Post Match Discussion - Round 9

[leucopogon 1,517]

Is there anything stopping us from creating a human pyramid in our last line of defence? We could pay Howe $600k to line up from the goal square and take species at the apex of the pyramid.

I'd also like to see a set play where our players army roll at a fwd50 stoppage. Take them by surprise.

I'd be happy with the occasional sausage roll from a Fwd 50 stoppage.

[Frosty Demon 153]

Has there ever been a team that has so consistently found new and creative ways to gut its supporters?

Well said Bitter, particularly gutted after today. At one point the commentator mentioned how hard it must be for I think it was Garland. I was like are you f-ing kidding Ive been following this team for 50 years.

[Frosty Demon 153]

Can't wait for 2017.

What happens then?

[leucopogon 1,517]

Can anyone on here please offer up a plausible explanation as to what actually happened out there today?

Our first quarter was effing brilliant, the pressure and willingness for the contest was plain for all to see. vandenBerg and Jones were unbelievable and the thing that impressed me the most was the way we set up to hold it inside F50. Every time Port got a possession they were just bombing it straight into our wall of players at the half forward line and back in we went. Lamumba's goal was a play of sublime beauty, pressure rewarded well and truly.

Second quarter we start out very similar to the first and my son remarks to me, I don't feel nervous any more about this game Dad. I shake my head and say "you don't know this team as well as I do son, we could be 10 goals up and I'd still be nervous". Then we just collapsed, but why??

Yes there were some 50/50 umpiring decisions that went Port's way for some goal opportunities, and that led to a momentum shift, but to me it seriously looked like we had blown all our petrol tickets in the first quarter and a half. I was noticing players looking very flushed, like showing early heat exhaustion signs and I was thinking to myself, hope we haven't gone out too hard here.

But surely that's not what happened. These guys are professional athletes with a host of fitness staff and medicos employed to ensure that we can go the distance in games. The centre clearance turnaround was so dramatic after quarter time, so what the hell happened in there? Where did that attack on the ball and intense pressure that was so effective in the first quarter go?

I'm honestly at a complete loss trying to explain why this occurred. I've copped a bit of flak on this forum for calling Roos' coaching into question in the past, but seriously, why isn't this bloke getting absolutely grilled by the media to explain why the team is so inconsitent in effort and performance from week to week, or even minute to minute in games. I'm just absolutely struggling to see how we've improved in this area. Last week's performance was very good, we played a tought tackling stoppage fest and wore down the Dogs in the end. It looked like we were going to do the same today but why couldn't we continue that style beyond the halfway point of the second 1/4? Is it all mental? It's like our players have some mental switch that gets flicked off as soon as they have their opponent on the back foot, but once it gets switched off they can't find it again to switch it back on. We've seen it today, against GWS and in the NAB challenge against the Dogs. Probably other examples out there too, but that's a real worrying trend.

So what happened today, did Roos get outcoached? did the players give up? were they spent before half time? why is it so?

[rjay 24,596]

The club still falls over the moment pressure is applied. It is incredible really. So predictable. But i was shocked today

The transformation was ridiculous. Senior players are not up to it

Simple as that.

I've seen this or it's like posted by a few people here...

It's not true, we stood up last week and in the game against GC at the start of the year when they came back at us.

The difference is we are not good enough to hold the top sides. We don't have enough talent on the park plain & simple.

We can't afford injuries to our better players because we don't have many of them.

[chookrat 4,205]

Can anyone on here please offer up a plausible explanation as to what actually happened out there today?

Our first quarter was effing brilliant, the pressure and willingness for the contest was plain for all to see. vandenBerg and Jones were unbelievable and the thing that impressed me the most was the way we set up to hold it inside F50. Every time Port got a possession they were just bombing it straight into our wall of players at the half forward line and back in we went. Lamumba's goal was a play of sublime beauty, pressure rewarded well and truly.

Second quarter we start out very similar to the first and my son remarks to me, I don't feel nervous any more about this game Dad. I shake my head and say "you don't know this team as well as I do son, we could be 10 goals up and I'd still be nervous". Then we just collapsed, but why??

