What the Heck is "Development"

[Slartibartfast 15,761]

For years now I've read that "we've failed to develop our players". I've been one that's said it. Our youth just doesn't seem to improve in our system and in fact some seem to deteriorate. I know that "development" means "improvement' and going from being a promising junior to a competent AFL player but what is the process and what does "development" entail?

I fail to believe we've haven't committed the resources to player development. In Bailey's time we had Viney and Kelly O'Donnell in charge of development. In Neeld's time we had head coach, line coach and assistant line coaches. We've had player welfare managers and sports psychologists. We've had specialist running coaches and kicking coaches. We've spent the money but haven't developed our players. Why?

Is there anyone on this site who has experience in "player development" that can tell me what it involves. And can you give any insight into why, despite committing the resources, we appear to have failed so badly at this aspect of football. And further, have we got it in place now? Like everyone I trust Roos knows what it looks like and how to do it but I reckon the term is thrown around without any real understanding of what is involved.

I'd like to hear more from those that know.

[Dwight Schrute 16,751]

For years now I've read that "we've failed to develop our players". I've been one that's said it. Our youth just doesn't seem to improve in our system and in fact some seem to deteriorate. I know that "development" means "improvement' and going from being a promising junior to a competent AFL player but what is the process and what does "development" entail?

I fail to believe we've haven't committed the resources to player development. In Bailey's time we had Viney and Kelly O'Donnell in charge of development. In Neeld's time we had head coach, line coach and assistant line coaches. We've had player welfare managers and sports psychologists. We've had specialist running coaches and kicking coaches. We've spent the money but haven't developed our players. Why?

Is there anyone on this site who has experience in "player development" that can tell me what it involves. And can you give any insight into why, despite committing the resources, we appear to have failed so badly at this aspect of football. And further, have we got it in place now? Like everyone I trust Roos knows what it looks like and how to do it but I reckon the term is thrown around without any real understanding of what is involved.

I'd like to hear more from those that know.

I think for me the biggest difference is you look at Geelong, Hawthorn and Sydney, in recent years a young player going into that system has players like Joel selwood, Joel corey, Luke Hodge, Sam Mitchell and Ryan Okeefe types, they instantly get to see how superstar AFL players, Train, act, carry themselves and the standard and quality of training is automatically lifted a few notches, they would get serious development just from training with these blokes,

we are just starting to get a few of those sorts of role models in Cross, Vince and Jones but blokes like Jimmy Toumpas have a much greater expectation placed apon them as they are expected to come in and improve the side right from the word go,

I think the key is to give the players a comparision so for example, Jack Trengove- Ryan Okeefe, get them to watch the bloke train and play, learn the role inside out and the player suddenly has short medium and long term development goals, they have a clear direction and role within the team and they aren't expected to dominate games right away,

I reckon Neeld thought just playing certain amounts of games against these blokes will do it, and Roos i think believes that making the players confident and feeling comfortable and good about themselves will help them while they gain the fitness and such required at the level, it's obvious the improvement in players already from one pre season under Roos and Stone

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

For years now I've read that "we've failed to develop our players". I've been one that's said it. Our youth just doesn't seem to improve in our system and in fact some seem to deteriorate. I know that "development" means "improvement' and going from being a promising junior to a competent AFL player but what is the process and what does "development" entail?

I fail to believe we've haven't committed the resources to player development. In Bailey's time we had Viney and Kelly O'Donnell in charge of development. In Neeld's time we had head coach, line coach and assistant line coaches. We've had player welfare managers and sports psychologists. We've had specialist running coaches and kicking coaches. We've spent the money but haven't developed our players. Why?

Is there anyone on this site who has experience in "player development" that can tell me what it involves. And can you give any insight into why, despite committing the resources, we appear to have failed so badly at this aspect of football. And further, have we got it in place now? Like everyone I trust Roos knows what it looks like and how to do it but I reckon the term is thrown around without any real understanding of what is involved.

I'd like to hear more from those that know.

Good post.

I'm no expert, and I think everyone will have different reasons as to why it's been so hard for us to develop young players that come in.

The most influential people at your club as you've pointed out are your leaders and best players. Having really professional, driven, competitive and smart leaders at your club plays such an important role in the development of youngsters coming through. Something that we haven't had.

In my view, it started around 06-07 when Neita retired and when we moved junior on. Whilst neither of those players were considered superstars, they were definitely our most influential leaders at the club. Bruce, Green, Yze, White, Robbo and a handful of other senior players just didn't have the same effect and that's something that of great curiousity to me because Neitz and JM were fantastic leaders and teachers but clearly it didn't rub off on those guys coming through. Now whether or not that says something about who you draft, their mindset etc is a something we can talk about for hours and would absolutely have something to do with it.

