Changes for Round 7 vs Adelaide

[Deez 298]

Controversial to drop Chris Dawes?

Out: Dawes, Bail, Byrnes

In: Fitz, Kent, Blease

Can someone who has access to deep stats please tell me how many times the ball was kicked to Chris Dawes and how many times that resulted in a gain to Sydney? He demands the ball and then doesn't win it. Frawley should be the number one target till J Hogan is in. Pederson is far better at the moment as well. Time to try out another forward again, like Fitz.

Before anyone blathers on about Dawes' leadership and verbal abilities, just look at how many goals we scored. Time to restructure again and bring in goal kickers blease, kent and fitz.

Dawes was just heavily manned dude, sydney knew he was dangerous given space, so most contests he competed in were a 2 on 1.

he does quite well in those situations as well, usually can bring it to ground, and get it to the boundary.

Fitz needs to prove himself at vfl level first. he's been quiet.

The team is starting to work each other out, its evident in our structures and ball movement.

They just need more time together.

gotta remember we replaced 2/3 of the list in the last 2 years. takes time to become a well oiled unit, particularly for the dees.

[ManDee 7,091]

A Ruckman at full forward does not work anymore in todays game they are two slow unable to provide defensive pressure.

Riley Still don't think he is up to it.

I actually think Byrnes offers more than Mckenzie.

Ruckmen at full forward - Mitch Clark - David Hale - Kurt Tippett - Jonathon Giles - Jarryd Roughead - Ty Vickery V Melbournes forwards this year our best Chris Dawes & Shannon Byrnes on 5 that's 77th in the AFL and Jack Watts on 4

McKenzie best at Casey, Riley and Gawn among the best. Reward effort.

2014 Peter Jackson VFL

Casey Scorpions 0.0 1.5 3.7 5.9 (39)

Sandringham 3.4 7.5 13.7 14.13 (97)

GOALS:

Casey Scorpions: Best 2 Davis Ferraro Blease

Sandringham: Dennis-Lane 3 Weller 2 Dunell 2 Acres Murdoch Banfield Cook Milera Minchington Markworth

BEST:

Casey Scorpions: McKenzie Nicholson Gawn Panozza Riley Evans

Sandringham: Simpkin Markworth Roberton Dunell Cockie Acres

[old dee 22,946]

Worked fine for Sydney against us. Works fine for Hawthorn every week. Works well for Geelong.

As a young side playing young forwards like JKH and Salem I'd rather not play 2 lumbering rucks. But if the choice is between Gawn and Pedersen I'd go for Gawn. He actually can take a grab forward unlike Pedersen who really struggles to impact at all when forward. Plus he requires a genuine tall defender.

Pedersen can then go back to his best position as a tall defender and Dunn or Georgiou can play as medium defenders freeing up Terlich and Grimes to hopefully run more at half back. Dunn or Georgiou playing smaller then replace Jetta who whilst an ok defender is no better than those guys and will always be limited for height. That way I hope we get more intercept marks and rebound from the back 50.

IMO they don't have two lumbers like Gawn and Jamar.

However if ever Roos was thinking about it then it could be this weekend.

I actually don't think there will be any changes unless injuries or suspensions force them.

Pedersen has surprised me this year if only Watts put in his effort.

[old dee 22,946]

Ruckmen at full forward - Mitch Clark - David Hale - Kurt Tippett - Jonathon Giles - Jarryd Roughead - Ty Vickery V Melbournes forwards this year our best Chris Dawes & Shannon Byrnes on 5 that's 77th in the AFL and Jack Watts on 4

McKenzie best at Casey, Riley and Gawn among the best. Reward effort.

2014 Peter Jackson VFL

Casey Scorpions 0.0 1.5 3.7 5.9 (39)

Sandringham 3.4 7.5 13.7 14.13 (97)

GOALS:

Casey Scorpions: Best 2 Davis Ferraro Blease

Sandringham: Dennis-Lane 3 Weller 2 Dunell 2 Acres Murdoch Banfield Cook Milera Minchington Markworth

BEST:

Casey Scorpions: McKenzie Nicholson Gawn Panozza Riley Evans

Sandringham: Simpkin Markworth Roberton Dunell Cockie Acres

These are tall forwards with ruck ability not the other way round.

They also have three times the forward skill of either Jamar or Gawn.

Sorry ten times the skill of Jamar and five times the skill of Gawn.

