Patrick McCartin

[DeeSpencer 24,683]

The problem is that unless our midfield drastically improves its supply & delivery to the forward line, Hogan & Mc.Cartin aren't going to make much of a difference.

To kick winning scores, we first have to improve supply from the midfield, and then work out if our forward structures & personnel are right.

Good forwards improve supply though. Only have to look at the difference between our first 3 games and when Dawes and Frawley worked well in tandem against Carlton in round 4.

Especially with the Roos game plan pushing numbers back behind the ball will mean we have to kick to 1 on 1's in the forward half. It's much easier for midfeilders and backmen to be confident in attacking the game and moving the ball forward faster if they have forwards who will win more than they lose of the contests.

[Akum 2,660]

Good forwards improve supply though. Only have to look at the difference between our first 3 games and when Dawes and Frawley worked well in tandem against Carlton in round 4.

Especially with the Roos game plan pushing numbers back behind the ball will mean we have to kick to 1 on 1's in the forward half. It's much easier for midfeilders and backmen to be confident in attacking the game and moving the ball forward faster if they have forwards who will win more than they lose of the contests.

So ... getting Mc.Cartin will improve our midfield?? Will give us 20 more i50s per game??

[jabberwocky 2,301]

So ... getting Mc.Cartin will improve our midfield?? Will give us 20 more i50s per game??

Actually I think having a forward line with genuine marking targets and crumbers for that matter will increase the inside 50 count. We held on to the footy for too long in 2015 and too often largely because we were impotent much of the time. There was not a lot confidence in the forwards. A full forward line of Hogan, Garlett and Howe I expect would probably equate to quicker and deeper entries.

That said I am not sure that McCartin is the right fit.

[Willmoy1947 3,957]

Any suggestions on who will be Melbourne's Crowley because we will need one.

The new ex Footscray coach will ensure that we have one similar to the Footscray structure from 2014 thus freeing up on ballers freedom

[Lucifers Hero 38,940]

Any suggestions on who will be Melbourne's Crowley because we will need one.

The new ex Footscray coach will ensure that we have one similar to the Footscray structure from 2014 thus freeing up on ballers freedom

Pigdog!

[Wrecker45 3,378]

So ... getting Mc.Cartin will improve our midfield?? Will give us 20 more i50s per game??

It is not about one at the expense of the other (midfielder or forward). That is like those simpletons who argue for trains not roads. We need to improve all areas and use our resources as best we can to do that. Let's take best available and find a fix for the other problem in the most cost effective way.

At the moment Roos seems to be going about getting midfielders without giving away much. Think Tyson (gun) and Michie, Pig Dog & Newton (albeit not yet proven). We will need to give away a lot more in the future to get a decent forward.

[Deecisive 1,709]

So ... getting Mc.Cartin will improve our midfield?? Will give us 20 more i50s per game??

i lost count on how many times our players last year had the chance to kick it inside 50 but went backwards or sideways and then lost it. Also we had a massive number of failed 50 entries because we had no forwards there. Improving our forward line will provide multiple credible targets that players can kick to, it also gives us another marking tall who can kick from outside the 50 meters arc giving us better range as well. The game is about getting the score on the board, having one more mid is of no value if the joint output of all of our mids has no one up forwards able to convert their output into reasonable score.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

How many times have we seen a MFC player with the ball look to the F50, see no one and then go sideways, until the ball is turned over?

If Hogan is injured and Dawes is one out, we are stuffed every time. We certainly kicked some great scores this year of 2-3 goals, even though we had plenty of the ball.

What does that tell you?

A forward line encourages the ball carriers to move it forward quickly, towards the goal.That allows the forwards to be free, or one on one, with the best chance to score.

Yes we need mids and we have some, but we need a very good forward even more.

i lost count on how many times our players last year had the chance to kick it inside 50 but went backwards or sideways and then lost it. Also we had a massive number of failed 50 entries because we had no forwards there. Improving our forward line will provide multiple credible targets that players can kick to, it also gives us another marking tall who can kick from outside the 50 meters arc giving us better range as well. The game is about getting the score on the board, having one more mid is of no value if the joint output of all of our mids has no one up forwards able to convert their output into reasonable score.