Nathan Jones is somebody who has been able to breakthrough this 'trend' that seems to have continued at Melbourne and you only have to look at his intensity to see that drafting players who are determined to succeed can be just as important as drafting silky outside players who

ride the high wave well but go missing in stormy weather.

Perhaps one could argue that our recruiting over the years has been too one-dimensional with the type of player they've gone after. Perhaps the approach hasn't been overly wholistic, and recruiting teams in the past may have overlooked the importance of the psyche of a player.

Grimes, Trengove and Toumpas captained their under 18 sides and you can definitely see their desire to be the best they can. Had the been drafted to clubs with much stronger leadership and direction around them, they'd be contributing a lot more than what they are for us.

It's something I always think about, but I reckon we've finally got it right with Roos and co at the helm. As I've recently said in another thread, it will be about future drafting and trading. We must get them right. Viney, Toumpas, Trengove, Grimes. They're all highly driven players. Jones and Cross are crucial for our senior leadership and Vince helps. At some point there'll be a flood of young star leaders for us. I'm sure of it.

Edited March 10, 2014 by stevethemanjordan

[Damo 2,988]

I think Neita was great despite his development.

Each Pre-season when he was from 22 to about 25 he trained with the backs but because of injuries to forwards was inevitably sent to the front half.

I dont have facts to confirm but I used to see training especially pre-season quite a bit then.

IIRC he didnt train with forwards in the Pre-season till well into his career.

[jazza 1,323]

For years now I've read that "we've failed to develop our players". I've been one that's said it. Our youth just doesn't seem to improve in our system and in fact some seem to deteriorate. I know that "development" means "improvement' and going from being a promising junior to a competent AFL player but what is the process and what does "development" entail?

I fail to believe we've haven't committed the resources to player development. In Bailey's time we had Viney and Kelly O'Donnell in charge of development. In Neeld's time we had head coach, line coach and assistant line coaches. We've had player welfare managers and sports psychologists. We've had specialist running coaches and kicking coaches. We've spent the money but haven't developed our players. Why?

Is there anyone on this site who has experience in "player development" that can tell me what it involves. And can you give any insight into why, despite committing the resources, we appear to have failed so badly at this aspect of football. And further, have we got it in place now? Like everyone I trust Roos knows what it looks like and how to do it but I reckon the term is thrown around without any real understanding of what is involved.

I'd like to hear more from those that know.

going on my local experienceonly.[which doesnt mean its right]

you can be a bottom of the table club,happens to most.

1/when a younger player comes into the team,coach will gather some older player and read the riot act on how the "kid" is treated.

2/teach him the right things,so was the team gets better in the future ,he "knows whats required as a player.

3/give the "kid"a little bit of rope and let him run.

4/never ever never,let fat ugly blokes from the oppositon try to kill your "kid"

5/keep him away from d1ckheads at your club.

6/as the team improves[over 3 years maybe]you have a good well educated player in your ranks.

i think neeld /misson tried to build some of these players in the magoos last year,great idea,they needed more upper body strenght and another preseason in their legs,

7/sometimes you play mugs in the senoirs to make sure all the "kids" arent barrelled together and not protected.

thats why the FD recruited some cheapies to our club,it was about list management.not exposing all the kids at the same time.

dont know if this answers all the questions ,but our club had a proud history of looking after and mentoring "kids".

our biggest fail,Jwatts first game,attacked by 3 mugs and nobody even went over to say gurday to him afetr the incident,it would have taught him,your on your own at this club,so look after yourself.

and he will never understand how to look after the next "kid' because of this.

development meltdown for 6 years,

Edited March 10, 2014 by jazza

[Redleg 37,566]

For years now I've read that "we've failed to develop our players". I've been one that's said it. Our youth just doesn't seem to improve in our system and in fact some seem to deteriorate. I know that "development" means "improvement' and going from being a promising junior to a competent AFL player but what is the process and what does "development" entail?

I fail to believe we've haven't committed the resources to player development. In Bailey's time we had Viney and Kelly O'Donnell in charge of development. In Neeld's time we had head coach, line coach and assistant line coaches. We've had player welfare managers and sports psychologists. We've had specialist running coaches and kicking coaches. We've spent the money but haven't developed our players. Why?

Is there anyone on this site who has experience in "player development" that can tell me what it involves. And can you give any insight into why, despite committing the resources, we appear to have failed so badly at this aspect of football. And further, have we got it in place now? Like everyone I trust Roos knows what it looks like and how to do it but I reckon the term is thrown around without any real understanding of what is involved.