[FarNorthernD 5,848]

No change

No Casey player putting hand up and Roos would rather keep same side playing

[Deecisive 1,658]

I dont mind the idea of gawn at ff, he is relative mobile and can provide a bit of a contest down forward, we obviously need crumbers around him as he is not likely to be taking a lot of marks. Adelaide will need to play a tall defender on him or risk him standing in the goal square and taking marks. Watts and Howe have to play and play well. it is not so much for this weeks when we play the bulldogs and tigers two of the few games we have a chance to win, so this weeks game should be seen as an audition for that game fail to deliver and its back to the VFL. Riley against his old team and working with Vince would be worth a try, he has shown he is hard at the ball and that will take some pressure off jones, viney, cross, vince and tyson. I would like to see midfielders rested in the forward line to provide improved crumbing option at the back with salem and frawley at the front with dawes.

[ManDee 7,091]

These are tall forwards with ruck ability not the other way round.

They also have three times the forward skill of either Jamar or Gawn.

Sorry ten times the skill of Jamar and five times the skill of Gawn.

Mitch Clark was drafted as a ruckman by Brisbane, rested forward. Almost AA. Giles is a ruckman. Tippet was drafted as a ruckman he was a lousy kick (basketballer). David Hale also a ruckman tried forward did not muscle up enough.. So some players can and do do both. Gawn will.

Dawes, Gawn, Frawley, Salem, JKH sounds OK to me. Speed, strength, chase, skill & grunt, might just work. Man up on that Adelaide.

[old dee 22,946]

Mitch Clark was drafted as a ruckman by Brisbane, rested forward. Almost AA. Giles is a ruckman. Tippet was drafted as a ruckman he was a lousy kick (basketballer). David Hale also a ruckman tried forward did not muscle up enough.. So some players can and do do both. Gawn will.

Dawes, Gawn, Frawley, Salem, JKH sounds OK to me. Speed, strength, chase, skill & grunt, might just work. Man up on that Adelaide.

Clearly we are not going to agree ManDee.

Go Dees

[mauriesy 6,819]

Read my entire post (which was posted about 10hrs before Casey played) and don't cut and paste in isolation, I have Garland coming in as another defender, as I also said can't fault Terlich's endeavour but his turnovers are hurting us.

I cut and pasted to show that some here simply want to drop Terlich and include Clisby, based solely on Terlich's three 'clangers'. The fact that they want to drop Terlich and include Clisby before he'd even played for Casey makes it worse, not better.

Maybe people here need reminding that even though he's older, Terlich has played the grand total of 26 games and is still very much learning.

As are Viney, Tyson, Michie, Matt Jones, Hogan, Salem, Toumpas, Kennedy-Harris, Kent, Riley and Clisby (all in the 0-30 range).

We simply haven't got the 'Sydney-Geelong-Hawthorn-Collingwood games-played' spread (Sydney had 14 players over 150 games, for example). I'm not sure what everyone expects, but it seems to be very unrealistic.

[Pennant St Dee 11,351]

Agree PSD it is just a pity he has below average disposal

Sorry to say old dee until our list improves players like this are required

[Pennant St Dee 11,351]

I cut and pasted to show that some here simply want to drop Terlich and include Clisby, based solely on Terlich's three 'clangers'. The fact that they want to drop Terlich and include Clisby before he'd even played for Casey makes it worse, not better.

Maybe people here need reminding that even though he's older, Terlich has played the grand total of 26 games and is still very much learning.

As are Viney, Tyson, Michie, Matt Jones, Hogan, Salem, Toumpas, Kennedy-Harris, Kent, Riley and Clisby (all in the 0-30 range).

We simply haven't got the 'Sydney-Geelong-Hawthorn-Collingwood games-played' spread (Sydney had 14 players over 150 games, for example). I'm not sure what everyone expects, but it seems to be very unrealistic.

I actually love Terlich's endeavour and I know he is inexperienced but I feel we may need to look at players coming off the HBF with good disposal. I am not adverse in Terlich being given occasional runs through the middle, see a lot of Shane Tuck in the way he goes about things and he loves a contest

[dimmy 1,140]

Joking about Dawes aren't we.

Leave the Forward line alone, just get people to kick it to them properly. Decision making !!!!!

I honestly thought that Watts would have been brilliant in that role, but he is not presenting well enough. Likewise with Toumpas and Trengrove, but they are not in the side.

At times (very few) we worked the ball really well on Saturday . We are getting VG at stopping scoring, we just need to rebound and that takes intelligent running.

Keep Byrnes as a sub.

[ManDee 7,091]

Clearly we are not going to agree ManDee.

Go Dees

Most of the 2 meter plus guys played in the ruck in junior years. I think we probably do agree. Early on as forwards they were ordinary but they developed and other than Giles become better forwards than rucks. I think Gawn can be both, Fitzy too but more a forward. Too early to tell with King. Jamar's hands have turned to wood but could still be a handy decoy. We clearly agree on the chant, Go Dees.

