THE MATCH: NET GAIN IN THE WEST

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

What was instrumental in turning the game for Freo was our inability in the second quarter to apply pressure through the centre of the ground and out of our forward line which gave talented forwards the opportunity to ply their trade.

Grimes, McKenzie, Dunn and Garland were a substantial part of a defense that contained Freo very well on the day. On the TV none of those guys appeared to play well but if they hadn't we'd have been smashed.

It seems clear your happy to ignore the evidence right there in front of you. Regardless of what was happening up the ground Walters provided a real spark for freo in the second and Grimes was unable to nullify it. How often last year were our midfield poor yet Jetta managed to keep whoever he was on quiet.

It's funny you mention McKenzie. He wasn't on in the second. Although, like Grimes, his disposal is not a strength, at least with McKenzie I know he will shut out his opponent. There were games when the likes of Jetta and McKenzie really claimed a scalp. I don't recall the last time I could say that about Grimes. If he is not going to be an elite user if the ball that is a real issue for him.

I agree with you on the umpiring however. It happened a few times last year to us. And it is hard to know if your being biased or we really did cop the rough end of the stick.

[sue 8,430]

He chased a player pretty poorly which I think resulted in a goal. The commentators commented on it, he looked stuffed.

If I recall correctly he had no chance of catching or even putting pressure on that player regardless of his fitness level. Given the conditions I'd rather a player wisely conserved his energy rather than put in an effort purely for show. Almost every player looked stuffed at some time or other - just had to point the camera at them.

[T-34 409]

Good to see many writing off Gawn for poor kicking/decision making yet are happy to have Jamar who missed everything from 10 metres out.

[Deecisive 1,651]

Watching the game I was pretty disappointed with a lot of the poor disposal, poor tackling, dropped marks and a miss from 5 meters out.

Now reflecting on it, it was a practice game, far better than an interclub match for giving players a real work out. The nab cup means nothing to me other than a chance to see the Dees play. I thought quite a few players played really poorly, yet I did not see anyone really get taken to the cleaners all night.

Our delivery into the forward line was not terribly good, kicking long, high, over the head of, behind, etc... this should improve as players start to get a bit more match practice and it will improve because those that don't will be replaced by those who do it better. We have a bit more depth this year, so hopefully we will see players trying much harder to improve to make it into the team, instead of us having to play players because they are the best of a bad/out of form bunch.

Umpiring was ordinary- Garland gave away several frees for holding yet the same rules were not applied to our forwards. Holding the ball was all over the shop at times some players holding if far longer and getting away with it, others getting pinged quickly. Though I must sat Mat Jones did stand out in the free department. Even the goal umpires were pretty ordinary, not being able to tell when a ball hits the post.

Roos needs to use the rest of the nab cup to test players in match conditions, play them in different positions and see how they go. We still have a few good players to come in who will displace some of those that did not measure up. and those that do not measure up need to think about how are they going to stay on the list if they don't improve.

I like Gawny I think he will come into his own standing tall in the goal square, that will take some big opposition player out of the game, he does not need to always mark it as long as he can contribute to a contest to bring it to the ground so our small forwards have a chance at getting some crumbs.

[Juicebox 596]

I'm amazed everyone is writing off Gawn. For such a big player I think he has plenty of x-factor and his skills aren't as bad as people make out (despite that terrible turnover).

Come on Clint, he's a 23 year old, 208cm ruckman who has had some pretty serious injuries throughout his career. There is no excuse for his performance Thursday night...

[Slartibartfast 15,761]

It seems clear your happy to ignore the evidence right there in front of you.

This is where I get frustrated. As a result of our discussion I went and looked at a replay of the first three quarters to see if in fact I'd got it completely wrong. I tried to focus, as far as I could, on who was playing on who and how they went. It's very hard on TV but you can pick up some things.

In the first Grimes seemed to play on Mayne from what I could see. Of course with rotations and the such this isn't a "24/7" thing but that's what I saw. Mayne was pretty much kickless in the first quarter as was Grimes.

In the second I watch specifically for Walters and Grimes. Walters had two meaningful possessions in that quarter. One was when we turned the ball over in the centre when Pedersen dropped a regulation chest mark and Hill gathered the ball and speared a pass to Walters who goaled.