I'd like to hear more from those that know.

Good post. I put it down to basically we have recruited poorly. Why do some recruits come in from round 1 and play good footy, that is not development.

[Macca 16,173]

Roos is on record in saying that the first 3 or 4 years of a footballers life (after the under 18's) is ultra important. I've heard him say that at least twice on 'OTC' so at least we can say we've got someone in charge who understands how things work.

As for the practical side of things, it's imperative to have a number of good leaders within the playing group and you need coaches who know what they're doing. A club's culture is a major factor as well. There's a lot to it - it doesn't just magically happen. And then of course, a new young recruit may simply not be any good.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Unfortunately I too don't have the experience you're seeking.

I suspect it's a mixture of treatment, expectations on individual players, selection decisions, understanding a players strengths and weaknesses, and crucially the leadership group. It probably includes the whole fabric and culture of a club. It's intangible, but I reckon Roos and co know how to do it.

A youngster that joins the Sydney Swans goes through an induction process. This may be the same at most/all clubs, but it's driven by the LG. Sydney's LG virtually runs the club with the imprimatur of the coach. Tom Mitchell is going to be a genuine star. Yes, he had injury issues in his first season, but he also played plenty of footy at their lower level. He didn't play a senior game in his first year. Scully, Watts, Morton and Trengove come to the club and there's much fanfare. The Kids get talked up a lot. They're anointed as the ones that are going to drive the club up the ladder. Rather than just settle in, learn from the senior group, play most of the year at Casey, they're given exalted status. The psyche of the whole club is wrong. They players feel expectation that they shouldn't and senior players probably get their noses out of joint, especially when they see their teammates pensioned off or leave for other clubs.

There's probably not one easy answer, but there's been a culmination of poor decisions adversely effect young players drafted to this club.

Edited March 10, 2014 by Hannibal

[sue 8,424]

Scully, Watts, Morton and Trengove come to the club and there's much fanfare. The Kids get talked up a lot. They're anointed as the ones that are going to drive the club up the ladder. Rather than just settle in, learn from the senior group, play most of the year at Casey, they're given exalted status.

Isn't the fanfare and expectation by supporters almost inevitable when high draft picks come to a bottom club. It is up to the coaching staff to ignore that and do the settling-in, provide a senior group from which they can learn etc. It seems we now have a coach who has that in mind. Let's hope it works out. But let's not despair at every setback like many of the posts in the Hawks practice match did.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Isn't the fanfare and expectation by supporters almost inevitable when high draft picks come to a bottom club. It is up to the coaching staff to ignore that and do the settling-in, provide a senior group from which they can learn etc. It seems we now have a coach who has that in mind. Let's hope it works out. But let's not despair at every setback like many of the posts in the Hawks practice match did.

The club encouraged it.

[Macca 16,173]

With Roos and co on board, there's a very good chance that we'll developed our young players properly ... Viney, Toumpas, Hogan, JKH, Salem, Kent and 1 or 2 others now have a real opportunity. Others, who are a little older like Watts, Trengove and co can be turned into good footballers as well. However, there are no guarantees. Each player needs to have an inner drive to want to succeed. A coach can only do so much.

In a sense, we've picked badly through the ND but .... it wasn't necessarily through incompetence. That's not to say we haven't picked the wrong type of player though. "In and under" types can often be taught an outside game. Good disposal skills are something that the Hawks have concentrated on (they then teach them the "Hawthorn" way)

Edited March 10, 2014 by Macca

[dee-luded 2,958]

its the stuff we failed to do to our players over the last 15 years. the stuff the off field footy staff do at training & in the 2nds.

& the culture reflects it as well. like a mirror.

its the stuff Pagan did, when an under 19 coach, & Slug Jordan did throughout his career.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Good post. I put it down to basically we have recruited poorly. Why do some recruits come in from round 1 and play good footy, that is not development.

you can't grow much quality, from a Petri dish filled with a Caca culture. everything will be stunted.

[KingDingAling 3,595]

What is development? Development is something that people blame our poor recruiting on.

While development does play an integral part and it can improve a player ten fold.

Some players simply aren't cut out for AFL football, sadly for the MFC - we've stocked up on these type of players over the years.

Some will have you know that Gysberts, Cook, Morton all could've been guns if developed right.

But the reality of it is, these players simply did not have what it taken to make it in an AFL environment.

