Realistically where I see the playing list

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

You're joking right?

Jack Watts can play basically anywhere from back pocket to the forward flank, and Fitzy and Hogan are both capable of holding down wing positions. Dawes is obviously the least versatile of them all, but when everyone else can play all sorts of positions I wouldn't worry too much about it - especially when you consider that the likelihood of everyone being fit at the same time is very very low.

Fitzy on the wing is a little bit of a leap I reckon, but having 3 tall forwards in Clark, Dawes and hogan, resting ruck in Fitzpatrick, and watts playing as a small forward could work!

Having said that I would rather have the problem of having one too many forward options than lack of them!

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

'Realistically', unlike several other clubs, we have very good bookends.

And we now have a reasonable spine.

Two things Neale Daniher bemoaned following the round 5 loss to the Swans in 2003 when I chatted to him. In short, he said we needed to develop a stronger spine to be able to consistently win the big games.

Well, at last, I think we're finally developing one - 10 years later.

We just need a couple of really good, experienced mids and one more really good running back/ball user (eg, Pearce Hanley). And obviously to also retain the required players currently on our list.

That being the case, I simply don't agree with the assessment of our list in the OP.

[Barney Rubble 1,576]

I keep remembering how Howes kicking improved amazingly over the last preseason and hope someone kidnaps Nicholson and makes sure he does the same before R1 2014. If he could really kick he'd be worth inclusion because he can run anyone into the ground tagging.

Won't hold my breath though

I'm not a real fan of Nicho, but I admire his attitude at training.

His training is Elite, but his skills are down. He practices his kicking after every training session, and is improving.

The problem is his disposal under pressure. He runs flat out but must steady just a bit before kicking.

I think he is worth persevering with, if only to help the young kids with the attitude required to train.

[mauriesy 7,287]

Two things Neale Daniher bemoaned following the round 5 loss to the Swans in 2003 when I chatted to him. In short, he said we needed to develop a stronger spine to be able to consistently win the big games.

You could easily develop an argument that we have since over-emphasised the spine and not put enough energy into developing a midfield, which is the real engine room of a team.

The number of high picks we've spent on talls (and lightly-framed runners) as opposed to hard bodied, in-and-under players is one reason for our demise. The 'spine versus midfield' pendulum has swung over our heads.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,817]

Trengove - Gunna play 150 but just a player

So Trengove will be retiring or getting delisted at age 26 or 27?

He's already played 70 games.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Bring-Back-Powell

[drdrake 3,163]

I'm not a real fan of Nicho, but I admire his attitude at training.

His training is Elite, but his skills are down. He practices his kicking after every training session, and is improving.

The problem is his disposal under pressure. He runs flat out but must steady just a bit before kicking.

I think he is worth persevering with, if only to help the young kids with the attitude required to train.

Shall we go and draft Craig Motram then, great runner but no skills, I suppose Geelong did that this year.

We have Blease, Davey, Jetta, Byrnes, Tapscott, Kent on our list that all play that small forward role. By far this year Davey has been the stand out, does he have another year why not we have so many other players that need to be delisted that we can afford to keep him next year.

Tapscott is a real concern, he is not a small forward to slow, he is more a marking small forward than a front and centre. With Clark, Hogan, Dawes, Watts, Howe, Fitzpatrick, we don't need marking small forwards we need front and centre. The same for Kent, for Kent and Tapscott to stay at Melbourne both need to be able to run through the midfield. Jetta as much as I like him he will be gone at years end, shame they didn't persist with him down back, he isn't a small forward and I don't think he can build his tank to run through the midfield.

Strauss, would love to see him replace Dunn for the rest of the year, give him a good run at it to see if he can play. I don't think we have seen the best of him, play him on Motlop this week.

We have read this many times our forward and back 6 are solid, our midfield is poor. I would have Fitzpatrick on the trade table and even Watts for the right midfielders.

[Clintosaurus 7,844]

Barry in the Best 22??????

I liked what I saw of him in the Casey v Northern Blues game the other week. Just needs to get involved a little more, but has the potential to be very good in a Lewis Jetta kind of way.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

Shall we go and draft Craig Motram then, great runner but no skills, I suppose Geelong did that this year.