The second was when Hill again had the ball in the centre well clear and kicked to Walters who was corralled by Grimes but was good enough to gather the bouncing ball and get a really good pass away to Pavlich. It was really good play by Walters and I'd imagine Roos would suggest Grimes did the right thing in staying goal side of Walters and not letting the ball go over the back with Walters running into space and goal. Stinga really good forwards to this sort of thing. Rioli, Wingard, Gray, Ballantyne and Gartlett amongst others do it for a living. They do it on all opponents from time to time because they are exceptional footballers.

I get Grimes is the new DL whipping boy and I'm not arguing that he's flying and isn't under pressure for his spot. My belief is that people have predetermined ideas on players and when they watch a game they let these ideas frame how they see their performance. Grimes did nothing wrong in either of those pieces of play. Pedersen did and I'd imagine Cross did because again from what I could see he was tagging Hill. And in the second piece of play nobody mentioned that Pav's opponent didn't cover him and was instrumental to us losing the game.

Another classic example is McKenzie's game. He basically didn't make a mistake. He kept his opponent goalless and didn't make a disposal mistake. He had one free kick awarded against him when someone handballed to his feet and he was tackled in gathering the ball and pinged. But if you read the comments after the game day thread you'd think he'd committed murder. He's not a creative player and never will be. We all know this and Roos knows it. Roos wants McKenzie to play his role which he did to perfection but he got no credit from the DL critics. Again I'm not arguing McKenzie is a first 22 player, I don't think he is but he does deserve credit for playing well. What we got was all the McKenzie haters using the game to say he's no good. That isn't what happened on the day.

With favourites and villains which we all have it's very hard to see their games in an unbiased way. Mo64 dislikes players and focuses on their mistakes to prove his point. He never mentions or perhaps sees the good things they do. I reckon Dunn is a very overrated player and I thought he was terrible but I didn't say so and when I watched the game again he did basically what Grimes and McKenzie did. He stopped his opponent and did little else.

The only comfort we all have is it matters diddly squat what we think and those with much more knowledge than us will make the decisions.

We'll see what happens with Grimes. If he's as bad as you say there is no way Roos will pick him.

Anyway whilst you think I ignore the evidence in front of me I'd suggest you are guilty of exactly that. But it doesn't actually matter a damn.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

McKenzie is our Robert Klomp....stopper extraordinaire. Will play a role in 2015 (not for Casey, for all the cheeky wags out there)

Grimes will get better too.

[jnrmac 18,954]

I have to say that I was happy with the performance, I can't remember the last time we haven't been belted by Freo so that's a positive.

THE GOOD

N.JONES - Terrific first half then he faded.

NEWTON - Great first half until he got subbed out, will need to improve his fitness though.

Posters making definitive statements like this just show their ignorance.What because he copped a knock and was subbed out???

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Come on Clint, he's a 23 year old, 208cm ruckman who has had some pretty serious injuries throughout his career. There is no excuse for his performance Thursday night...

In fairness, I'm just as critical of Toumpas so I am a massive hypocrite. I can just see more potential in Gawn.

[grazman 6,433]

Thanks Ungarieboy for a pretty fair assessment.

Dunn, Grimes, McKenzie and Garland have come in for some severe criticism from many, particularly in the match day thread. But Walters, Ballantyne and Mayne played no major part in the game. I know Walters got a bit of it in the second but once was from a terrible turnover up the field that led to a situation where no defender could stop. That was his only goal. As the commentators said, Ballantyne and Walters are close to the two best small forwards in the game and those players of ours that are being maligned did the job. I suppose many would prefer to see those four get multiple possessions but not stop their opponents. I'll probably never be able to judge how they went tonight because I'll never really know who they were on or what their role was but I'm betting Roos thinks they did a lot better than most here.

I was disappointed that we played so many big forwards in the first half and reckon this just about cost us the game (and I realize that is not really important). In the second quarter when the big forwards tired and the ball became slippery we were inept in applying any defensive pressure in the forward 50. Roos tactics seemed very strange to me. I get that he might have been wanting to look at the talls but he stated his primary goal was to practice the game plan which revolves around contests.

