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THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS



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I hope they cop nothing as I want Melksham available for round 1.

I hope they do cop bans. If its Milkshake as well more fool us.

There has to be some rules and then abidance of them otherwise it's sporting anarchy.

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- The 2-3 players found to have tested positive to TB4 ...

There is no WADA-approved test for TB4, so no-one can be found to have tested positive (within the meaning of the code).

Though it doesn't really matter: a doping infringement is a doping infringement, no matter what path you take to get there, presence or not.

If WADA can establish their non-presence case, penalties will be the same: 2 years, with deductions for time served provisionally, and perhaps some deduction (6 months?) for "no significant fault" if they can establish that (not a given).

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So Dees2014, what sanctions do you think will be applied: 1 yr, 2 yrs? Any backdating, or allowance for previous provisional suspensions?

I am clear on the options for sanctions but not on where you stand on the suspensions you believe will be meted out.

You've dismissed the 'guilty but no new sanctions' outcome as put by Masters.

For the record my view is:

- Not all 34 players will be found guilty.

- The 2-3 players found to have tested positive to TB4 will probably get new suspensions ie 6 months (from date of decision ie Jan 2016)

- The other players found guilty will get the benefit of backdating and allowances and will not miss games.

Clearly you believe all 34 will be found guilty.

So for the record, what is your prediction of the sanctions (months? years? start date?) and any allowances/backdating?

Thank you bb. I have seen you make these points in earlier posts and appreciate you reiterating them.

I haven't seen a summary (I may have missed it) of what Dees2014 thinks will happen to the 34 players (the sole focus of the CAS hearing) re sanctions/penalties/allowances/backdating.

So am hoping he will post on that (not the fallout to other parties from a guilty CAS finding on which I have seen his posts).

LH, have been a bit busy running my business over the last 48 hours. Currently in Hong Kong. Will post a reply to you in the next day or so. Not too far off BB, except I think there will be very serious repercussions for the old Essendon hierarchy from Hird's era coming out of the findings of CAS. The CAS findings will be a signal from which much else will follow including ASADA charging Hird and the rest of the former Don's hierchy and board with all manner is misrants resulting in have fines, and some receiving heavy sentences ( in the sporting sense). The players are in many ways a sideshow, albeit the most visible one. WADA and CAS are after the perpetrators, and that is Hird and his gang, at least that is what my WADA informants are telling me. They don't expect it to be pretty.

More later

To expand on my above comments, I do not believe the actions of ASADA/WADA/CAS throughout this sordid and scandalous episode has primarily been about the players. The objectives of mcdevitt and ASADA, backed up by WADA, has always been to nail the perpetrators, and in this case it was primarily Hird, and his acolytes in the club who went along with his illegal and cheating plans to gain an unfair advantage over th rest of the AFL competition. But in the first instance, they had to establish that cheating took place and that means illegal drugs were administered to the playing group, therefore infraction notices had to be sent to them in order to establish that. The CAS hearing is all about establishing that fact.

From there, if that is established to the satisfaction of the court, then a number of things flow. Initially, I have no doubt a number of infraction notices will be sent to coaches and officials from that era by ASADA, and as a result Hird and Doc Reid will both be rubbed out for life from all sports. Then ASADA will go through most of the other coaches and exercise scientists (including unfortunately Goodwin) and they will get a variety of sentences depending on the level of proof of their involvement and knowledge, but most will be suspended in one form or another. Then they will closely look at the board, and whilst this may may not result in direct penalties by CAS, their intention is to comment unfavourably on their behaviors with the aim of influencing WorkSafe to act against them. As we all know, Worksafe has the power to impose criminal sanctions against Board members who oversee unsafe work practices in their workplaces. This I think helps explain why Worksafe has held off until now to act.

Finally the players. As I have stated many times on here, the AFL, ASADA, and the Evans led Essendon, worked out a settlement in 2013 to the satisfaction of all concerned which looked very like the Cronulla deal and involved the players admitting guilt but crucially also called for Hird to fall on his sword and resign. This of course he wouldn't do, and instead he rolled Evans, supposedly his best mate, bought in Little, and the two of them went on this three year orgy of obfuscation, obstructionism, litigation, and often straight out lying. This of course has got them nowhere because fortunately people of integrity, notably McDevitt and certain crusading journalists like Wilson and Smith, decided this was so outrageous they would not let them get away with it. And they haven't but it has been a very close thing. The players are the pawns in all this, but without them at least admitting guilt and getting at least some penalties even if at least some are backdated, the rest of the scenario doesn't fly. It is crucial that guilt is established first and foremost with the players.

What do I think will happen to them? I think the players will be found guilty, they will admit guilt and receive mostly two year sentences, with some backdating, although personally I find it illogical that there can be backdating when they have still been playing over the backdated period. The overall effect is that most players will be back on the field for the start of the 2017 season.

The longer term damage though will be huge and I have no doubt the legal fallout will go on for years. Hopefully, Hird and Little will fade away in disgrace, never to be heard of again......

Edited by Dees2014
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Thanks Dees2014.

I had this (seemingly futile) hope that once the CAS case was over we would never hear of this saga again!

Seeing Hird eventually fall from grace was important and if there is more of the same to come for him so be it.

But he is probably out there writing his book with 'the truth'!!

Probably as truthful as the rag that once went by that name!

For mine once the CAS case is decided my interest in the saga will end.

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This will continue on for years.

Hal Hunter will get paid out I would assume but there will be others like Paddy Rider that are having children and will want to know what was injected into them etc.