I just can't agree with this when the evidence is so blindingly obvious.

It is absolutely universally known amongst the footballing world that we are the team with the worst midfield. We are the team with the least amount of skill and depth in regards to our midfield and we have little skill coming off our halfback-line.

By skill, I mean footskills.

You cannot match teams in contested possession during a game but lose the inside 50 count by 15-20 and believe that it's purely because our mids have nothing to kick to.

It is a fact that we have players who have below average skill and decision making skills that play throughout our midfield and backline. These blokes either turn the ball over, or don't have the confidence to hit up easily visibly leading targets because they simply don't have the skill. That is the number one reason we take so [censored] long to move the ball from our back-half to our forwad-line. Roos has also introduced an *actual* game plan meaning that he expects us to hold onto the ball and spot up free leading targets rather than Neeld's 'bombing down the line' approach.

It is clear when we get the ball in the hands of blokes who can actually kick like Watts and Vince that we have no trouble getting the ball moving forward and being able to penetrate our forward-line effectively.

Look at any successful team's midfield. Look at their skill level. Look at how much more functional the forward-line looks when they have players who can execute the most important skill required to play the game.

We need to draft two mids who can see ball, win ball and kick ball and do all of those three things well.

Adding another KPF is the cherry. Hogan, Dawes, Pederson with Gawn rotating will do just fine for 2015.

[rjay 24,577]

I just can't agree with this when the evidence is so blindingly obvious.

It is absolutely universally known amongst the footballing world that we are the team with the worst midfield. We are the team with the least amount of skill and depth in regards to our midfield and we have little skill coming off our halfback-line.

By skill, I mean footskills.

You cannot match teams in contested possession during a game but lose the inside 50 count by 15-20 and believe that it's purely because our mids have nothing to kick to.

It is a fact that we have players who have below average skill and decision making skills that play throughout our midfield and backline. These blokes either turn the ball over, or don't have the confidence to hit up easily visibly leading targets because they simply don't have the skill. That is the number one reason we take so [censored] long to move the ball from our back-half to our forwad-line. Roos has also introduced an *actual* game plan meaning that he expects us to hold onto the ball and spot up free leading targets rather than Neeld's 'bombing down the line' approach.

It is clear when we get the ball in the hands of blokes who can actually kick like Watts and Vince that we have no trouble getting the ball moving forward and being able to penetrate our forward-line effectively.

Look at any successful team's midfield. Look at their skill level. Look at how much more functional the forward-line looks when they have players who can execute the most important skill required to play the game.

We need to draft two mids who can see ball, win ball and kick ball and do all of those three things well.

Adding another KPF is the cherry. Hogan, Dawes, Pederson with Gawn rotating will do just fine for 2015.

It's not black & white 'steve'.

...and in the forwards you've named only one is worth much chop and he hasn't played a game yet.

[rpfc 28,045]

It's not black & white 'steve'.

...and in the forwards you've named only one is worth much chop and he hasn't played a game yet.

Can I just say that when you put actual names in inverted commas it doesn't read well.

[manny100 1,387]

I think a gun KPF or 2 straightens the mids and running defenders up. Gives them a target. Gives them some confidence that their efforts will be rewarded and the ball will not come straight back over their heads etc.

Ordinary forwards make good disposal look ordinary and gun forwards can make up a fair bit for ordinary disposal.

All in all gun forwards make more out of their chances and make the mids look better. They also make the distributors more satisfied with their lot.

Gun forwards and gun mids in the same team.................................... that's what we want!!!

Edited November 5, 2014 by manny100

[Members' Wing 1,106]

I just can't agree with this when the evidence is so blindingly obvious.

It is absolutely universally known amongst the footballing world that we are the team with the worst midfield. We are the team with the least amount of skill and depth in regards to our midfield and we have little skill coming off our halfback-line.

By skill, I mean footskills.

You cannot match teams in contested possession during a game but lose the inside 50 count by 15-20 and believe that it's purely because our mids have nothing to kick to.

It is a fact that we have players who have below average skill and decision making skills that play throughout our midfield and backline. These blokes either turn the ball over, or don't have the confidence to hit up easily visibly leading targets because they simply don't have the skill. That is the number one reason we take so [censored] long to move the ball from our back-half to our forwad-line. Roos has also introduced an *actual* game plan meaning that he expects us to hold onto the ball and spot up free leading targets rather than Neeld's 'bombing down the line' approach.