We have Blease, Davey, Jetta, Byrnes, Tapscott, Kent on our list that all play that small forward role. By far this year Davey has been the stand out, does he have another year why not we have so many other players that need to be delisted that we can afford to keep him next year.

Tapscott is a real concern, he is not a small forward to slow, he is more a marking small forward than a front and centre. With Clark, Hogan, Dawes, Watts, Howe, Fitzpatrick, we don't need marking small forwards we need front and centre. The same for Kent, for Kent and Tapscott to stay at Melbourne both need to be able to run through the midfield. Jetta as much as I like him he will be gone at years end, shame they didn't persist with him down back, he isn't a small forward and I don't think he can build his tank to run through the midfield.

Strauss, would love to see him replace Dunn for the rest of the year, give him a good run at it to see if he can play. I don't think we have seen the best of him, play him on Motlop this week.

We have read this many times our forward and back 6 are solid, our midfield is poor. I would have Fitzpatrick on the trade table and even Watts for the right midfielders.

I've thought about both of those trades but then I've also considered why not keep our strengths as they are try to fix our weaknesses by building up instead of just evening the list.

Fitzpatrick is currently best 22 and in terms of his position of forwards who can ruck he's only behind Clark on the depth chart. Trade Fitzy, Clark doesn't recover any time soon and we are back looking at Pedersen in a role he can't do OR Dawes in a role he isn't suited to OR playing 2 rucks and having no forward pressure.

Watts on the other hand makes a bit more sense in some regard. As a third tall forward he's in direct competition with Hogan and Howe. Ie. if Watts goes we still have those 2 to fill his spot not to mention 2 of Dawes, Clark and Fitzy in the team which could be all 3 if we wanted.

But I think Watts is still only playing at about 70% of his potential. Whatever position he plays his strengths will be his athleticism and skills. He just finds it easier to impact games by using this strengths forward at the moment. He just has to run on a lead, get into space and then use the ball by kicking a goal or moving the ball on. But with another 10% improvement on what he's delivered the last month you'd have him at an intensity and hardness that those same strengths of his could be used at half back or on a wing. So that's why I wouldn't trade him, Also I'd factor in that it would cause controversy trading him and the club should look to retain players and not off load them. We already have a reputation for that.

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

I liked what I saw of him in the Casey v Northern Blues game the other week. Just needs to get involved a little more, but has the potential to be very good in a Lewis Jetta kind of way.

He still needs to make the step to being involved consistently at Casey before he'll do it at AFL. I think at Casey he probably averages around 15 touches at most. He needs to get that to 20+ and do all the defensive and other things asked of him before he stands a chance in the AFL. I expect next year as an improving year for him at Casey before 2015 being the year when he really gets a serious shot at AFL. He might get a taste before then but it's not high on my priorities.

[Ted Lasso 19,513]

id proabaly give tappy another year but maybe magner and jetta could be worth a 3rd round pick? we did well with those last year

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,754]

'Realistically', unlike several other clubs, we have very good bookends.

And we now have a reasonable spine.

Two things Neale Daniher bemoaned following the round 5 loss to the Swans in 2003 when I chatted to him. In short, he said we needed to develop a stronger spine to be able to consistently win the big games.

Well, at last, I think we're finally developing one - 10 years later.

We just need a couple of really good, experienced mids and one more really good running back/ball user (eg, Pearce Hanley). And obviously to also retain the required players currently on our list.

That being the case, I simply don't agree with the assessment of our list in the OP.

I suspect Grimes would be better suited to the running back role once we get a half-decent midfield. Both he and Howe are being used in the midfield when both, to me, look better suited to other positions. I don't blame the coaches for playing Grimes and Howe on ball - that's just our current reality. And I think Kent looks like a natural on baller with his driving left foot. He just needs the chance to get fit.

[Grimseyisgod 378]

this threads a joke.

you underrate trengove and dont even bother rating future guns such as Evans

whatever

[CBDees 3,167]

Barry in the Best 22??????

In two years time, why not? He is still young and was effectively a first round pick in our package with Hogan and Dawes. My view is that they will prove to be three very astute long-term pick-ups!

[MadAsHell 4,212]

My take:

1. Jesse Hogan: Future gun and is in the Carey/J. Brown mould. Reckon he could do some real damage next year getting the 3rd tall defender with Clark and Dawes taking a lot of pressure off.

