melbourne play. More frustrating than watching teams canter through the middle of the ground, it is the stagnant, uncertain way we move the football.

Of those three reasons you've given, the third is something you'd expect at junior levels of sports. Anyone scared to make a mistake does not belong at the professional level.

I think one of the reasons Grimes being dropped has annoyed so many on here is that, on top of his decent form of late, he takes the game on. He continues to back himself and his ability, so while he may frustrate at times, supporters see this in him. You will take that every time over a player who is afraid to do the same and at least give themselves and their teammates a chance.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

I think the worst damaged goods at the MFC are the members and supporters.

I for one will never recover from the last eight years.

I am confident I am not alone probably another 30 000 like me.

The players get paid hundreds of thousand of dollars each year and then get to walk away.

I pay to the watch there efforts and cannot leave.

Boo hoo for the poor players.

i have said this many times before also. If most players (cause it's wrong of me to say all, because some do) cared as much as us fans we would win more games. A lot more games.

[daisycutter 29,783]

This is certainly the most frustrating part of watching Melbourne play. More frustrating than watching teams canter through the middle of the ground, it is the stagnant, uncertain way we move the football.

Of those three reasons you've given, the third is something you'd expect at junior levels of sports. Anyone scared to make a mistake does not belong at the professional level.

I think one of the reasons Grimes being dropped has annoyed so many on here is that, on top of his decent form of late, he takes the game on. He continues to back himself and his ability, so while he may frustrate at times, supporters see this in him. You will take that every time over a player who is afraid to do the same and at least give themselves and their teammates a chance.

tend to agree about grimes

i still wonder if he might be injured a'la "general soreness", but why not say so

however it seems they want howie returned to the backline and they think grimes can only play hbf so he has to go. if so howie is very lucky given his recent form

[P-man 13,366]

tend to agree about grimes

i still wonder if he might be injured a'la "general soreness", but why not say so

however it seems they want howie returned to the backline and they think grimes can only play hbf so he has to go. if so howie is very lucky given his recent form

Extremely lucky. Howe's effort last week left a lot to be desired. He was however pretty good the week before, in fact Roos himself said it was his best game of the season, which makes the return to the backline a bit of a head scratcher. I'll believe it when they actually walk to their positions on the ground. Team sheets can be deceiving at the best of times.

[old dee 23,881]

Extremely lucky. Howe's effort last week left a lot to be desired. He was however pretty good the week before, in fact Roos himself said it was his best game of the season, which makes the return to the backline a bit of a head scratcher. I'll believe it when they actually walk to their positions on the ground. Team sheets can be deceiving at the best of times.

I never believe them P-man the only thing you can believe is that aproox. 22 of the 24 will play on Monday.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Damaged goods??? Some of these GWS kids experienced 100 point loss after 100 point loss over a 3-4 year period. They certainly seem to have bounced back okay.

We can make all the excuses we like. At the end of the day, the overall list and some of the players on it are just not good enough at this stage.

The difference is that being a newly founded club they had an excuse to hide behind. Our players did not - after all most posters here bristle if an excuse for anything is offered.

Roos needs to stop with this negative [censored] about continually blaming the past. Focus on the future.

I think it is more about players learning and there willingness to do what is required all the time not only when they choose to. This is the issue, it's habits rather than mental scars. Our players through the Bailey era ran the show, they then revolted against Mark Neeld when he took the long stick approach and it looks that some still want to play on their terms.

That would be examples like Dunn trying to hit a torp to no one, the dramatic drop in pressure acts from a number of players, nothing to do with the past everything to do with the players willingness to do what is required.

Damaged goods is a nice way of Roosy saying that no soft [censored] will be allowed at the MFC any longer.

Goodwin will be driving that hard behind the scenes.

I'll never forget big Carl's last game with jimmy Durnan as well, running amok, magpie feathers everywhere cover the MCG grass.

Certainly took no prisoners that day. If only the club as a whole showed some of his fight and thuggery over the following decades. We might have won a few more matches and crunch finals.

There were individuals like Balls, Keogh, Yeater, Jakovich and a few others but as a whole we just haven't flown the flag enough.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Rusty Nails

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,298]

"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there". (L.P. Hartley, The Go Between)

[junk 342]

Good article dee-luded and co. , Roos needs to tell the so called "underachievers" what they need to do to rectify their inconsistencies,lack of skill,lack of speed etc ,also these players need to have input …….. lets call it a plan. Otherwise we will end up with more apathy.