It is clear when we get the ball in the hands of blokes who can actually kick like Watts and Vince that we have no trouble getting the ball moving forward and being able to penetrate our forward-line effectively.

Look at any successful team's midfield. Look at their skill level. Look at how much more functional the forward-line looks when they have players who can execute the most important skill required to play the game.

We need to draft two mids who can see ball, win ball and kick ball and do all of those three things well.

Adding another KPF is the cherry. Hogan, Dawes, Pederson with Gawn rotating will do just fine for 2015.

But will it really? The most goals any of those players you've mentioned has kicked in a single season is Dawes with 30 in 2010. Incredibly depressing statistic that. We need quality mids yes but we're just as short on quality forwards now that Clark has left.

[PaulRB 6,297]

[chook fowler 19,248]

But will it really? The most goals any of those players you've mentioned has kicked in a single season is Dawes with 30 in 2010. Incredibly depressing statistic that. We need quality mids yes but we're just as short on quality forwards now that Clark has left.

I refuse to associate the adjective quality with Clark

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,421]

A good mate of mine who's son plays for the Western Jets says we should stay away from Brayshaw and McCartin.

He sees a lot of them and reckons they are both too slow, and have very good players around them who give it to them a lot.

He believes Petracca and Wright are the pick of the bunch, then Laverde and Lever.

He said Wright was very good in a terrible team , who's skills were poor and even though they didn't kick it to him properly he still found plenty of the ball for a big man and is a marking machine.

i dont doubt what you say but these opinions differ from what ive been told from several people.

brayshaw isnt slow. You coukd argue that petracxa while highly talented may look better now playing kids half his size muscle-wise. My tac cup contacts all tell me and i agree that brayshaw and laverde seem to exhibit the types of talent that cpuld make them the picks of this draft.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,421]

Fyfe was not drafted as a midfielder. It tyrned out ok.

Roos has said he doesnt draft talls.

it is expected that Petracca will go pick one.

I am told we have firm interest in lever and laverde for pick 3. Source called hogan contract extension offer way before the media and luke shuey pursuit before it was in media.

[Deemotivated 550]

The only reason I'd go after McCartin is insurance for the possibility of Hogan naming his price and pissing off home to Freo.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Deemotivated

[Pennant St Dee 12,645]

Fyfe was not drafted as a midfielder. It tyrned out ok.

Roos has said he doesnt draft talls.

it is expected that Petracca will go pick one.

I am told we have firm interest in lever and laverde for pick 3. Source called hogan contract extension offer way before the media and luke shuey pursuit before it was in media.

This is actually incorrect and this is fact

Fyfe played as a forward with Claremont colts and showed a bit and at the time Mark Harvey seen changes in footy and was heading down the track of having a big bodied midfield.

He had moved Mundy into the midfield targeted Barlow because of his size, looked at giving Mayne and DeBoer more midfield time and really set their goal at getting a strong midfield who would stand up in finals footy.

When the recruiters came to him advising they were looking at Fyfe his main question was can we build a tank with him and can he play in our midfield. That is the only question he wanted answered because he knew he was a competitive beast and had the ability to win contests.

So Fyfe was drafted purely and solely with an eye to being a midfielder, had they not believed he could have built a tank they would have passed him over for someone else

[binman 41,929]

I'm with Steve the man on this. This is one draft where we will pick for need not the best available. Top teams have 10-12 mids (and 5-6 of these are guns). We have are desperate for more good mids and I would be shocked if we don't use both picks 2 and 3 on mids

Edited November 5, 2014 by binman

[Dees2014 2,377]

nay different players, different roles.

peders is a genuine swingman & pinch in the ruck "jack of all trades" his bonus is his athleticism & will rough it up a bit.

Fitzy has X factor, speed, athleticism, can mark, can lead, can ruck... but has to find belief in himself, to get these skills going. has he the desire? we have to give him a bit more time to see.