2. Nathan Jones: Heart and soul player and a much improved player over the last 2 years. Needs more help in the midfield.

4. Jack Watts: Great talent and is starting to show a sense of urgency in his game that we haven't seen previously. Will become a vital utility, mainly playing HFF with stints on the wing and off half back.

5. Jimmy Toumpas: Will be a good player, just needs some time. Looks composed with ball in hand.

6. Chris Dawes: Great addition to the club in terms of leadership and structure. Will be a permanant CHF/FF for many years to come.

7. Jack Viney: Loved what I've seen of Jack, a fierce competitor and in time will be a great midfielder and will play a big role in helping N. jones out.

8. James Frawley: Although he's lost a bit of his creativity he's still one of if not the best shut down FB in the comp IMO. A must kee and the sooner we extend his contarct the better.

9. Jack Trengove: I've liked what I've seen this year, is slowly getting back to some of his best and after a full pre-season am hoping he'll be back there next year.

10. Shannon Byrnes: Next year will be his last. Has played an important role I have no doubt in helping provide some leadership, experience and showing some of the young kids the right way to go about preparing for AFL football.

11. Mitch Clark: Monster and love the man. Hope he comes back bigger and better from his injury but will have to play the role of our 2nd ruck for team balance to allow all he, Dawes and Hogan to play together.

12. Colin Sylvia: Playing the most consistent footy I've seen him play. A good club man who's popular amongst other players and supporters. I hope he signs on for 3 more years to be a Demon for life and help out in our midfield while the likes of Viney, Toumpas and soon to be new draftees develop.

13. Jordie McKenzie: Good player to have at the club who always gives his all but certainly has his limitations. Is contracted for 2 more years and will see them out. I feel that once he starts to struggle to get a game then that means we're getting better, and I mean that in the most respectful way.

14. Lynden Dunn: Has served the club for 9 years now and over 100 games. Is contracted for next year and will likely see it out as I don't think he'd attract much attention at the trade table. Handy depth player, but a limited future at the club IMO.

15. David Rodan: Has been a very handy player since the Hawthorn game, especially with Viney out IMO. May potentially get 1 more year and like Byrnes I'm sure has helped out off the field with the young players in a big way.

17. Sam Blease: He's a player that teases with the skill and ability that he has but is still yet to put it together consistently. Has still played under 50 games and has had his injury set backs so more time is needed. Could become one of the most damaging players in the league with the right coach.

19. James Strauss: Pretty sure he's contarcted next year and it will be a big one for James. Like Blease has had his injury issues, yet Blease has probably shown more glimpses then Strauss. Had a very good game in the VFL the other week but currently will struggle to remain on the list beyond 2014 IMO.

20. Colin Garland: Is developing into a very good leader and 3rd tall defender and if he was playing with a better team would probably be getting talked about as a potential All Australian this year. Critical player for us going forward with his ability to play tall and small.

21. Cameron Pedersen: Has shown he's a very good VFL player but has struggled so far at senior level with his hardness at the contest being questioned more then once. Contracted for 2 more years and looks like he'll be a depth tall defender.

22. James Magner: Very good VFL player, but lack of pace and questionable disposal puts big question marks on his ability to make it at AFL level. I suspect he'll be delisted at seasons end.

23. Josh Tynan: Some question marks also over his pace and disposal but has age on his side and has only played 2 AFL matches. 1 year contract extention for mine and liek many on our list, 2014 will tell us a lot about Josh.

25. Tom McDonald: Struggled a little early in the year after an injury interupted pre-season but has been back to his best of late. Certainly don't agree with the 2nd year blues as mentioned in the OP. Will be a very good player for this club and will tidy his disposal up over time.

26. Daniel Nicholson: Great pace and endurance, but disposal is poor. Going forward is in a batle with Jordie McKenzie for the tagging role IMO. Again I'd look to give Nicho a 1 year contract extension to try and tidy that kicking up. If he does he could become a very valuable player.

27. Tom Gillies: Questionable selection at the end of last year. Given the depth we had of Sellar, Davis, Joel MacDonald and the fact we've discovered Pedersen's a backman and not a forward. Can't see Gillies with us beyond this year.

