When does the coach start taking the blame?

[Gator 18,014]

How big an issue is it?

Again here are some stats comparing Matt Jones and Chris Salem (chosen because few here would question his disposal).

Matt Jones

Freo: 14 disposals, 71.4 DE, 6 Clangers

Foots: 18 disposals, 83.3 DE, 3 Clangers

Esse: 18 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Chris Salem

Freo: 9 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Foots: 24 disposals, 79.2 DE, 2 Clangers

Esse: 20 disposals, 70 DE, 4 Clangers.

Comparison:

Salem: 53 disposals, 9 Clangers

Jones: 50 disposals, 12 Clangers

Not sure what you do with DE but it doesn't feel right to add together and divide by 3! Someone can probably help but I reckon (intuitively) MJ has a better DE.

From those stats I'd say Matt Jones disposal issues are overstated. I think he's a lock for round 1.

Salem has the ability to switch play and create off half-back with penetrating kicks, which is a far more valuable commodity than the bit of speed Jones brings.

Jones will average 19 possessions and 70 ranking points,provide the odd stirring run, give away more free kicks than he receives, average 2.7 tackles, which is well below what's required, and turn it over at the most inopportune time. One guy is 27 years old with virtually no improvement left, the other is 19 and drips with talent. One player epitomises why we're occupying the lower reaches of the ladder and the other is a spark of hope why we won't stay there.

As far as our fortunes go, players like Matt Jones matters not a jot of difference whether they play or sit in the stand.

[deanox 10,052]

For the stats you gave Salem had a DE of 77.3% and Jones had a DE of 82%. Pretty close.

My problem with DE is what it means. A long kick to a contest we lose is fine as is a short kick to not a contest even if the kick or handball is horrible.

What I see from Jones is poor mistakes at crucial times. Often silly mistakes, with no apparent need or a better option available.

I like Jones. He has a go. He tries and takes it on, but my observation is, he does a couple of things a have that hurt us.

The difference with Salem is that he looks to have the ability to hurt opposition through more than endeavour. That is why he is given a break, the thought that his mistakes will balance out with a bit of skill/genius.

[Webber 10,641]

How big an issue is it?

Again here are some stats comparing Matt Jones and Chris Salem (chosen because few here would question his disposal).

Matt Jones

Freo: 14 disposals, 71.4 DE, 6 Clangers

Foots: 18 disposals, 83.3 DE, 3 Clangers

Esse: 18 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Chris Salem

Freo: 9 disposals, 88.9 DE, 3 Clangers

Foots: 24 disposals, 79.2 DE, 2 Clangers

Esse: 20 disposals, 70 DE, 4 Clangers.

Comparison:

Salem: 53 disposals, 9 Clangers

Jones: 50 disposals, 12 Clangers

Not sure what you do with DE but it doesn't feel right to add together and divide by 3! Someone can probably help but I reckon (intuitively) MJ has a better DE.

From those stats I'd say Matt Jones disposal issues are overstated. I think he's a lock for round 1.

Agreed Baghdad. I just don't get the slagging off that Matt Jones gets on here. It's a kind of bizarre groupthink. I think a lot on here would be shocked at how well he's regarded by the coaching staff. He is a hard worker and runs both ways quickly. I can't remember the last time he was beaten one on one, and he is FAR from the worst user of the ball on our list.

[Slartibartfast 18,039]

I'm in no way arguing Jones = or > Salem. Just there is not the difference people think. Most would have Jones in bottom quartile of disposers of the footy and Salem top quartile. If the stats are to be believed Jones is not the FUM most think.

And I agree on the stats. What if an effective disposal, what is a clanger? But whatever they are they are the same for both.

[Slartibartfast 18,039]

It's a kind of bizarre groupthink.

Careful Webber. I was nearly banned for using that concept.

[Older demon 2,799]

The blame for what? Trying to rebuild and turn around a basket case!! He has been there a season and a half please tell me just what is he supposed to have done in that time. win us a flag. We started from a long way back and our defensive skills poor. Some AFL coaches have spent their first 2 seasons just working on a sides defensive skills, drills and match play. They all start here and then build the offensive side and then you need the cattle.

Please don't quote to me what the Kanga's Hawks and others do as they are light years ahead in their preparation and skill sets.

If you want more goals and attacking style then build a goal kicking midfield and don't rely on the key forwards. When we went attacking late last season we scored goals but the opposition scored way more.

Have a defence that launches attack after attack from deep in defence with precision play and foot skills.