And I think we are. I trust Roos and co. to look in the long term. Big guys take time to develop and he has shown enough that he will develop into something significant. Think Jolley, the Russian etc, except Fitz has genuine speed and is a fine kick for goal. His marking could be better, as could his consistency and intensity, but he shows considerable long term promise and I for one are happy we are persisting with him.

[Dees2014 2,377]

It is not about one at the expense of the other (midfielder or forward). That is like those simpletons who argue for trains not roads. We need to improve all areas and use our resources as best we can to do that. Let's take best available and find a fix for the other problem in the most cost effective way.

At the moment Roos seems to be going about getting midfielders without giving away much. Think Tyson (gun) and Michie, Pig Dog & Newton (albeit not yet proven). We will need to give away a lot more in the future to get a decent forward.

Or argue for roads not trains - like Tony Abbott except he banned all federal spending on trains, but I won't go there.....

I think the point here is that power forwards are gold and the good MFC sides have had them in spades. Think Lyon, Schwartz, Neitz. These guys got us consistently into the finals. To forego this opportunity in my view would be stupid, but Demoneyes might be right. I fear he is, but I think we would regret it, like we have with Nicnat, Darling, Wines etc etc

[nutbean 8,838]

So what would you do?

Take a mid you rated between 5 and 10 or take the bloke you rated 3?

I'd take the bloke I rated 3.

And go back through the history -it will show you that in every draft over the last 10 years that some blokes who the experts rated top 5 have been meh and blokes who the experts rated 5-10 have proven to be the pick of the bunch.

I agree that you take the bloke who you rate top 3 - I will taken any money right now that in 4 years time Petracca at one , Brayshaw at two, McCartin at three, Wright at four ( the so called "experts" ratings) will not be the way they are rated retrospectively.

[nutbean 8,838]

The only reason I'd go after McCartin is insurance for the possibility of Hogan naming his price and pissing off home to Freo.

I am amused when I see this. Exactly how will he name his price and get to Freo ?

Unless you are a free agent you have two options when your contract runs out.

1/ Get to Freo by the MFC trading him which I would suspect if he comes on would be for a huge return so you wouldn't need insurance

2/ He becomes uncontracted and wants out - worse case scenario is we don't play ball and then he goes into the PSD - and takes pot luck that he wont get picked up by a club lower on the ladder than a WA club.

For non FA's there is not movement to your club of choice unless your current club allows it.

[nutbean 8,838]

Good forwards improve supply though. Only have to look at the difference between our first 3 games and when Dawes and Frawley worked well in tandem against Carlton in round 4.

Especially with the Roos game plan pushing numbers back behind the ball will mean we have to kick to 1 on 1's in the forward half. It's much easier for midfeilders and backmen to be confident in attacking the game and moving the ball forward faster if they have forwards who will win more than they lose of the contests.

Arguing against yourself - Against Carlton we had 45 inside 50's - a long way short of the top teams ( and the mid range teams) - we didn't get the ball in more often that day - the volume of supply didn't improve - the QUALITY of the supply and the CONVERSION improved.

I don't care how many forwards you have - if you don't get the ball in they are not going to get it.

The one disclaimer is Roos himself admitted that he needed to teach the team not to leak as many goals and we were far better this year but that came at the expense of attack and Roos suggested the team needs a better balance between attack and defense - so the unanswered question is - will tweaking the game plan by itself mean more inside 50's or is the current midfield incapable of lifting that number ?

[CBDees 3,165]

Or argue for roads not trains - like Tony Abbott except he banned all federal spending on trains, but I won't go there.....

I think the point here is that power forwards are gold and the good MFC sides have had them in spades. Think Lyon, Schwartz, Neitz. These guys got us consistently into the finals. To forego this opportunity in my view would be stupid, but Demoneyes might be right. I fear he is, but I think we would regret it, like we have with Nicnat, Darling, Wines etc etc

We are still going on with the NicNat vs Watts debate however if you look at this year's Best and Fairest count for West Coast and the MFC you will see that they have polled remarkably evenly in the voting at their respective Club's with Jack actually polling more votes than Nic despite being one place lower overall.

Melbourne - Keith 'Bluey' Truscott Medal

10. Jack Watts - 185 votes

West Coast - John Worsfold Medal

9. Nic Naitanui - 103 votes

Edited November 5, 2014 by CBDees