28 Joel MacDonald: Has been a solid player for a few years now, and have never questioned Joel's endevour. Disposal has let him down, and he's struggle to get on the park this year. Think he'll be delisted.

30. James Sellar: Similar player to Pedersen in that he's a reasonable defender, not much of a forward and can ruck if you need him to. Wouldn't question Sellar's hardness, but he is a limited player. As he's OOC at seasons end and Pedersen is in contract I suspect Sellar will be delisted and Pedersen will survive.

31. Jack Grimes: Has really gown with the cpatians role IMO and we really missed him the last 8 weeks. Will become our longest serving captain, premiership captain and very solid and reliable HBF who rotates through the midfield.

32. Michael Evans: He reminds me of a young Leigh Montagna the way Pickles goes about it. I have high hopes for Evans and hope he can get his body right.

33. Dominic Barry: Jury's still out but I do like the look of him. Wait and see.

34. Dean Kent: Love his attack on the ball and the pressure he puts on. Can see him playing as a small forward who rotates onto the wing. I can see a long future for Kent.

35. Luke Tapscott: Some concern over Tappy but a lot of upside also. I can see Tappy playing a bit of a Campbell Brown defensive forward role where he plays forward but tags the oppositions best running defender. If he can work on his running could also rotate through the midfield and off half back. Could be used as trade bait but I hope we hold onto him and turn him into the player I've mentioned.

36. Aaron Davey: Ageing vetran who's best is past him but he still has great skills and was wrapped to see him run down Ted Richards on the weekend. Reckon 1 more year is on the cards given the young age of our list.

37. Max Gawn: Absolutely love big Maxy, and some of the things he did on the weekend agility wise were fantastic! If his knees hold up he could become on of the best ruckmen in the comp.

38. Jermey Howe: Given we'll have Clark, Dawes and Hogan as our 3 key forwards next year and Watts also, one could argue that one of Howe or Watts should be traded given they can't both play as a 4th tall off half forward. However given Howe is our highlight reel and Watts number 1 draft pick I'd like to see the club keep them both and use them as utilities rotating between HF, wing, HB and in Howe's case even on ball. I think this has been a good year for Howe's development in that respect that he's played different roles and see both Howe and Watts as valuable players going forwards.

39. Neville Jetta: I like Nev Jetta, however he's been on the list awhile now and just doesn't seem to do enough when he's had his opportunities. Think he'll be delisted at years end.

40. Mark Jamar: Ageing warhorse who has 2 years left at the end of this year and will have a battle on his hands with Gawn and Spencer to hold onto the number 1 ruck role. Will se out his contract to help with the development of Gawn & Spencil.

41. Troy Davis: Young KPD who's now in his 3rd year on the list but yet to play a game at senior level. Has shown improvement in his defensive efforts and kicking in the VFL and has also shown an ability to go forward and kick a goal and he seems to love the rough stuff. With Frawley, McDonald and Garland holding down the key defensive psost and Pedersen contracted for depth, Davis does face a challenge to hold his spot. May be delisted, but even if he is I'm hopeful the club will re-rookie him in case Frawley doesn't sign on at the end of 2014. Reckon he could be a decent player.

42. Jake Spencer: Earlier this year I would have said he's a list clogger and it was a waste him being on our list until the end of 2014. However his VFL forms been very good and his game against St Kilda was the best I've seen him play, so there's still hope for Spencil. Will be an important player to keep the pressure on Gawn as the new no 1 ruckman and can still learn a bit from Russian.

43. Rory Taggert: Jury's still out. Has shown some glimpses in the VFL but consistency seems to be an issue. Given he missed most of his first year with injury a new 1 year deal should be given to see what he can produce next year.

44. Rohan Bai: See comments re: Joel MacDonald. Had hopes Bail may be able to become our tagger or defensive forward, but injuries seem to be getting the better of him. Is contracted so next year will be the make or break year for him I reckon.

45. Matt Jones: Has been a valuable contributer to our midfield this year and with our lack of depth in this department will be valuable for a few years to come. Another player who I think could be good in the role of tagger as he can get plenty of the ball himself and his disposal isn't to bad.

46. Dean Terlich: Has been a fantastic addition to our half back line and will finish top 5 in our B&F. Will play 150 games + and his disposal will only get better to go with his run and carry.