And for all those lamenting the skill errors you should listen to what Roos said before the game. If they are still happening in R5 then get worried. It's hard to think of a player who didn't butcher the ball once or twice, except perhaps Jordie who ran at 100%!

BB (or should I say Deefan), I don't think there was any modification to the gameplay per se, just the structure up forward - if that makes sense. I think Roos wanted to see a competitive team, but I'm sure given the nature of these types of games that a three goal loss was neither here nor there (but a ten goal blow out might have been a real concern for both supporters and playing group).

There was a quick comment at the start of the game that Melbourne and Freo had both started with a four tall forward line. My impression was that both Roos and Lyon had some conversations about this prior to the game. I think they were both looking at the experimental aspect of the NAB challenge to try to trial some players and develop some added flexibility. Dermott then spoke about Frost being identified as a swingman capable of playing forward and back. Many may only see him as a key back, but his height, athleticism and his speed (I was very impressed at his closing speed when playing in defence) mean that if he can develop his kicking he's the ideal player for both roles (and maybe Oscar Mac too) whereas I think both Col and Tommy Mac have too many limitations to play them in the forward line. I think come the season proper we will see far more of a Hawthorn style conventional forward line with two key talls and a range of smaller players capable of playing through the midfield as well ( Like others I think Vandenberg may well be a seriously good find as a smallish tall/tallish mid if he can build on his debut).

Like many I was disappointed by Gawn's game, but having said that I can't believe so many are quick to write him off. At the same age Mark Jamar played 22 games in the 2006 season and couldn't crack a single B&F vote (he wasn't called donuts for nothing). Now I'm not comparing apples and oranges here, I don't think Max will be as good in the ruck (which is the only string to the Russian's bow IMO and contrary to popular belief he is rarely beaten in the ruck contest), but he can still get better. He is actually nearly four inches taller after all. Ruck men take time to develop and I'm bemused that so many supporters now would have Stefan Martin back in a heartbeat when he was a bee's [censored] away from not getting another contract at the Lions. I think Max has far more potential than Stefan (so long as his knees hold out).

Anyway I think there was enough to be bullish about from that showing, but only time will tell whether my expectations have been built beyond the ability of the team to perform (which isn't really all that high anyway. 8-10 wins).

Edited March 6, 2015 by grazman

[ILLDieADemon 804]

I hate to burst the bubble but we Lost to Collingwood in the 2012 NAB cup by 20 points and they finished 4th that season, we finished 16th.

We need to be beating these top 4 sides like the Lions to show any type of improvement because these side don't take is seriously.

We didn't kick a goal in 2 out of 4 quarters, we maybe a bit more competitive then last year but we will struggle to get it of the bottom 4.

I'm sceard to get my hopes up untill the real season starts.

Edited March 7, 2015 by ILLDieADemon

[grazman 6,433]

This is the type of game which can be viewed from a "glass half full" or a "glass half empty" approach; and you could be justified in mounting your argument. I prefer to take the "why isn't someone getting me another beer!" approach, when I reach the halfway mark (yes looking forward to the future).

Thank you, it's posts like yours that make it still worthwhile to read demonland.

[BAMF 3,787]

I hate to burst the bubble but we Lost to Collingwood in the 2012 NAB cup by 20 points and they finished 4th that season, we finished 16th.

We need to be beating these top 4 sides like the Lions to show any type of improvement because these side don't take is seriously.

We didn't kick a goal in 2 out of 4 quarters, we maybe a bit more competitive then last year but we will struggle to get it of the bottom 4.

I'm sceard to get my hopes up untill the real season starts.

2012 Nab cup round 2. Melbourne defeated Collingwood by 9pts.

We got belted by the hawks the following week by 79pts. Another touch up followed from Port the next week.

That was the year we got belted by Brisbane in round 1. There were many tears.

[Slartibartfast 15,761]

My impression was that both Roos and Lyon had some conversations about this prior to the game.

As I was watching the Lions v Swans game last night and thinking back to the Hawthorn Collingwood game last week I wondered at the differing philosophies of the top clubs coming into the NAB series. Hawks played a very young team, Swans hardly turned up and other top teams have played the youngsters. But Freo basically went in full strength barring injuries as did we.