Yes there were some 50/50 umpiring decisions that went Port's way for some goal opportunities, and that led to a momentum shift, but to me it seriously looked like we had blown all our petrol tickets in the first quarter and a half. I was noticing players looking very flushed, like showing early heat exhaustion signs and I was thinking to myself, hope we haven't gone out too hard here.

But surely that's not what happened. These guys are professional athletes with a host of fitness staff and medicos employed to ensure that we can go the distance in games. The centre clearance turnaround was so dramatic after quarter time, so what the hell happened in there? Where did that attack on the ball and intense pressure that was so effective in the first quarter go?

I'm honestly at a complete loss trying to explain why this occurred. I've copped a bit of flak on this forum for calling Roos' coaching into question in the past, but seriously, why isn't this bloke getting absolutely grilled by the media to explain why the team is so inconsitent in effort and performance from week to week, or even minute to minute in games. I'm just absolutely struggling to see how we've improved in this area. Last week's performance was very good, we played a tought tackling stoppage fest and wore down the Dogs in the end. It looked like we were going to do the same today but why couldn't we continue that style beyond the halfway point of the second 1/4? Is it all mental? It's like our players have some mental switch that gets flicked off as soon as they have their opponent on the back foot, but once it gets switched off they can't find it again to switch it back on. We've seen it today, against GWS and in the NAB challenge against the Dogs. Probably other examples out there too, but that's a real worrying trend.

So what happened today, did Roos get outcoached? did the players give up? were they spent before half time? why is it so?

Being terrible for the past 8 years is what is happening out there. As Roos keeps saying the players go into survival mode and stop working as a unit when the pressure is on. The new players are generally our best in these games as they haven't been Melbourne'd yet. The only way to overcome this condition, fragile belief and confidence, is over coming adversity and winning games. Army rolls will help us clear the ball in congestion

[leucopogon 1,517]

The baggage of those 8 years of being terrible are there at the opening bounce as well Chook but we crack in, and seem to do so regularly. We'd have to be one of the fastest starting teams in the AFL. If you looked at our score worm graph and hadn't seen the games, you'd think teams were letting us get off to a 2-3 goal head start. Why can't we sustain the pressure acts and the efficiency for more than half a quarter? Why can't our coaches instill a mindset that if we have given away four goals in a row to the opposition that we just dig in and go back to that same style that gave us the 3 goal to nil start?

Like many here, I believe it has to be the cattle, but its also the coaching staff, not being able to instill the belief into the group that they can arrest a massive momentum shift in games.

Howe, Watts, Dunn, Garland (although he's been better the last few weeks), Grimes, Bail look like they all need to be moved on to me. We may as well go into another mini-rebuild, because these blokes can't cut it at the level that's required for 120 minutes every week of the season.

I'm fed up to here with it, I can tell ya.

[drdrake 3,119]

Can anyone on here please offer up a plausible explanation as to what actually happened out there today?

Our first quarter was effing brilliant, the pressure and willingness for the contest was plain for all to see. vandenBerg and Jones were unbelievable and the thing that impressed me the most was the way we set up to hold it inside F50. Every time Port got a possession they were just bombing it straight into our wall of players at the half forward line and back in we went. Lamumba's goal was a play of sublime beauty, pressure rewarded well and truly.

Second quarter we start out very similar to the first and my son remarks to me, I don't feel nervous any more about this game Dad. I shake my head and say "you don't know this team as well as I do son, we could be 10 goals up and I'd still be nervous". Then we just collapsed, but why??

Yes there were some 50/50 umpiring decisions that went Port's way for some goal opportunities, and that led to a momentum shift, but to me it seriously looked like we had blown all our petrol tickets in the first quarter and a half. I was noticing players looking very flushed, like showing early heat exhaustion signs and I was thinking to myself, hope we haven't gone out too hard here.

But surely that's not what happened. These guys are professional athletes with a host of fitness staff and medicos employed to ensure that we can go the distance in games. The centre clearance turnaround was so dramatic after quarter time, so what the hell happened in there? Where did that attack on the ball and intense pressure that was so effective in the first quarter go?

