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Whoo boy nice heated discussion going on here Before I start telling the whole story let me say that some of you are severely underestimating just how harsh and grueling the camp from last year was I'm not going to use names or specific numbers for privacy reasons Now, last Monday Goody told the playing group that the camp would be happening again this year from 18th-20th before breaking for Christmas. Immediately quite a number of players where very much against this for a variety of reasons (including players from the Leadership group), so a group approached the AFLPA to ask how to handle the situation. The MFC staff caught wind of this, so Goodwin gave a presentation last Thursday explaining what they wanted to get from the camp, and explaining that this time they will be bringing a larger amount of medical staff and ensure players were well fed (apparently the food/nutrition last year wasn't the best) Even after this talk, still quite a high number of players were very unhappy about having to do the course again. So over the weekend the Leadership group and AFLPA met with MFC Coaches/high level staff to discuss the situation, reportedly getting quite feisty at times. The club did have the official final say on the matter, and chose to call the camp off. Monday morning Goodwin gathered all the players and told them the camp was being called off due to the high number of players who raised concerns with it, and he said he wasn't angry but very disappointed because he felt they had given enough information to the players that their health and safety concerns were going to be handled appropriately. However throughout the day the players could tell Goodwin and some other coaches were indeed pretty unhappy with the playing group (when you work with people for long enough you can tell pretty clearly when they are not in the best mood) I've got no confirmation of this, but I would assume the three days of training next week before the Christmas break are probably going to make up for the lack of physical and mental work lost from having cancelled the camp. I do agree with a number of you that it is a bad look, especially when the club is in the finals drought we find ourselves in. But I also see where the players are coming from, there is a higher chance of injuries and I sure as s*** wouldn't want to do the camp, and I was in the Army for 5 years. Take from that what you will, its a pretty crappy situation overall.

Okay what the hell is all this "Goodwin has lost the players" talk?!?!? What are any of you basing this on??? The players all love and respect the ever living s*** out of him, both as a player and a coach. I laid out the facts of what happened and at the start of the Christmas break this will all be forgotten by the Players and Coaches. You all need to relax guys.

Bitter's observations Snags and coffee were very good but I managed to show reasonable restraint. Saw Hogan run a bit a have a couple of kicks. He didn't train in the main session but seemed to be moving freely. Saw the Weid but he didn't train. Neither did Trac but I was told he was there. Max looks like the world's tallest marathon runner. He took a couple of clean strong grabs in the match simulation but, in fairness, there was no opponent near his height on those occasions. Pedo also looks like he has kept off the cheeseburgers and got a couple of slick handballs away during the simulation exercise. Balic, who I have never seen before, also showed a bit. He maybe a surprise. Tmac looks great. He left the main training and finished running some laps. Jeffy looks really fit. As you would expect he showed form in the sprints and was certain in set goalkicking. I never really watched Lever before. But he did everything well and was always near the front in running drills. He gave the impression that he's going all out to show what he can do and set a positive tone and example. Very impressive. Generally kicking looked good but a couple of easy marks were spilled. The stand out for me though was Clarrie. He looked mean and lean and had very safe hands. He appeared to have more of the ball than anyone. Like Moonie above, I did not see Jones injured.

It's been replaced by the full day spa experience at Peninsula Hot Springs with a dry needling option.

Plenty of over reactions on this thread. This decision forced by the Players Association not the players as suggested will make absolutely no difference come season start. The boys are still going to be trained into the ground, they are still going to be made to hurt and sweat red & blue for our club and their team mates. This has no reflection on their desire to win, their desire to play for their gurney, their desire to move up the ladder. Internally the expectation is 15 win in season 2018. Take a couple of deep breaths, this is no biggie.

If only the EFC players had of whinged to their union...