Did Roos and Lyon agree to this? Why would McPharlin and Pav play? Seemed odd to me and I'm just wondering if Roos asked Ross to really test us. Having said that, I'm not sure why he would.

[Damo 2,988]

This is where I get frustrated.

Grimes did nothing wrong in either of those pieces of play.

Another classic example is McKenzie's game. He basically didn't make a mistake.

I reckon Dunn is a very overrated player and I thought he was terrible but I didn't say so and when I watched the game again he did basically what Grimes and McKenzie did. He stopped his opponent and did little else.

I have sliced some of your post and it could be argued this puts statements out of context.

Its difficult to argue with you BB because you happily change sides in an argument to spice things up.

However lately just as my pet peeves include Jamar McKenzie and Grimes, you have some yourself, which you seem passionate about.

You have always disliked Dunn and have called him a coward more than once. You defend Grimes and McKenzie to the point that I suspect you sponsor one or both. You bring Dean Bailey into topics where no one had mentioned him or his era.

Like Saty you toe the line for your boys, which is admirable.

Your arguments have been thought provoking and witty.

I dont include the above. I also didnt include where you said McKenzie played his role to perfection because I had to read it twice.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Franky_31

[Its Time for Another 4,053]

I'll admit that I wasn't super excited when we got Frost, but when I saw run from the backline then through the middle and do the old one two I thought geez we've needed someone that can do that for a while now.

I'm looking forward to the season ahead, we're not going to be playing in the grand final but we're going to be competitive this year and who knows... just maybe if our players stay injury free, confidence builds, and Tony Abbott gets ousted we just might sneak into the 8.

The Frost trade was instructive for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I along with a lot of other people on here frankly had kittens when I found out what pick we'd given up to get him and what we got back. But Looking at the result of that trade in terms of how good Frost is plus getting ANB and Oscar McD. It now looks inspired. The big lesson out of that for me is that we now have an Admin that is making good decisions. For the first time in a long time I feel like I can trust their judgement. It's a big step and is starting to translate onto the field. The Tyson/Salem trade last year. Frost, ANB, OMcD this year. Getting McCarthy into the coaching group.

[grazman 6,433]

As I was watching the Lions v Swans game last night and thinking back to the Hawthorn Collingwood game last week I wondered at the differing philosophies of the top clubs coming into the NAB series. Hawks played a very young team, Swans hardly turned up and other top teams have played the youngsters. But Freo basically went in full strength barring injuries as did we.

Did Roos and Lyon agree to this? Why would McPharlin and Pav play? Seemed odd to me and I'm just wondering if Roos asked Ross to really test us. Having said that, I'm not sure why he would.

Yeah, Nah, Maybe.

Ross may help a mate out, but only if it coincides with what his club want to do anyway. Could you imagine what they'd do to him if Pav got injured in a match he wasn't scheduled to play in? Freo have the most players over 29 on their list. The WA clubs have always wanted to reduce the amount of travel their players have to do as it has a substantial affect on their bodies - particularly their recovery. Some claim that it actually shortens players careers. Their next match is on the road against Sydney. Pav and McPharlin won't be making that trip if my theory is correct. I'm not sure what the current thinking is, but I would think most clubs would want all their best 22 to have at least one and preferably two matches leading into rd 1.

Edited March 7, 2015 by grazman

[grazman 6,433]

I hate to burst the bubble but we Lost to Collingwood in the 2012 NAB cup by 20 points and they finished 4th that season, we finished 16th.

We need to be beating these top 4 sides like the Lions to show any type of improvement because these side don't take is seriously.

We didn't kick a goal in 2 out of 4 quarters, we maybe a bit more competitive then last year but we will struggle to get it of the bottom 4.

I'm sceard to get my hopes up untill the real season starts.

And Carlton won a preseason comp and then finished last. Preseason is just match practice. It gives little real indication of how the following season will pan out once premiership points are on the line.

[old dee 22,852]

McKenzie is our Robert Klomp....stopper extraordinaire. Will play a role in 2015 (not for Casey, for all the cheeky wags out there)

Grimes will get better too.