[titan_uranus 22,585]

What exactly did Clisby or Strauss do on Sunday at Casey that justifies them replacing Terlich in Melbourne's backline?

Terlich had 3 'clangers' on Saturday night (behind Viney with 6 and equal with Pedersen, Dunn and Matt Jones, all with 3). However, overall he had 16 possessions, with a DE of 81.2% (ranked 3rd). He also had 8 marks (ranked 2nd) and 6 tackles (ranked 4th).

Supporters let 'clangers' cloud their judgement about players, probably because when they happen they are so prominent. The rest of the work he does, which is most of it, is very good and I doubt Roos will want him dropped, including for the example he sets.

I'm with you on the idea that there is no replacement for Terlich putting their hand up at Casey.

However, I think we all notice Terlich's errors more than others' because his seem to invariably come at crucial times and with disastrous results. His clangers stand out to me because they're often made under no pressure, in the back half (which is more harmful than the front half), and often (IMO, at least) lead to goals or shots on goal.

Despite all that, Saturday was not Terlich's worst game, and we have others who are below him.

I'm not sold on Dean though, and I think he has a lot of work to do to make it.

As an aside, I don't like the DE stat because I don't think it accurately measures anything, but the stats are surprising indeed. What I'll say about them is that if Terlich is going at 81%, our other players have a lot of work to do.

Controversial to drop Chris Dawes?

Out: Dawes, Bail, Byrnes

In: Fitz, Kent, Blease

Can someone who has access to deep stats please tell me how many times the ball was kicked to Chris Dawes and how many times that resulted in a gain to Sydney? He demands the ball and then doesn't win it. Frawley should be the number one target till J Hogan is in. Pederson is far better at the moment as well. Time to try out another forward again, like Fitz.

Before anyone blathers on about Dawes' leadership and verbal abilities, just look at how many goals we scored. Time to restructure again and bring in goal kickers blease, kent and fitz.

Good on you for having the balls to say that, but...no.

Not only is Dawes one of our best, and one of our first to be picked, but you're offering Fitzpatrick and Blease as replacements. One won't defend, the other can hardly mark.

[Deecisive 1,658]

Roos on the news stating that Jacks spot is safe.

[JackVineyForPresident 310]

I'd love to see some of Riley, Blease and Clisby..

It'd be great to see some or one of them

[DemonOX 8,541]

Would like to c Gawn (Now that Garland is injured), Riley and Kent in.

Out Byrnes bail and Jetta

Edited April 28, 2014 by DemonOX

[SaberFang 7,141]

Roos said Garland's injury wasn't too serious in his presser today. I'm still hopeful Riley gets in but it sounds like nobody impressed yesterday.

Toump is probably still suffering side effects from his concussion.

[Pitchy 196]

Dawes was just heavily manned dude, sydney knew he was dangerous given space, so most contests he competed in were a 2 on 1.

he does quite well in those situations as well, usually can bring it to ground, and get it to the boundary.

Fitz needs to prove himself at vfl level first. he's been quiet.

The team is starting to work each other out, its evident in our structures and ball movement.

They just need more time together.

gotta remember we replaced 2/3 of the list in the last 2 years. takes time to become a well oiled unit, particularly for the dees.

These are good points. Dawes does present well and was a focus for the defenders, and Fitz is hardly kicking bags at Casey. So a reprieve for this week, but he has a lot to prove in my eyes. Especially now that Frawley and Pedo have raced past him in effectiveness.

And finally, those who think Dawes (8 touches, 3 marks) played better than Jack Watts on Sat are kidding themselves. Don't ask for his Jack's head and create more media pressure. Sure he looked a little lost but he is very much part of what we are putting together and will definitely come good.

[Deez 298]

These are good points. Dawes does present well and was a focus for the defenders, and Fitz is hardly kicking bags at Casey. So a reprieve for this week, but he has a lot to prove in my eyes. Especially now that Frawley and Pedo have raced past him in effectiveness.

And finally, those who think Dawes (8 touches, 3 marks) played better than Jack Watts on Sat are kidding themselves. Don't ask for his Jack's head and create more media pressure. Sure he looked a little lost but he is very much part of what we are putting together and will definitely come good.

i don't know about watts performing better than dawes. I can see based on stats, watts got more of the ball etc.

its the lack of pressure and running when its most needed thats got every bodies undies caught up.

Dawes is constantly running and applying pressure even if its only perceived pressure and if he's not actually tackling he is runnig at the man with the intent to tackle and to apply pressure. thats what its all about.