I'm honestly at a complete loss trying to explain why this occurred. I've copped a bit of flak on this forum for calling Roos' coaching into question in the past, but seriously, why isn't this bloke getting absolutely grilled by the media to explain why the team is so inconsitent in effort and performance from week to week, or even minute to minute in games. I'm just absolutely struggling to see how we've improved in this area. Last week's performance was very good, we played a tought tackling stoppage fest and wore down the Dogs in the end. It looked like we were going to do the same today but why couldn't we continue that style beyond the halfway point of the second 1/4? Is it all mental? It's like our players have some mental switch that gets flicked off as soon as they have their opponent on the back foot, but once it gets switched off they can't find it again to switch it back on. We've seen it today, against GWS and in the NAB challenge against the Dogs. Probably other examples out there too, but that's a real worrying trend.

So what happened today, did Roos get outcoached? did the players give up? were they spent before half time? why is it so?

I can offer up why, like the past 8 years when it gets hard people go missing, this includes current captain. Our players get ahead of where the club is at. I can't believe that players won't man up and make their opponent earn their kicks. We protect space rather than being accountable, it is an easy out. Unfortunately we are 5 years a way until we have a complete clean out of players since 2008 we won't move forward.

[Adam The God 29,359]

Wow. What a depressing turn around.

Wines killed us again

Watts is done as are a few others IF we are ever to climb the ladder again...

Boak killed us again.

Hit the road Jeremy Howe

You are a one trick pony with no heart

Yep. Trade him, please. I think it's best for both parties too. I still can't believe the rest of the comp haven't woken up to how one dimensional he is as a player.

Taking the emotion, disappointment and ugly idiotic player hate out of it, that was a fascinating example of confidence as a defining team quality. It was a game of two Port's. The Port of the last 3 weeks, which we were beating, and would have beaten if they had kept on like that. The Port of last year and that outrageous first quarter against Hawthorn earlier this year then arrived. It was literally like the self belief switch was turned on. After that point, they were always going to expose the difference in standard like Hawthorn did two weeks ago. It was horrifying in its predictability.

So it wasn't just about us, it was much more about them. We know where we are, and it was never going to come near a Port at their best.

To those of you who use your anger and frustration to make personal attacks on ANY of our players, just for a moment imagine you were them reading your comments. Particularly because you have NO insight into them as people.

People are frustrated with them as players, not as people. Very different. To be frank, our supporter base deserves more.

The kick in was the turning point, we had all the momentum and he gave it up with that stupid barrel attempt.

For absolutely no reason. And he kicked it to Bail. WTF.

Our problem is our "engine room", not our receivers and flankers.

If we're not winning the ball in midfield, it effectively puts all these guys out of the game.

And in ANY team (yes, even Hawthorn) if your midfield's getting smashed as badly as ours was, your flankers are not capable of making up for it.

Unfortunately our midfield doesn't just get beaten; it gets smashed. That's where it all begins and ends. And there's something seriously wrong there that we haven't got to the bottom of yet.

We haven't got a true A grader yet. That's the problem. Port have Boak and you could argue Gray. Ebert wouldn't be far off either. Jones is B grade, Vince is B grade and the other blokes are too young.

Edited May 30, 2015 by AdamFarr

[Biffen 12,823]

We were coming off a five day break.

Or something.

[Adam The God 29,359]

I don't think I've done anything but defend Watts forever, but today was my straw that broke the camels back. It is fine to say he cops it, and he did some quite nice things, but he had a real stinker overall. A real shame.

Bail gone next week. If we could, Dunn would go too. He had about the worst game I've seen him play, and the fact he led the team in touches means nothing. That idiotic torp was the three seconds where the game shifted, and it was over.

We should have learnt the Frawley lesson, and should stick Howe at Casey for the rest of the year. He's gone for absolute sure.

Toumpas was good and ran hard again - he will be persisted with and is finding his feet.

Garland was wonderful down back.

Spencer started well but faded. However, he laid a couple of really brilliant tackles and was rewarded. Jamar is done, and I think Gawn has been put back quite a bit. Can't believe I'm saying that.

Jones just has to play through a tag. Or he needs support. The fact that Brayshaw was the only one that stood up, and that we got virtually nothing from Vince and the like, says a lot.