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2014...there is NO backdating... there IS however room to DEDUCT any voluntary suspensions as you would know.. This alone wil lprobably be put against teh 2 years.. as they were only of around 4.5 months then they should still get a near 20 month ban.

Thats my understanding...and from Judgement Day !! :)

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2014...there is NO backdating... there IS however room to DEDUCT any voluntary suspensions as you would know.. This alone wil lprobably be put against teh 2 years.. as they were only of around 4.5 months then they should still get a near 20 month ban.

Thats my understanding...and from Judgement Day !! :)

bb, you keep forgetting to add one significant matter...they have to be found to have taken TB-4 first. It's all very well to keep talking about penalties, but I'm yet to be convinced there will be a detrimental finding against the players.

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bb, you keep forgetting to add one significant matter...they have to be found to have taken TB-4 first. It's all very well to keep talking about penalties, but I'm yet to be convinced there will be a detrimental finding against the players.

Im comfortably satisfied they will be ^_^

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BB. I agree there is technically no backdating. However deducting suspensions from the sentences will be seen by the media and the public as a form ofcbackdating

2014...there is NO backdating... there IS however room to DEDUCT any voluntary suspensions as you would know.. This alone wil lprobably be put against teh 2 years.. as they were only of around 4.5 months then they should still get a near 20 month ban.

Thats my understanding...and from Judgement Day !! :)

Agree BB. I could have worded it better.

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To expand on my above comments, I do not believe the actions of ASADA/WADA/CAS throughout this sordid and scandalous episode has primarily been about the players. The objectives of mcdevitt and ASADA, backed up by WADA, has always been to nail the perpetrators, and in this case it was primarily Hird, and his acolytes in the club who went along with his illegal and cheating plans to gain an unfair advantage over th rest of the AFL competition. But in the first instance, they had to establish that cheating took place and that means illegal drugs were administered to the playing group, therefore infraction notices had to be sent to them in order to establish that. The CAS hearing is all about establishing that fact.

Not sure you can lump the CAS in here 'Dees2014', they are not about nailing any perpetrators and if they were we would be in even bigger trouble with sport worldwide.

They are an independent body and as such I don't see where they're taken any side in this. They will sit in judgement of the evidence provided from both sides, the players and WADA...

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Not sure you can lump the CAS in here 'Dees2014', they are not about nailing any perpetrators and if they were we would be in even bigger trouble with sport worldwide.

They are an independent body and as such I don't see where they're taken any side in this. They will sit in judgement of the evidence provided from both sides, the players and WADA...

I disagree. They are about upholding the WADA code and punishing those who have signed up to the code and then flout it. That is exactly what Hird and his crew did, and therefore are and should be in the sights of WADA, about which CAS will make judgements. if I have not made this abundantly clear, I will now. It is the responsibility of local offshoots (ASADA/USADA) to initially ensure compliance with WADA codes and they do issue infraction notices again people who do not comply. It is the responsibility of the local sport tribunals (eg AFL tribunal) to initially pass judgements and issue penalties if any. If in WADA's view these are not sufficient then they can appeal them to CAS, and WADA then conducts the prosecutions as appropriate. It is CAS's role to make the ultimate judgement, about which there is virtually no access to appeal.

When I said the "they have them in the gun" or words to that effect, I was referring to WADA/ASADA. CAS is the umpire

Edited by Dees2014
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I disagree. The are about upholding the WADA code and punishing those who have signed up to the code and then flout it. That is exactly what Hird and his crew did, and therefore are and should be in the sights of WADA, about which CAS will make judgements. if I have not made this abundantly clear, I will now. It is the responsibility of local offshoots (ASADA/USADA) to initially ensure compliance with WADA codes and they do issue infraction notices again people who do not comply. It is the responsibility of the local sport tribunals (eg AFL tribunal) to initially pass judgements and issue penalties if any. If in WADA's view these are not sufficient then they can appeal them to CAS, and WADA then conducts the prosecutions as appropriate. it is CAS's role to make the ultimate judgement, about which there are virtually no access to appeal.

When I said the "they have them in the gun" or words to that effect, I was referring to WADA/ASADA. CAS is the umpire

Exactly...

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Any one else noted the proliferation of articles in the Hun over the last couple of days telling us all about how hard WADA have it and how badly done by the players have been. is really quite sad.

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Any one else noted the proliferation of articles in the Hun over the last couple of days telling us all about how hard WADA have it and how badly done by the players have been. is really quite sad.

yes hasn't gone unnoticed. .lol

Typical propaganda lol

Ings either being misquoted ( which i doubt...hes just sour )

Hun running with usual rubbish. Total misrepresentation on the reality.

Don't actually need new evidence ( though it'll be presented) just need ears not preset to equital.

Go CAS you good thing.

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yes hasn't gone unnoticed. .lol

Typical propaganda lol

Ings either being misquoted ( which i doubt...hes just sour )

Hun running with usual rubbish. Total misrepresentation on the reality.

Don't actually need new evidence ( though it'll be presented) just need ears not preset to equital.

Go CAS you good thing.

just need judges willing to join the very close dot between tb4 being imported to the chemist and into Danks hands to into the players bodies as part of their 10,000+ injections.

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bb, you keep forgetting to add one significant matter...they have to be found to have taken TB-4 first.

They don't actually. On the one hand, WADA only need to establish intent, and on the other, they only have to be found to have "probably" taken it (where probably = comfortable satisfaction).

What it turns on for me is that WADA would never have appealed unless they were sure they could nail them. End of.

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