One cannot lament the poor disposal skills of some on the list and then blame the coach for not coaching a more attacking style. You build the style and while doing so adapt your game with the cattle you have. Tyson is in his 3rd season: Salem, JKH, Kent, are in their second season. Riley, Newton, Michie have played a hand full of games while Toumpas, Viney are only learning the caper. Then there are the new recruits Stretch, Neal-Bullen, Petracca and Bradshaw. I think the expectation is too high and quoting first year players that come in and dominate needs to be examined if they are coming into or should I say be eased into an established team with leaders and mentors to guide them. Praise the coach and his team for bringing in Vince, Lamumba and Cross who will mentor these young guys.

Roos level of success will be measured in 5 years not 5 months and the long term strategy and team style is being built now. The good news is that Goodwin appears to favour a more attacking approach but he will achieve this only only if he has the right cattle. Grand finals are won by teams with the best defence.....

[Gorgoroth 13,188]

With those possessions, you need to see how long they were, if they were a safe kick back etc

How many frees against, scores or shots on goal they were a part of, etc etc.

When you see M Jones play you see desire and effort, good speed, works hard. But you also see silly frees against, the guy can't seem to tackle and not a lot of upside.

With Salem it's nothing but upside.

If M Jones had that shot v Essendon I would have been nervous as hell. With Salem I was very confident he would kick it.

So much upside with Salem.

[grazman 7,537]

How big an issue is it?

Comparison:

Salem: 53 disposals, 9 Clangers

Jones: 50 disposals, 12 Clangers

Not sure what you do with DE but it doesn't feel right to add together and divide by 3! Someone can probably help but I reckon (intuitively) MJ has a better DE.

From those stats I'd say Matt Jones disposal issues are overstated. I think he's a lock for round 1.

BB I'm not sure those clangers include Free kicks against (pretty sure they don't). Jones had 8 Frees against in the NAB (5 in the Freo game alone) and Salem 1. Again its a matter of perspective, (and I like to think that I'm relatively balanced in my views of players), but clearly its the one area Jones needs to work on. He falls into the back of opposition players far too often for someone at this level. He needs to sort it out and it makes him an easy target for detractors. Like you I think he's a lock for round 1, he provides run and spread and is team oriented, but he's going to give the haters ammunition to hate.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I had Matt Jones in my best 22, but he played himself out of it during the pre-season. He will still play though I'm sure.

If people don't believe he is a bad kick, that's fine, but don't go calling it groupthink or some other denigrating term. Personally, I think his disposal has been terrible this pre-season, and I think I am reasonably open minded and unbiased. For example, I would say Tom MacDonald has been using the ball really well this pre-season, whereas he was butchering far too many last year.

[Grapeviney 9,914]

It's a kind of bizarre groupthink.

Or perhaps it's just the consensus opinion.

People judge players based on what they see in games, not what they read on here.

[DemonDan83 95]

Roos is 100% the man for the job today. His role is more than just coaching. He is setting the foundations for a whole new culture.

I totally agree with this. I see Roos job as being more than just a footy coach right now. Yes we all want immediate success no one more than myself but I feel that Roos is there to lay the foundations, set the culture and get the club back into a fighting position. It's almost unfair to judge Roos as a coach in terms of win/loss, we will all be thanking Roos for years to come because he was the person who came to our club to lay the foundation/change the culture. You can see that in the way he is ruthless when it comes to list turnover and I have no doubt more will leave at the end of the year. I for one think Roos is the only man in the AFL for this job right now! Goodwin will have a good team and culture to take over as senior coach!

[Brayshaw Self 847]

Matt Jones is our only midfielder with any speed. Until Kent and Stretch can take over, we pretty much need him for team balance.

[Deecisive 1,709]

what good is speed if you turn the ball over regularly with clangers and give away 5 free kicks, what is the players net value to the team compared to his opponent. Sorry to me Matt Jones makes too many errors and gives up too many frees.

[CityDee 738]

The coach should be congratulated, damage control is where we were at last season . We got decent draft pics and recruited well . If we turn players loose again at seasons end so be it . Roosy is rebuilding our list both with gamelan adjustment culture proffesionalism fitness etc . If we take our chances in front of goal we can beat anyone . No complaints when we beat The crows dons blues and tiges last year . We can play an offensive game if executed correctly and we kick straight .

[TGR 1,367]

Matt Jones is our only midfielder with any speed. Until Kent and Stretch can take over, we pretty much need him for team balance.

Agree, but that underlines our problem.

I see a lot of Frawley in Matt Jones. Chook, speed, head cut off etc...

Does that make me a part of the bizarre group think tank?

[Samael 560]

Roos is 100% the man for the job today. His role is more than just coaching. He is setting the foundations for a whole new culture.