[Pennant St Dee 11,257]

It's very much like the chicken and the egg, bad recruiting vs development, I think we have recruited badly with a number of players namely the project players and not recruited for the here and now with some of our selections. 2010 we had a good balance with Scully and Trengove playing with Junior, a fit Jamar, Green, Jones and Maloney's big body. Whilst we were mid table I think we were somewhat on the right track. To me the way we drafted in 2009 was the way to draft Scully, Trengove & Tappscott were ready to go and Gysberts was a project player who the club obviously felt had something to work with. Think back to the side we had in 2006 and how the young players of Bate, Dunn, Bartram and Jones fitted in because they were surrounded by older players who took a lot of pressure of them.

The club needs to learn from the Gysberts, Cook & Morton picks ON how to screen and target players with a greater desire and workrate. 2008 was a bad draft, I have no problem with the club taking Watts at number 1, but taking Blease & Strauss with our next two picks left us with 3 project players and nobody ready to step straight in. That type of drafting is going to leave holes which on our list were amplified by bad drafting towards the end of Dannihers reign and the premature moving on of Junior, Miller and some other senior players left a massive dearth we are still struggling to recover from. We could not have timed things any worse with the last 3 drafts being severely compromised with the two new clubs coming in, but IAH we have not helped ourselves.

I hope we learn and learn quickly about picking the right players, it is not easy and there are always surprises and luck plays a big part but targeting long term prospects and skinny kids to much is fraught with danger. The Hawks are renowned for their kicking skills but never underestimate the targeting they did under Brereton & Dunstalls influence of targeting hard nose honest footballers, they overlooked Judd because of concerns with his shoulders but Hodge was vital and his influence is massive in the culture of the club. It would appear on face value Roos has started to address this with our trading & drafting last year, Tyson, Michie, Cross & Vince ready to go and Salem/JKH can be allowed to develop at VFL and come in when they are ready. It is what Roos did but time will tell.

There is a kid I know being looked at by several clubs who will be in this years draft and has all the right attributes on face value, size, skill and some good athletic ability. He has been a highly regarded player for a number of years and should be in our state 18's this year. This is the kids biggest year in terms of his footy future but he is not as fit as he should be and spent a large part of the off season lazing around. To me that is a large warning sign, the kid thinks it will just happen for him and does not have the right attitude as opposed to another potential draftee who has recognised deficiencies in his own game and has started working with a sprint coach to increase his speed and acceleration. The second kid is a very long shot to be drafted or even rookied but the extra time he is doing in the gym and with the sprint coach just to get the best out of himself is something which has a lot of upside and potential in the right environment.

The likes of Lyon, Roos and Malthouse can teach any player with adequate skill but the right desire to fit into their game structure and it is something the MFC needs to consider strongly in their recruitment and drafting process as opposed to trying to draft potential project players who have had it easy at junior level but lack the hunger and desire to really succeed. I am sure the new Footy department are well aware of this and have started to address this and whilst we will go through some more ups and downs we will see different types of players being targeted.

[LooseLou 20]

If my memory serves me correcting, Neeld was staggered at how far behind in terms of fitness we were compared to the Colliwobbles (hence the floggings the players got in terms of pre-season running). To me this is a manifestation of the poor culture at the club. The new recruits would accept that this is the fitness standard required of them and consequently they were deemend to be not as well developed. Their fitness base (or lack thereof) did not allow them to learn when, where and how to position themselves and certainly whatever mentors they had did not raise the bar sufficiently for the newbies to develope to an afl standard.

Its an old adage but you play how you train - no fitness base means = inability to train hard and develop good habits = translates to not playing hard in a game = floggings

[rpfc 27,448]

I will say that I think recruitment has been the broad problem and our poor development of a few individuals has compounded the problem.

To me development involves all that others have already mentioned - expectations at selection, in the game, around the club, and of the Leadership Group to teach these players from the relevant perspective - a proper perspective.

These are all 'in the clouds notions' aren't they? But habits beget performance, if you have poor habits - or taught poor habits - then they are ingrained and hard to shed.

One more aspect of development that has not been mentioned; tailoring a players body to the kind of player he will become. I look at Patrick Dangerfield and see his big thighs and large core and I really don't think we would have set him aside for a couple of years (he was a young recruit) and built his frame. I believe we would have got distance in his legs and he would be a Cam Bruce style player that runs and runs but isn't built to be an explosive player.

I think this is where sport science meets development.

Edited March 10, 2014 by rpfc

[Hannibal 5,814]

It's so much more than bad drafting.

[Sir Why You Little 34,436]

Development is learning. Good teachers provide good learning.

This club has failed at it for decades. It is almost as if we have recruited unsuitable players at times to facilitate an excuse.

Overlooking Wines was a perfect example.

A ready made blue collar extractor that we passed up for a slow baby with an elite kick, which means nothing if he doesn't find the ball.

Our List development must be the worst in the league by a fair way.