I was at the agm tonight where president, ceo and coach all responded to a question about why the camp was canceled. I was satisfied with the explanation, and am surprised at the amount of angst it is creating here. PJ’s comments- the purpose of camps like this is to fast track resilience, mfc has put concentrated effort into this area in recent years and to cancel was not going to mess with overall aim of preseason - injuries, and loss of conditioning, were seen as significant negatives resulting from last year’s camp - coaches don’t treat players as children but address their concerns seriously. PJ is a skilled communicator and no doubt has spun this explanation to minimise the degree of heated debate and bruised egos experienced, to arrive at the decision. But really, in context of all the information conveyed to the agm, this issue is a non-issue

I think the comments on his effort, intensity and appetite and impact on the contest are off the money. In 2017, Oscar had more tackles than Hibberd and more 1%s than Hibberd and Jetta combined. His efforts to contest is what’s getting him selected week in, week out. But, each to their own. The coaches clearly love him and I love him too!

Came on to see if anyone was reporting from the final training session (that's really appreciated by those who aren't in Melbourne and can't make it) and again it's another pissing competition about OMac. Please take it to it's own thread FFS

This is a classic Demonland thread. Usual posters are negative, usual posters are positive and we have a smattering of slightly humorous comments in between. This will go round and round in circles for weeks over the off season. Well done everyone!

Got there at 10:40 for a look. Good crowd. Salem and Viney came out late for a walk around. Only saw the 3 younger draftees leaving. Absent: Tracc?, Vanders, Weeds, Hogan, McKenna, Smith x 2, Kent. DJ? Usual ball movement stuff in bigger drills. Small drills with kicking, hand balling and marking. Jeffy and T Mc did small stuff instead of main later drills Pros: Fritsch leads to space well, nice low kick. Balic can find the ball, kicking up and down but he can get in to space Clarence Wagner - I’m still a believer Flippers is a mobile big man. The academy King lad is a star in the making, won’t be for us, easy athleticism and skills. Tyson moving well Nibbler. Pedersen. Cons: Brayshaw needs a constant coaching rocket IMO. Makes silly errors, needs focus. Hannan dropping marks, has a high stepping run that should be fixed Lewis: pedestrian in one on one marking, won’t win many contests down back

I guess we could probably revisit the topic after last year’s camp where Salem & Tyson were injured & read “what a waste of time.....how unnecessary.....shouldn’t have had that type of camp ”etc ....comments there were. I remember when Collingwood with all their money were doing “cutting edge” camps in hyperbaric chambers overseas & Port had the guru fitness guy ....I could go on...fact is they didn’t win a premiership. If the players, who ultimately only play to win a premiership, feel this camp doesn’t enhance those aspirations....why wouldn’t you listen. It is their bodies that do the work so I don’t see it as a “ weakness” I admire the maturity to address what they feel is not right. Maybe if the Essendon players had addressed their concerns over the amount of needles they were receiving we wouldn’t have the “drugs saga” that stymied our game for so many years...let’s not be too quick too judge

I always wonder the point of these camps as I struggle to see the positives in starving the players, depriving them of sleep then completing rigorous training that has a high likelihood of injury doing ridiculous training regimes that [censored] the players. How can any of this be positive? It’s not improving skills, aerobic capacity, setting up game plans etc. If you’re going to give them a flogging, make it an hour longer skills session, do some extra sprints or a longer run etc. Something that will be beneficial. I recently did Kokoda mentoring a group of kids who have there challenges. From the exhaustion and minimal food I dropped some serious kgs and struggled for a couple months after. It did nothing for bonding either as we were stuffed and cranky every night. Not sure it helps that much. I think only the first year hawks do it now

This is either: a) Good b) Bad

Omac is a 21yr old key defender being built from the ground up both physically and skill wise I still expect some look away moments this season, but he is certainly not the liability to the team that some make him out to be

I was lucky enough to spend last Christmas with a Dee. He was shattered. More exhausted than he had ever been (and this was 4 days after it). His body was covered in blister ans scars that impacted on the training he was able to do afterwards. He said he hoped he would never have to do it again and he couldn't really see the great advantage it would give the team. This is from a fella that pushes his body to the limit all the time, has been through awful injuries and come back again even stronger. I am prepared to take his word for it that it didn't help his game training in any way, shape or form.

Didn't see Jones injury, must've been looking elsewhere. Nice day to watch at Gosches. Everyone trained the house down. I spoke to everyone. Highlights were seeing Lever deliver a crunching tackle to remind a team mate there are no easy possessions and observing the new slimmed down look for Gawn, pedo and others. Also the fight between the checker mascot and the poodle near the coffee tent, shouldn't give dogs caffeine. Nice bbq by the demon army. Much appreciated. ? Smaller than expected crowd. They probably told the coach they didn't want to attend. Any questions, ask.

