Jump to content


Recommended Posts

Posted

Well it is and thats what the AFL and its clubs have signed up for. So get used to it.

No it's not.

As much as you may want it to be, it's not. ASADA still has to prove the case.

The evidence from Charter and Alavi can still be included, they just can't be questioned on it. But as Charters said himself, ASADA have all the evidence from him they need in the form of hard evidence (copies of mails, receipts etc. etc.).

Difficult to see how it changes anything.

There's even the argument presented here (and elsewhere), that in not joining in the Subpoena process, the players have actually weakened their case because of the negative inference that can be drawn.

ASADA was the one asking the court to allow the two of them to appear at the hearing. I think it's fair to say it follows that they wanted them there, and by not having them there, their case must be weakened to some degree. If ASADA can't get its witnesses to show up at court for the purposes of cross-examination, the tribunal may decide to take their evidence with a grain of salt (you would have to to an extent, given you haven't had the chance to see how their stories stand up when questioned).

As for the negative inference, that's not how that rule of law works. They are ASADA witnesses, not the players', so the inference would operate if ASADA decided not to call them (it would mean that the players could say they're not being called because they have nothing useful to add). I don't think anyone thinks those two would be useful for the players' case.

Posted

From the WADA code...

Article 3.1 sets out that it is the anti‐doping organisation which carries the burden of proof to establish that an anti‐doping rule violation has occurred, with the standard of proof being comfortable satisfaction which is then defined as being ‘greater than a mere balance of probability but less than proof beyond a reasonable doubt.’5 Article 3.2 then states that violations ‘may be established by any reliable means’

One relevant evidentiary principle is presumptions. Article 3 of the WADA Code outlines the rebuttable presumption that tests carried out by WADA accredited laboratories are accurate. The reason for such a presumption is to make the evidentiary task easier by effectively redefining the burdens of proof, with the burden of proof then being on the athlete to show that the laboratory results were not accurate. Note that the standard of proof for the athlete trying to rebut this presumption is usually the lower balance of probabilities standard.

Posted (edited)

THE anti-doping watchdog’s star witness has sensationally turned on the agency by holding secret talks with lawyers for the Essendon players.



In a stunning twist, Shane Charter has met Tony Hargreaves to discuss potential weaknesses in the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority’s case against the Bombers.


ASADA v ESSENDON: EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW


CHARTER CAN’T BE FORCED TO TESTIFY


SECRET EMAIL SHOWS ASADA’S JOB LURE



Charter made no apologies, saying: “I am neither ASADA’s witness nor Essendon’s.”


The long-awaited AFL tribunal hearing into allegations 34 current and former Bombers took a banned drug starts today. It will proceed without Charter and another key witness, Nima Alavi, after ASADA lawyers failed to convince the Supreme Court the pair could be subpoenaed.


The pair has given evidence to ASADA but refuses to testify. But in an interview with the Herald Sun, Charter said he did not consider himself an ASADA witness and saw no reason why he should not help the players.


“I’m not ASADA’s witness, I was merely providing information,” he said.


“Tony Hargreaves has had the opportunity to discuss some issues that were unclear and also to clarify the chronology of the peptides ordered.


“There were a number of flaws in ASADA’s case and it was going to be hard for him to fill in the gaps if I wasn’t turning up.”


Charter agreed to speak with the lawyers after he was approached.



Asada did not offer Charters enough it seems


Edited by Satan
Posted
If ASADA can't get its witnesses to show up at court for the purposes of cross-examination, the tribunal may decide to take their evidence with a grain of salt (you would have to to an extent, given you haven't had the chance to see how their stories stand up when questioned).

Do we know for a fact that cross examination is performed at a tribunal hearing?

Don't tribunal members hear evidence from both sides and perform their own questioning?

I guess each tribunal works differently but..........

Posted

Haven't these chaps ever heard of phone taps...

Posted

ASADA was the one asking the court to allow the two of them to appear at the hearing. I think it's fair to say it follows that they wanted them there, and by not having them there, their case must be weakened to some degree.

That's an assumption on your part. From everything I've read, it's irrelevant whether they're there or not. Charters said as much himself. I also feel that the Subpoena was just ASADA covering themselves, dotting i's and crossing t's.

When it comes to sports law, ASADA have access to the best in the business. I know there's this image put around of them being some kind of Keystone Cops, but you only have to look at who's presenting their case at the tribunal to realise that that's far from the reality.

In any case, the main game is Dank, and it will be hard for the players to get around his McKenzie interview/confession. Then there's the players' testimonies that they took "Tymosin", the injection schedules that match the schedule for TB-4, Alavi's forged signature, etc. etc. Rather be in ASADA's shoes than the players.

  • Like 1
Posted

So the secret Drug trials start today.

that about covers it.

No, no Old Dee. You need to get in step with George Brandis's meta-language. It's the secret trial of the secret drug trial.