Im willing to see watts in adelaide, however if there is still a lack of defensive efforts, its back to vfl until he can learn to run and tackle all game.

if that doesn't occur then i don't know, maybe jack isn't cut out for it. I do believe he can do it, he needs to want to do it though.

[Undeeterred 2,874]

I'm a Watts lover, but bloody hell he is making it hard for me to continually defend him.

If he were to remain in the team this week, which I personnaly don't think he or Howe should, I would have him play 30-40% of the game in the ruck. He's got a leap, he's got height, he's got the smart "touch" where he can put the ball to the advantage of a teammate.

Will it open him up for potential injury? No, I don't believe so, and even if you do, what's the worst that can happen in a ruck contest that couldn't happen in any other contest around a ground?

Playing ruck demands physical contact, there's nowhere to hide, you have to hit bodies and wrestle, and most importantly for Jack, your body will get hit and you will be wrestled against.

If Cam Pederson can prove to be an effective 2nd ruck, then I'm sure Watts can. I know who I rate higher out of those two, although the gap is fast diminishing.

What's the point in doing this? He's already been thrown into basically all 17 other roles on the ground and he'd get smashed. Why humiliate him?

[jackaub 1,402]

So typical - last week Goodes and this week Walker.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-04-28/tex-confident-of-afl-return

Hope he doesn't get up - we have the potential to gain some real momentum with the Crows, Dogs and Tigers.

other clubs always bring back players against the DEES as the have very little chance of being bruised

[chook fowler 18,327]

Jack Fitzpatrick is my biggest disappointment of the season. Showed lots last year and now can't impact at Casey. He's squandered a great opportunity with Hogan and Clarke missing from the forward line. Looks like he's done and dusted at seasons end.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I really hope Riley gets the nod.

I expect he'd play like a man absolutely possessed against the Crows.

Pig Dog may actually eat a Crow on the field. In front of everyone.

[The Chazz 4,077]

In the ruck Watts would not stand a chance, I think Max King would do a better job and I am not advocating picking him. (Rookie anyway)

If you don't have strength below the waist you need to be fast, with a good leap and courageous.

Is there a player at Melbourne that you think Watts could out strengthen? Think Pedersen, he would just push him away, and I don't rate him in the ruck. (Effort lately 8/10).

I don't know if you have played in the ruck but it is hard work, it hurts, you get knees into everywhere from your thighs to your ribs back and front and you come off feeling like a punching bag, and your arms feel like lead. If your lucky you only get a couple of elbows to the head each game. The biggest ugliest brutes on opposition sides just want to jump into you and inflict pain. This is no place for Jack Watts.

Watts is soft

a. Because he does not want to get hurt.

b. Too smart to get hurt.

c. Thinks it is only a job, why get hurt.

If you put him in the ruck he will give up completely and be lost.

The only step I see is several weeks at Casey with clear instructions as to what is expected. If he can't deliver, offer him up for trade.

PS> I am a Watts believer, I think he is capable but a late bloomer. I love his qualities, despise his failings.

Edit ; Spelling.

Interesting that you mention about if you lack lower strength, then you need to be quick, have a good leap and have courage. From what I've seen, Watts ticks two of those "alterntaive" boxes. I disagree to some extent about the courage requirement.

And no, I haven't played ruck, but some of the best rucks I've played under have been tallish (not the tallest), skinny, far from courageous, but have those other qualities that you mentioned (speed and leap).

Don't forget, I'm saying 30-40% of the time, I'm not saying full time. 40% may be a bit too much to ask, so I'll adjust that to 20-30%, but still expect critics. The centre bounce is a genuine 50/50 contest. Jack just needs to focus 100% on the ball, use his jump and win the tap. He's more than capable to do that. At boundary throw-ins he is asked to provide a genuine contest. At stoppages, he is again asked to provide a contest, but an expectation of a third-man-up to assist.

I can't believe how soft some of you are toward Jack. we all want him to be this and that. and we don't want him dropped, but when someone suggests putting him in a role where he has to show that side of his game, you're busy trying to find softer roles to protect him. He's 196cm & 90-odd kgs, he would need to put in 100% if he were to contest against someone 10kgs heavier than him.

He will learn more from putting in 100% against someone bigger than him and losing the contest, as opposed to putting in 80% against someone he should beat and lose.

One last thing on it, let's look at this week's game against Adelaide. Who's their back-up ruck? Jacobs played 89% of the game, so who rucks for the other 11%? The most likely candidate is Josh Jenkins - do you really think he will "monster" Watts at a contest? I would be very disappointed if Watts couldn't at least compete with him.

It's highly likely it won't happen, but some of the reasons why people are against it are quite limp.