I don't think anyone doubts the size of the task Roos took on last year. However he is not under the same pressure as other coaches are as he is on defined tenure and is virtually immune to performance measures. This is a good thing IMO because he can experiment over his tenure with no fear. His success will be inevitably be measured in the team he hands over to Goodwin. Unfortunately for the supporters this is not necessarily the same measure of success we want. Wins and ladder position matter to the average punter. We need to see some degree of improvement and according to my mates (various team supporters) after the Essendon game (and a lesser extent the Dogs fade out) even though they were practice matches we have not improved. They also delight in reminding me that we set the last 2 NAB games up as "our Round 1" suggesting we were not treating them as friendlies.

My only query on Roos approach thus far is why he has not been to one Casey game? I know he would get down the ground vision and possible full ground tapes but as we all know no amount of vision replaces being at the ground. I would have thought a new coach intent on changing the culture would be keen on evaluating all his resources and not relying on other to provide him with their opinion. I go to a fair few VFL games and you always see the other AFL coaches including their support staff and many of the firsts. Never saw Roos at a Casey game and have had it confirmed that he only views tapes of Casey games. Personally I think its a flaw but then I am not an AFL coach and he does have the pedigree.

I am loathe to criticise players because I simply do not know what their specific instructions are. I often wonder why certain players do things but expect that if it is that obvious to me and they don't act as I would then they must have certain instructions that stop them from doing the obvious. It hass happened to me in my own career ("don't go past the forward 50" "drop back on the resting ruckman" or "wear no x and forget the ball". After all they have made it to the big time and I didn't. I do get annoyed at basic skill errors but I see all players make them and I certainly make mistakes in my job without some 6 and a half foot gorilla (or Messerschmidt) on my back about to kill me.

[ILLDieADemon 804]

The reason PJ got Roos is so conversations like these wouldn't come up in the next 3 years of rebuilding.

Enough said!

[beelzebub 23,390]

Or perhaps it's just the consensus opinion.

People judge players based on what they see in games, not what they read on here.

Its an odd concept isnt it.. Looking , observing.,...ignoring useless stats. Just appreciating the ebb and flow of the game as it manifests before you

[beelzebub 23,390]

Matt Jones is our only midfielder with any speed. Until Kent and Stretch can take over, we pretty much need him for team balance.

hmmm....tortoise and hare comes to mind !!

that and ....Haste and Waste

[DemonFrog 1,359]

When the Club can provide a playing squad full of AFL standard players. Otherwise just sit back an enjoy another rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild of a rebuild.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

And what do the nah says want sack roos & Goodwin, hire who? Start another rebuild? No the club must see it through, the foundation must be set before you build a house then the frame, then the roof,then the brickwork, things must seem at their worst before they get better.

Lets take Adelaide for example, Sanderson got them a few kicks from a grand final in his first year, they were out in the second season, and he was gone by the third season, why because he did not lay the foundation first. So the club must see this through, every other way has been tried, so sit tight and like a great Hitchcock movie just watch every twist and turn.

[mo64 5,886]

And what do the nah says want sack roos & Goodwin, hire who? Start another rebuild? No the club must see it through, the foundation must be set before you build a house then the frame, then the roof,then the brickwork, things must seem at their worst before they get better.

Lets take Adelaide for example, Sanderson got them a few kicks from a grand final in his first year, they were out in the second season, and he was gone by the third season, why because he did not lay the foundation first. So the club must see this through, every other way has been tried, so sit tight and like a great Hitchcock movie just watch every twist and turn.

Show me one poster who has stated that? Just as it's fair to discuss the performances of a player, who's position on the list is without question, it's fair to discuss the performance of the coach, is it not?

[dazzledavey36 55,990]

And what do the nah says want sack roos & Goodwin, hire who? Start another rebuild? No the club must see it through, the foundation must be set before you build a house then the frame, then the roof,then the brickwork, things must seem at their worst before they get better.

Lets take Adelaide for example, Sanderson got them a few kicks from a grand final in his first year, they were out in the second season, and he was gone by the third season, why because he did not lay the foundation first. So the club must see this through, every other way has been tried, so sit tight and like a great Hitchcock movie just watch every twist and turn.

No one on here has even mentioned they want to sack Roos?

[Webber 10,641]

Or perhaps it's just the consensus opinion.

People judge players based on what they see in games, not what they read on here.

Oddly enough, it's not the consensus at the club itself. I'm also not sure how you assume 'consensus' from the posts on here. Wouldn't you have to poll people?

[Webber 10,641]

Its an odd concept isnt it.. Looking , observing.,...ignoring useless stats. Just appreciating the ebb and flow of the game as it manifests before you

I couldn't give a flying f*** what the stats tell me about Matt Jones game. I also assess from your idea of looking, observing and appreciating the ebb and flow of the game. Based on that, he's easily best 22 for me. Other opinions are however available, and sometimes they're noisy.