McDonald was servicable and had a few really effective spoils. What I loved was seeing him running through CHB and hitting up leading targets, so he is clearly feeling confident enough to get his run going. Only made one bad error, kicking to Toumpas one-on-one in the back half and not giving him a chance.

Grimes had another really solid game and is looking so much freer. His kicking has improved and the weight is clearly off his shoulders.

And Hogan. Get him up here. I wanna boof him (borrowed from Bill Lawry...).

Agree with everything except Tommy Mac. Thought he had an absolute shocker. I can't remember him winning a one-on-one either, which has been just so rare.

Who was our loose player in defence? Coz it sure didn't seem like we had one

Watts, unfortunately.

Edited May 30, 2015 by AdamFarr

[Je Roos Salem 661]

It was so eerily similar to what happened after Round 1.

What I will say is that a couple of decisions that gave them goals in the 2nd broke our morale. Really can't find many positives. The output from Jones, Vince and Lumumba at the start just dried up. Disappointing Jetta was subbed off and that Viney was sub, and by the looks of it it people were right in saying that Fitzy didn't have a match up because he did look lost out there and perhaps shouldn't have played

I agree that this was as bad a game as I've seen Watts play. Hopeless ball watching for most of the first 3 quarters, before getting some cheap ones but I'm seriously sick of him being a tall midfielder.

Bail was valuable last week, but we can't afford to have him or any player who constantly shits themselves under pressure the moment things go wrong.

Surprisingly, I thought Toumpas was alright. Spencer won or at least broke even the ruck. Brayshaw played like our best midfield and proved that he shouldn't be rested. Hogan managed to find the ball upfield late in the game (again) when no one was kicking to him. Thought our defence was very poor, Garland and Grimes were ok but mostly it looked like Port had full control of the game, even when they were down.

When we started to put numbers back, it looked like we subconsciously stopped trying in the centre. I think this is important to address. I don't think we can afford to put numbers behind the ball, we aren't skilled enough to find targets upfield and are too easily shut down. When we give up goals so easily the second things go wrong there's no point in being a defensively minded team, the 'damage control' style doesn't work for us, never has. The players should be instructed to run and move the ball quickly throughout all 4 quarters

Pathetic manning up and missed tackles in the 4th. Port ran and hit targets as they pleased

[Undeeterred 3,043]

Watts better not sook about copping it, he brings it on himself with his weekly pea hearted efforts.

Deserves everything he cops.

Do I hear the clattering hooves of a personal hobby horse?

[Goodvibes 3,596]

There's such a fine line. If we'd have converted two four goal leads this year we'd be sitting 5 - 4 having played the best four teams of the last two years. Remember not that long ago when we'd be four goals down in the first ten minutes against mediocre opposition most weeks? It's hard to see after second halves like yesterday, but we are getting better. And we're getting better with elite junior talent emerging.

[DemonOX 8,698]

What happens then?

We will still be discussing the same shite as we have been for the last 9 yrs.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,702]

They don't want to do this because in theory an extra two men in our forward line crowds our forward line and leaves their forward line open.

Us putting a loose man in defence has sure as hell never worked.

So surely this is worth a try. So what if it crowds our forward line? How much worse could it get? Do we just stand back and watch this guy cut us up the whole game?

Not manning up the loose man worked against Richmond but clearly didn't work yesterday. I guess you have to realise when it's going against you and make the change but I think Roos is more about trying to get the players playing the game on our terms and learning to cope with the opposition tactics. This will mean short term pain like yesterday but hopefully long term gain.

[jackaub 1,402]

Short Term Pian? Are you kidding surely

Roos was out coached again. Boak shut N Jones down and nobody stepped up. leaving Ebert alone and unmarked was a mistake and should have been fixed.

No man on man and we still dont look fit enough

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

So whats the solution jackaub?

Fire everyone, create unstability? Continue to damage the 'culture' of the club. Show the players there is no direction or leadership so they continue their careers elswhere?

U hit the nail on the head when in your above post you said we were outplayed. The amazing thing about footy is teams don't change much from week to week - you continue to have the same problems week to week until you develop or recruite a team who can do what you want.

The reality is that this club has been playing under Roos for 18 months and the list has been completely turned over. Apart from a Port Adeliaide miracle (which i don't see happening as we don't have the cattle they did) I am really happy the team is competitive most weeks. A couple years ago this was a 100pt flogging.