No credit to me for this report - it is a copy of 'Proper Gander's' post on bigfooty: "Okay so I have quizzed Ancient about training today so here are the things I learned: Kent and Salem absent - probably hiding from Goody following the great boot camp mutiny. The rehab group included Hogan, Weed, Tommy - also the new dudes were separate from the main group doing some drills with Crossey and Garland, apart from the Casey guy whose name I can’t ever remember how to spell. Is it Fritsch? Anyway he was with the main group. Ancient didn’t see Petracca training at all but he must have done stuff with the rehab group early because he had a nice chat with him as he (Ancient) arrived and Trac was heading back to AAMI. He was shirtless so presumably had been running or something, unless he is just your run-of-the-mill partial nudist. Hogan and Weed had a sort of goal kicking competition which Hogan won apparently. It sounds like they were doing the same sort of drills as previous sessions. So they spent some time split into groups of defenders, mids and forwards doing things. Lewis is grouped with defenders at present. Ancient reckons Lever looks excellent, and is very vocal and encouraging and so forth. A very self confident young man. He also singled out Brayshaw and Oliver for training house down honours. There was lots of running and then some match simulation type drills, moving the ball quickly through the corridor. The general impression was that everyone looked sharp so we had better win lots of things or I’ll get angry. Apparently McCartney gave Pig a mighty serve for something or other - lots of authentic yelling and “if you don’t like it you can leave” stuff. Don’t know what provoked it, but Hibberd didn’t leave so presumably learned to like whatever it was that needed liking. That’s pretty much all the detail I have except for the report that the Santa Claus seemed creepy somehow and Daisy was having her photo taken with about a million kids". ...Thanks 'Proper Gander' - a very entertaining report.

It’s also the same line that has been trotted out ad nauseum, since 2007.... it wears a little thin after a decade

The guy wins the most no. of games in a season since 2006 and you don't think the players are galvanised and you see "worrying signs for the future" ? It's amazing what some people can extrapolate when they're not part of the inner sanctum.

Vineytime posted this after last year's camp. - Salem badly concussed at the commando style camp - Tyson injured his knee quite badly and will miss a large chunk of pre season training - Hibberd injured knee also, not as severe as Tyson. It's little wonder the players had reservations, especially as there were reports their recovery took a number of days post the camp.

And let’s not forget that if the boot camp had gone ahead and there were injuries that curtailed important players’ pre-seasons, the same people accusing the playing group here of being soft would be up in arms at the football dept for not having learned anything from last year’s debacle and would be calling for Goodwin’s head.

Not quite. No dl poster has suggested he is rhe secind coming, whereas a few posters are guilty of underrating him.

It's such a non-issue. Seriously. The players saw it coming up and were worried about things going pear-shaped as they did last year. They didn't want to ruffle any feathers, so they went to the AFLPA so find out the best course of action. They went through the right channels and the club called it off. Imagine if they hadn't listened and forced them to go. THAT would have been far worse. The players aren't complaining about anything to do with their training loads, tactics, positioning etc. They just didn't want to do a boot camp that they clearly saw no benefit in. That's fair enough in my opinion.

They didn't boycott 'Lucifer', they were asked and gave their opinion. It's good the FD are listening. The problem is you can't hand over a bunch of highly trained and well payed professional footballers to a bunch of nut jobs are not qualified to train highly tuned athletes...it was a dumb idea last year and not well handled, it might be handled better this year but still a dumb idea. We were lucky we didn't get more injuries last year.

They’ve also pulled out of playing round 1 because they don’t want to risk injury going into round 2.