Edited March 10, 2014 by why you little

[Whispering_Jack 27,964]

I hate using the word but somehow, our failings have to do with "culture" and a failure to develop enough players who lead by example. I sense that this is the first phase of Paul Roos' plans to change the shape of the club.

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

Simply it's the process by which you take talented players who flash skills or traits and turn them in to consistent players capable of producing against the best opponents.

If you take Hawthorn it's all their players but for example a player like Luke Breust who was a junior rugby player and improving his skills, his fitness and his ability to find the ball.

Part of it is finding out what your players strengths are and making sure they can play a role to show off those skills and then the other part is working on a players weaknesses.

Take Brad HIll from Hawthorn. Recruited as a junior as a top endurance athlete, good at finding the footy, but a little soft and not the most reliable skills. Yet very quickly Hawthorn found a spot for him at half forward/wing and just told him to run up and down the field using his fitness. They worked on the reliability of his kicking and through some physical development and some AFL matches he improved his hardness.

Compare that to Dan Nicholson who still can't kick and has his moments of softness and therefore can't get in the team despite being a great runner and having the ability to link up and find the ball. The examples for Melbourne players go on for days.

Gysberts is probably a great example of a guy who when recruited had talent. He showed it early that he could find the footy and had nice hands in close. Yet for whatever reason he had no physical development or skill development. That he washed out at North so quick probably tells me it was above the shoulders but we've had plenty of other examples. Ricky Petterd - maybe it's questionable if he's a regular in a top 8 side but he can play forward or back. He's hard at it and could find the footy since his first game. Yet never seemed to get fit enough or improve his skills that seemed to let him down.

[Pipefitter 2,014]

"Getting games into the kids" was a massive part of our development problems. If you aren't made to work hard to earn your place you aren't going to respect it.

[Dwight Schrute 16,751]

It's interesting that some of our players haven't developed at all and others have developed into good players, examples like Nathan Jones, Jack Grimes, James Frawley, Colin Garland and Jeremy Howe would all get games at other clubs, blokes like Lynden Dunn, Tom Mcdonald, Jack Trengove and Jack Watts have become solid contributers, what concerns me is james Strauss, Luke Tapscott, Jordan Gysberts, Cale Morton, Sam Blease, Lucas Cook all of which are first round picks and none could lay claim to holding a spot in the best 22 of any list in the AFL in the past 10 years, these blokes should be at the very least role players in the best 22, have we picked badly or does our program not get the best out of blokes like this

Jack Trengove, Jimmy Toumpas and Jack Watts to date have not reached the expectations placed apon them but all are still young and have the opportunity to turn things around, Trenners and Watts are showing signs they might be ready to show significant improvement

Dom Tyson, Jack Viney and Jesse Hogan look like stars in the making but so did Trenners in his first year

the thing that concerns me is the players taken after the blokes mentioned above

Luke Tapscott was followed by

Nat Fyfe, Ryan Bastinac, Jake Carslile, Jack Gunstan, Mitch duncan

Jordan gysberts was followed by

all of those and daniel tahlia and lewis jetta

Lucas cook was followed by

Billy smedts, Shaun Atley, luke parker, jack darling

Sam Blease and James Strauss could have been

Luke Shuey and david Zaharakis or Dane Beams and Dan Hannebry or Steven Motlop and Rory Sloane

Cale Morton was followed by

Patrick Dangerfield, Cyril RIoli, Scott Selwood, Callan Ward

Development aside our recruiting has been shockingly bad,

I also heard reports training standards under Bailey were far below par, and Neelds were much better but perhaps to based around fitness and not enough around basic Skills

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

James Frawley, Col Garland, Nathan Jones there aren't too many on our list who have started out as decent players who flashed talent but actually gone through the gears and got better year by year to reach a high level.

The other aspect is not individual development but team development. Dean Bailey's Melbourne team from 2008-2010 actually came through as an improving group. It was build on shifting foundations and crashed in a heap in late 2011 but the team really improved as a unit for a few years there.

This year will be a lot about team development as they start to play the game plan and play together. If it works then we will have a playing group that looks vastly improved as competitive losses or wins makes everyone look better than consecutive 10 or 15 goal thrashings.

If we build a base of a team that can at least compete then when we bring in the likes of Salem, Kent, Toumpas, JKH as well as the ones who can hopefully fight for themselves like Hogan, Tyson and Viney they will develop individually.

[Sir Why You Little 34,436]

Good God, Lucas Cook taken before Jack Darling!!

Reading that can cause heart failure.

Meanwhile at the same time the previous CEO was designing a club school blazer.

I cannot blame opposition clubs for not taking the MFC seriously before PJ stepped in.