  • Like 1

Posted

So Charters is now officially as delusional as Dank. Not a complete surprise.

Talk about trying to save one's arze !!

Whole thing becomes more comical by the day , that is to say the supposed reality that EFC , Danks and now Charter ( and I suppose Alavi) is to be found at:

2-4 Dreaming Ave, Toonsville , Nuttyland.

Posted

Why isn't Dank being charged with administering drugs not available for human consumption?Does he actually have a licence for anything?

What does the TGA do?

What about the compounding pharmacist? Does he compound drugs for anyone that asks? Can anyone take him vials of stuff bought from China and have him compound into a form that can be administered?

The whole scenario is shonky and everyone in it as far as I am concerned should be cited. Charter, Alavi, Dank, Reid, Hird....

Its bloody amazing that this thing hasn't been stomped on by the federal govt.

  • Like 7

Posted (edited)

jnr...I seriously suspect there's a much MUCH bigger game surrounding all of this and that the ASADA campaign is a player ( wittingly or otherwise ) in a larger game of chess being played by authorities with much more power and might than tribunals.

I suspect its about waiting for the mice to properly enter traps !! just my hunch , nothing else

Edited by beelzebub
  • Like 1
Posted

Why isn't Dank being charged with administering drugs not available for human consumption?Does he actually have a licence for anything?

What does the TGA do?

What about the compounding pharmacist? Does he compound drugs for anyone that asks? Can anyone take him vials of stuff bought from China and have him compound into a form that can be administered?

The whole scenario is shonky and everyone in it as far as I am concerned should be cited. Charter, Alavi, Dank, Reid, Hird....

Its bloody amazing that this thing hasn't been stomped on by the federal govt.

Good question. In fact, several good questions.

  • Like 1
Posted

So Charters is now officially as delusional as Dank. Not a complete surprise.

Talk about trying to save one's arze !!

Whole thing becomes more comical by the day , that is to say the supposed reality that EFC , Danks and now Charter ( and I suppose Alavi) is to be found at:

2-4 Dreaming Ave, Toonsville , Nuttyland.

Re: Nuttyland . .

I've just discovered something . .

Nostradamus seems to have precognized one or more characters in the current EFC situation!

"The Fool On The (windy) Hill"

Day after day, alone on the hill

The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still

But nobody wants to know him

They can see that he's just a fool

And he never gives an answer

But the fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

lm still working on this one:

Century1, Quatrain 56

You will see, sooner and later, great changes made,

Extreme horrors and vengeances:

For as the moon is thus led by its angel,

The heavens draw near to the reckoning.

Posted

Asada and the previous sports Minister F*&*ed this up completely. No wonder it will go nowhere and the players will not be sanctioned by this "Tribunal"

AFL are desperatley seeking a way out. The rest is all air and wind for consumption out in Noddyland and the Lawyers as usual are making a motsa of money

Posted

Charters would have no clue beyond what he has told them

Posted

So it is almost the lunch break time in the AFL inquiry.

Anyone heard any news.

Oh sorry that's right it is being held in secret!

Posted

So it is almost the lunch break time in the AFL inquiry.

Anyone heard any news.

Oh sorry that's right it is being held in secret!

that should stop the hun or the rage finding something outrageous and sensationalist to report, od

Posted

Re: Nuttyland . .

I've just discovered something . .

Nostradamus seems to have precognized one or more characters in the current EFC situation!

"The Fool On The (windy) Hill"

Day after day, alone on the hill

The man with the foolish grin is keeping perfectly still

But nobody wants to know him

They can see that he's just a fool

And he never gives an answer

But the fool on the hill

Sees the sun going down

And the eyes in his head

See the world spinning around

lm still working on this one:

Century1, Quatrain 56

You will see, sooner and later, great changes made,

Extreme horrors and vengeances:

For as the moon is thus led by its angel,

The heavens draw near to the reckoning.

I think that is from some other visionaries LennosMcCartridamus

And they predicted James Turd was the fool on from Windy Hill, well done.


Posted

that should stop the hun or the rage finding something outrageous and sensationalist to report, od

Since when has lack of information ever stopped the Media from creating an story dc?

  • Like 1

Posted

What I am waiting patiently for is.

After all the wigs have gone through their verbal diahrea of opening speeches.

They then call up the 34 players and are asked player 1. You have been charged with injecting TB-4

How do you plead. ....... Guilty your honour.!!!! LOL

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

jnr...I seriously suspect there's a much MUCH bigger game surrounding all of this and that the ASADA campaign is a player ( wittingly or otherwise ) in a larger game of chess being played by authorities with much more power and might than tribunals.