There is no excuses from my end, they boys were soundly beaten yesterday. My point is - we are a young "team'. Yes i know we have some experience which hasbeen brought in but as a Team the boys haven't played enough games together to be consistent week in week out.

You combine that with injuries and bring in young players and your Team has holes in it which other teams can exploit. yesterday Port smashed us in clearences and controlled the ball. We as a team couldn't counter their run and carry becuase of multiple reasons you explained.

Can Roos perform a miracle in 18 months and turn us in to Port - i'd say no he is no miracle bringer. But he is doing a couple things which the MFC need badly. bringing Development and Stability

Some people need to accept that the Dees haven't been anything more then a bottom 6 side for years and this year we are finally making some steps up the ladder - they just won't be massive miracle steps (although I would love that)

Edited May 31, 2015 by Unleash Hell

[Dr. Gonzo 23,702]

Exactly UH - Port have been in poor form but are still a good team. Look what they did to the Hawks earlier this year. We were on top early but couldn't put them away and then got a little bit lackadaisical while they piled on 6 goals in 8 minutes before half time (with at least half of those goals being directly from soft free kicks). This gave them their belief back and they ran over us emphatically. Lets see how they respond next week and then in the second half of the season. We will be playing clubs who are at our level for the remainder of the year save Freo and Geelong and should be able to get some more wins on the board.

Yes it was disappointing and yes there are still a number of players who won't be part of the team moving forward but this is what we have for now. I'm heartened by Hogan and Brayshaw and the fact we still have Salem, Kent, Petracca to come back into the side and Viney who didn't come on til the game was over yesterday. Spencer has been good the last two weeks as well.

[Gandalf46 133]

This is going to become a massive cultural problem if it isnt already.

Exactly why Mr Watts has to be traded. I can't remember a player (in recent history at least) that polarises MFC supporters. Better for him, better for us.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Gandalf46

[Frosty Demon 153]

Short Term Pian? Are you kidding surely

Roos was out coached again. Boak shut N Jones down and nobody stepped up. leaving Ebert alone and unmarked was a mistake and should have been fixed.

No man on man and we still dont look fit enough

True. Hinkley smashed us in the coaching box. This was already done however from the beginning of pre season. Hinkley plays to win, Roosys just here to develop and help.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

While true, Roos didn't change much when they got on top, any changes would have been in vain, we had ground to a halt with our run, and no matter what, we were in deep strife.

Selection perhaps more of an issue yesterday than any potential match day coaching issues.

Given the clear exhaustion, some of the tackles and other efforts were embarrassing. There was one in particular that was so embarrassing I just shook my head, but won't go into detail as will probably get howled down for picking on one of the whipping boys.

[titan_uranus 24,595]

I, quite randomly, went to the Dogs v GWS game yesterday - we ought not forget what a great performance we put in last week. The Dogs were so fast and aggressive yesterday, like a totally different side. But it was based primarily from run off half-back and GWS just didn't want to work hard enough to stop it.

Yes, yesterday was crap. But we beat a quality side last week, and didn't get enough credit for it.

[rjay 24,596]

Short Term Pian? Are you kidding surely

Roos was out coached again. Boak shut N Jones down and nobody stepped up. leaving Ebert alone and unmarked was a mistake and should have been fixed.

No man on man and we still dont look fit enough

Yep, Roos should have moved Tyson on to Boak...

We didn't have anyone, last year Tyson got the votes against Boak in what was a great duel in both games.

Face it 'jack', we didn't have the talent to move...we are a low rung team in the process of developing. There are some good signs but we still need to add to the talent pool.

ANB looks a good prospect at Casey but not ready to go yet, apart from that we have Tyson, Salem, Kent, Frost, JKH, Trengove & Petracca on the sidelines.

This means we have to go back to the likes of Bail and Jones...and I'm not going to put the boots in them, they give their best but are obviously not quality AFL players.

It also makes it hard to drop Howe and Watts as there are no obvious replacements.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

What annoys me is that with Jetta and Viney back and no injuries last week we should have had a better team than we did against the Bulldogs.