A x captain who is struggling to justify his spot at present.

He would net to fire up soon.

A non dees supporter said to me last night that perhaps Grimes always played this way it is only now that the side is improving that we notice him as ordinary.

He may have always been ordinary it just shows more now

[mo64 5,209]

With favourites and villains which we all have it's very hard to see their games in an unbiased way. Mo64 dislikes players and focuses on their mistakes to prove his point. He never mentions or perhaps sees the good things they do. I reckon Dunn is a very overrated player and I thought he was terrible but I didn't say so and when I watched the game again he did basically what Grimes and McKenzie did. He stopped his opponent and did little else.

That's just not true. Unlike Saty, I have no emotional attachment to any player, hence I don't dislike any player. But if a player isn't playing up to a standard that will help us improve, why wouldn't I point out their shortfalls? I've always liked Grimes and garland, but the fact is their current playing standard will not help us improve. That's just my observation.

You and Saty constantly point out that everyone makes mistakes. That's true, but when the likes of Tyson and N.Jones get involved in the play 20-30 times, a few errors are bound to be made. At training, the likes of Spencer and McKenzie would be barely be involved in 5 acts during match sim, so if they make 1 or 2 basic errors, it should be brought to attention. It's no coincidence that they were the only available senior players on our list who weren't part of the starting line-up against Freo. And yet you and Saty keep telling us how well they're training. The coaches obviously don't agree.

[jumbo returns 6,488]

A x captain who is struggling to justify his spot at present.

He would net to fire up soon.

A non dees supporter said to me last night that perhaps Grimes always played this way it is only now that the side is improving that we notice him as ordinary.

He may have always been ordinary it just shows more now

I think his captaincy was awarded to him for his leadership skills, not necessarily his footy prowess.

Still a required player imho.

[P-man 13,168]

A x captain who is struggling to justify his spot at present.

He would net to fire up soon.

A non dees supporter said to me last night that perhaps Grimes always played this way it is only now that the side is improving that we notice him as ordinary.

He may have always been ordinary it just shows more now

Your non dees supporting mate is wrong. Grimes in 2010, a year in which we weren't total rubbish, was one of our best prospects. He had aggression, speed which he used to full effect, and assuredness with ball in hand. He still has the aggression, but in possession he is a total liability. He is slow, hesitant, and executes poorly. He may get lauded for nullifying an opponent, but is that really now a par performance from him?

His decline has been sad to watch as a supporter, like numerous others. He should have gone on to be twice the player he is now. But Roos appears to be backing him in so let's hope his faith is well placed.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Grimes looks like he has a lot less muscle now than when he did a few years ago which can't help.

Overall, I would say this is a common trend amongst a lot of Melbourne players who don't look strong or toned enough when compared to other teams.

[old dee 22,852]

Grimes looks like he has a lot less muscle now than when he did a few years ago which can't help.

Overall, I would say this is a common trend amongst a lot of Melbourne players who don't look strong or toned enough when compared to other teams.

Paleo CB?

[monoccular 16,064]

One thing I have come to realize is that I will gladly take a couple of Watts lazy efforts a game if it means we will have his foot skills in the side.

We lost to the Dockers because of poor disposal, nothing more, nothing less. Same thing that probably cost us another 5 or 6 wins last season.

But one does need to get the ball however good your disposal may be. I heard this for far too many years re Strauss. Sure JW is a far better talent than JS but he still ends to contribute an all round team effort

The criticism of Tom McDonald is confusing to me

He is an elite one on one defender, has great endurance and decent pace. Yes he sometimes turns the ball over, but the reality is he shouldn't be driving us out of the backline.

He is best 22 every week.

Jaded , the criticism of Mac is invariably confined to one area.....that being of or around his feet. its a valid criticism for mine. So much good work comes undone from poor disposal by many a player. It just hauls the team back to mediocrity.

Would you put money on A Tommy Mac kick ?

I trust youre now less confused !!

FOOTballers do need to be able to kick to be a rounded contributor- see above re JW

Went to the game yesterday and will hold my analysis until I watch the replay on the television. However real question marks on Grimes, Bail and Garland for starting 22?

That trio are certainly fringe players as things stand