I suspect its about waiting for the mice to properly enter traps !! just my hunch , nothing else

Bloody hope you're right, Mr B - I've got an unpleasant feeling about all of this. Secret tribunals, hidden medical records, packs of lawyers, an AFL desperate to keep the moolah rolling in. Did I hear, in my semi-sleepy state this morning, some politician calling for Asada to be investigated?

If the Druggies are innocent, and can prove it, i don't mind em getting off. But if they've buried the evidence and hired legal hacks to look for technicalities to keep it hidden, I'll be spewing (apologies - my usual eloquence has deserted me).

Will never be able to watch Jobe and his rotten Charlie. The greatest honour our game can give, and they gave it to a feller who was on the gear.

Edited by Jara

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    TRAINING: Friday 22nd November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers were out in force on a scorching morning out at Gosch's Paddock for the final session before the whole squad reunites for the Preseason Training Camp. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS It’s going to be a scorcher today but I’m in the shade at Gosch’s Paddock ready to bring you some observations from the final session before the Preseason Training Camp next week.  Salem, Fritsch & Campbell are already on the track. Still no number on Campbell’s

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports 3

    UP IN LIGHTS by Whispering Jack

    Those who watched the 2024 Marsh AFL National Championships closely this year would not be particularly surprised that Melbourne selected Victoria Country pair Harvey Langford and Xavier Lindsay on the first night of the AFL National Draft. The two left-footed midfielders are as different as chalk and cheese but they had similar impacts in their Coates Talent League teams and in the National Championships in 2024. Their interstate side was edged out at the very end of the tournament for tea

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features

    TRAINING: Wednesday 20th November 2024

    It’s a beautiful cool morning down at Gosch’s Paddock and I’ve arrived early to bring you my observations from today’s session. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Reigning Keith Bluey Truscott champion Jack Viney is the first one out on the track.  Jack’s wearing the red version of the new training guernsey which is the only version available for sale at the Demon Shop. TRAINING: Viney, Clarry, Lever, TMac, Rivers, Petty, McVee, Bowey, JVR, Hore, Tom Campbell (in tr

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    TRAINING: Monday 18th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers ventured down to Gosch's Paddock for the final week of training for the 1st to 4th Years until they are joined by the rest of the senior squad for Preseason Training Camp in Mansfield next week. WAYNE RUSSELL'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS No Ollie, Chin, Riv today, but Rick & Spargs turned up and McDonald was there in casual attire. Seston, and Howes did a lot of boundary running, and Tom Campbell continued his work with individual trainer in non-MFC

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #11 Max Gawn

    Champion ruckman and brilliant leader, Max Gawn earned his seventh All-Australian team blazer and constantly held the team up on his shoulders in what was truly a difficult season for the Demons. Date of Birth: 30 December 1991 Height: 209cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 224 Goals MFC 2024: 11 Career Total: 109 Brownlow Medal Votes: 13 Melbourne Football Club: 2nd Best & Fairest: 405 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 12

    2024 Player Reviews: #36 Kysaiah Pickett

    The Demons’ aggressive small forward who kicks goals and defends the Demons’ ball in the forward arc. When he’s on song, he’s unstoppable but he did blot his copybook with a three week suspension in the final round. Date of Birth: 2 June 2001 Height: 171cm Games MFC 2024: 21 Career Total: 106 Goals MFC 2024: 36 Career Total: 161 Brownlow Medal Votes: 3 Melbourne Football Club: 4th Best & Fairest: 369 votes

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 5

    TRAINING: Friday 15th November 2024

    Demonland Trackwatchers took advantage of the beautiful sunshine to head down to Gosch's Paddock and witness the return of Clayton Oliver to club for his first session in the lead up to the 2025 season. DEMONLAND'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS Clarry in the house!! Training: JVR, McVee, Windsor, Tholstrup, Woey, Brown, Petty, Adams, Chandler, Turner, Bowey, Seston, Kentfield, Laurie, Sparrow, Viney, Rivers, Jefferson, Hore, Howes, Verrall, AMW, Clarry Tom Campbell is here

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports

    2024 Player Reviews: #7 Jack Viney

    The tough on baller won his second Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Trophy in a narrow battle with skipper Max Gawn and Alex Neal-Bullen and battled on manfully in the face of a number of injury niggles. Date of Birth: 13 April 1994 Height: 178cm Games MFC 2024: 23 Career Total: 219 Goals MFC 2024: 10 Career Total: 66 Brownlow Medal Votes: 8

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 3

    TRAINING: Wednesday 13th November 2024

    A couple of Demonland Trackwatchers braved the rain and headed down to Gosch's paddock to bring you their observations from the second day of Preseason training for the 1st to 4th Year players. DITCHA'S PRESEASON TRAINING OBSERVATIONS I attended some of the training today. Richo spoke to me and said not to believe what is in the media, as we will good this year. Jefferson and Kentfield looked big and strong.  Petty was doing all the training. Adams looked like he was in rehab.  KE

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Training Reports
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...