47. Tom Couch: See comments re James Magner

48: Jack Fitzpatrick: Could be one of those players that attracts some interest at trade time. Has shown some real promise over the last few weeks but next year with Hogan, Dawes, Clark, Watts & Howe all up and about, Fitzy will be relegated to Casey as depth for Mitch I suspect. Would love him to stay as I'm a big fan of Fitzy but he may see the writting on the wall himself and request a trade? I'd imagine Carlton, St Kilda and Bulldogs would all be very keen on him. Hope he stays but may go and I'd imagine the price would be reasonable.

49. Nathan Stark: Poor guys hasn't had a decent run so hard to tell. He may be an unlucky victim due to the want to add players to our list but who's to know?

50. Mitch Clisby: Has been quite impressive in his 3 games so far with his run and carry and willingness to put his head over the ball. I'd go down the road of McKenzie, Evans & Nicholson and give him 1 more year on the rookie list before upgrading him, but he looks a likely type and could be a long term player in the back pocket.

[jazza 1,323]

could you write with a bit more meaning and class

definitely not a private school education

[MadAsHell 4,212]

could you write with a bit more meaning and class

definitely not a private school education

Sorry jazza, public school system in Franga all the way for me!

[watchtheeyes 1,420]

Fitzy on the wing is a little bit of a leap I reckon, but having 3 tall forwards in Clark, Dawes and hogan, resting ruck in Fitzpatrick, and watts playing as a small forward could work!

Having said that I would rather have the problem of having one too many forward options than lack of them!

I want to see Watts given free reign. We've seen how well he positions himself in defense and how well he can present in attack. If he builds up his endurance he could be a very handy Brendan Goddard style of player.

[Little Richard 6,262]

I want to see Watts given free reign. We've seen how well he positions himself in defense and how well he can present in attack. If he builds up his endurance he could be a very handy Brendan Goddard style of player.

I reckon we should just leave him up forward for a while. Let him cement his spot, build his confidence and get some continuity.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,385]

From the weekends team how I rate their immediate futures;

Trengove - Gunna play 150 but just a player

Grimes - If can stay fit will be a classy reliable player

Jones - gutsy, passionate, but slow, needs help. Should be captain

Watts - Continues to improve, must stay, will play 200 for the club

Toumpas - First year player, remember that, will make it with right coaches

Dawes - needs to be a pack breaker like Neitz not just a goal kicker we will have lead ups

Frawley - Quality, needs support

Byrnes - thanks but goodbye

Sylvia - has the game but need to accept its not there every week

Dunn - trade or sign cheap as a fill in player

Rodan - too slow for pace and by hand and foot, but strong, use to help kids at casey

Garland - quality and doesnt get due credit, born leader, must keep

McDonald - has 2nd year blues will be good as long as he doesnt kick it to much.

Nicholson - trade for any pick terrible disposal, doesnt matter how quick or wot endurance he has.

Kent - not up to it at this stage

Davey - thanks mate youve been great. But youve lost your weapons

Gawn - Still played under 15 games going to be elite

Howe - Highlight machine, needs to get get ball more,consistantly

M.Jones - not quick but will be solid for years to come

Terlich - Really like endeavour, needs polish then will make a great half back

Fitzpatrick - Great endeavour, big boy with big tank and quick, I hope that's enough. Poor kick. pray to god he is up to it.

Clisby - not sure yet

Plus the others

Clarke - need him fit brings so much to the team.

Viney - Same as Toumpus See above

Strauss - to light and just hasnt had the luck, wont make it

MacDonald - enjoy retirement

Bail - has filled gaps but time to go

Tynan - one more year to get body right and get his chance

Davis - tried down back now tried down forward where he wont compete, goodbye

Sellar - trade if we can

Pederson - persist for another year and get fit and lean

Tapscott - dont need another slow player, trade or delist

Jetta - Has weapons needs to string games together 50% chance.

Spencer - Must keep as back up at this stage - one more year

Jamar - if gawn had a full season under his belt id say trade but one more year at least , hoping he can recapture form

Blease - needs to be let off the leash and be that crumbing forward, want to see more

Gillies - Not a key backman and slow, mistake

Barry - project player, needs a good coach

Taggert - worth persistence,

Hogan - sign for 8 years

Couch - slow old style football, in a good team could give something

Magner - Better than Couch but same

Rodan, Too slow?????

[old dee 23,788]

Parma, close to my own view .

I can find little to disagree with, we have some poor players or we would not be second last.

Edited July 11, 2013 by old dee

[Webber 10,465]

Rodan, Too slow?????

Jones slow??????

Matt Jones not quick?????

Odd!

[DeeM 42]

From the weekends team how I rate their immediate futures;

Trengove - Gunna play 150 but just a player

Grimes - If can stay fit will be a classy reliable player

Jones - gutsy, passionate, but slow, needs help. Should be captain

Watts - Continues to improve, must stay, will play 200 for the club

Toumpas - First year player, remember that, will make it with right coaches

Dawes - needs to be a pack breaker like Neitz not just a goal kicker we will have lead ups

Frawley - Quality, needs support

Byrnes - thanks but goodbye

Sylvia - has the game but need to accept its not there every week

Dunn - trade or sign cheap as a fill in player

Rodan - too slow for pace and by hand and foot, but strong, use to help kids at casey

Garland - quality and doesnt get due credit, born leader, must keep

McDonald - has 2nd year blues will be good as long as he doesnt kick it to much.

Nicholson - trade for any pick terrible disposal, doesnt matter how quick or wot endurance he has.

Kent - not up to it at this stage

Davey - thanks mate youve been great. But youve lost your weapons

Gawn - Still played under 15 games going to be elite

Howe - Highlight machine, needs to get get ball more,consistantly

M.Jones - not quick but will be solid for years to come

Terlich - Really like endeavour, needs polish then will make a great half back

Fitzpatrick - Great endeavour, big boy with big tank and quick, I hope that's enough. Poor kick. pray to god he is up to it.

Clisby - not sure yet

Plus the others

Clarke - need him fit brings so much to the team.

Viney - Same as Toumpus See above

Strauss - to light and just hasnt had the luck, wont make it

MacDonald - enjoy retirement

Bail - has filled gaps but time to go

Tynan - one more year to get body right and get his chance

Davis - tried down back now tried down forward where he wont compete, goodbye

Sellar - trade if we can

Pederson - persist for another year and get fit and lean

Tapscott - dont need another slow player, trade or delist

Jetta - Has weapons needs to string games together 50% chance.

Spencer - Must keep as back up at this stage - one more year

Jamar - if gawn had a full season under his belt id say trade but one more year at least , hoping he can recapture form

Blease - needs to be let off the leash and be that crumbing forward, want to see more

Gillies - Not a key backman and slow, mistake

Barry - project player, needs a good coach

Taggert - worth persistence,

Hogan - sign for 8 years

Couch - slow old style football, in a good team could give something

Magner - Better than Couch but same

i feel you should go along to a game, when you get a chance to put the keyboard down

[Outside fifty 967]

I have a feeling that there won't be the wholesale clean out that some expect. I see a couple of departures and not much more. Jetta, Couch, Magner, Tynan. Davey , Joel Mac and maybe Davis. Of those I think Davis would be the unluckiest. He's one hard at it Hombre, can take a grab and has a good engine, (pity about the kicking). I think this list needs stability and another clean out could do more damage than good.

[old dee 23,788]

I have a feeling that there won't be the wholesale clean out that some expect. I see a couple of departures and not much more. Jetta, Couch, Magner, Tynan. Davey , Joel Mac and maybe Davis. Of those I think Davis would be the unluckiest. He's one hard at it Hombre, can take a grab and has a good engine, (pity about the kicking). I think this list needs stability and another clean out could do more damage than good.

I think we have to make 5 selections at draft time so the Min. is then 5.

hope that is correct.

Couch and Magnar are rookies so they don't count.

Therefore if we delete Jetta, Tynan, Davey, J Mac that leaves one more.

Please tell me that you don,t want to keep Gillies.

That would make your five and keep Davis.

I have a feeling the number will be a couple more.

[old dee 23,788]

i feel you should go along to a game, when you get a chance to put the keyboard down

DeeM I think you should take off your rose coloured glasses.

There is a big reason we are second last with two wins.

It is called a "lack of talent"

We have a large number of players that are simply not good enough.