Big time deja vu happening forme - players cancelled training with Dean Bailey (ref Jim Stynes book). Look where that got us! On any level this does not sit right: This camp would have taken weeks/months to schedule and organise. Were the players not consulted/told about it till last week? Doesn't sound like two-way communication was happening. Did the leadership group not sass out the players earlier? How did it come to this. Other clubs walk the Kokada track - now that is gruelling. Referring to Tyson and Salem last year is irrelevant. Injuries can happen at any time - just ask Petracca who did his ACL simply going for a mark. But we go weak at the knees at a few days at a boot camp. Sheesh! We finally ditched the 'bruise free football' label. But last year we proved the 'mentally weak' label over and over again, right up to round 23. Respect lost with 17 other teams Club talks about being ruthless. Given the chance to walk the talk and do something really tough the players back off. I'm staggered the club allowed the players to call the shots. So much for Goodwin's tough talk. My expectations for 2018 have been jolted - backwards.

Why on earth go on a so-called boot camp? Knock yourselves out boys, show me you're a man. Novices to the British army did boot camps. So did Borstal boys. We hopefully have a fine-tuned training/rehabilitation program already in place. No need for this type of macho [censored].

boot camps are [censored]. team building exercise my foot. as if 100 x 100m sprints plus all manner of other gruelling and punishing fitness conditioning doesn't bind the players together tighter than a mafia gang. better to spend the time on goal kicking practice. BUT after our atrocious finish to the season, they should be putting up their hands to run through brick walls. not worrying about what effect the mortar might have on their nail polish. they should be trying to demonstrate to each other, bugger the rest of the football world, that they are so upset, so burnt, so hungry for success that they will go through any hardship without a backward step, to leap over that final gap instead of inching ever closer to it like zeno's achilles. but here we are. the appearance is that they have run sooking to the AFLPA to try to get them off the hook! whether that's the reality or not, that is the appearance, so it becomes the reality. the leadership group need a good hard look at themselves are they swanning about town, chatting up the girls with can't-fail lines like "hey babe. i'm kind of a big deal. yeah, that's right. I nearly played in finals this year." the inmates do not run the asylum. it's a recipe for downfall and calamity in a team sport. 186. training the house down, having "not the youngest" list, getting Lever, shifting Watts .... all utter irrelevancies until this club can rid itself of the mental softness that has afflicted it for years and is apparently still going strong.

I can’t believe how accepting our supporters are of this type of behaviour. Whilst we we can debate the benefits of a camp and resilience training the main issue is the players are cherry picking when to put in the effort, surprisingly, just like in games. I have no issues hearing the players have raised their concerns after last year. This resulted in changes and was addressed by the coach and football department(in a formal briefing) but to continue the grievances to the ALFPA demonstrates the players want to pick and choose their training. It’s not up to them to decided if they see a benefit in the training (half the list is under 24 FFS) and that’s why you employee coaches. Do these same players complain when the first year players went to South Australia and went swimming with sharks and playing golf or is that okay because that’s a fun camp? Do they complain when they go to watch movies for bonding? Given the importanced placed on recovery, diet etc etc (in their excuses) then I hope non of these players drink alcohol over the break as you can’t pick and choose when it’s important and when it’s not... it was 72hrs FFS

DemonlANd Zephyr has accepted for race 7 Caulfield tomorrow. Finally received some luck with the barriers drawing 1. Mitchell Aitken has been booked for the ride, the horse comes in at 55kg but after the claim will carry 52kg. Its been over a year since he has saluted, hopefully a bit of luck comes his way. Will update further later tonight or tomorrow to see how the Zephyr is travelling.

I find the constant referencing of Oscar McDonald as Tmac's younger brother utterly bizarre. Btw, showing kick, mark and handball stats to compare tall defenders is useless. Intercept possession defenders are the most valuable in the games, as it's where attacking possessions start, and Lever was no.1 in the AFL in 2017. Rance second. Lever was also the 2nd best intercept mark in the competition behind Jeromy McGovern. This is no slight on Oscar McDonald, as he's coming on and won't be playing his best footy until at least 2021 when he's 25.

They were still one of the youngest and most inexperienced teams fielded each week. These aren't excuses, they're valid reasons for anyone that's followed footy for a long period of time. In round 23, 2016 Richmond lost to Sydney by 113 points. It affected them so badly and the signs were so worrying they won the flag the next year.

Absolute rubbish. Can't be bothered pointing out why. Except to say it is ludicrous to suggest that a player that was as poor as you are saying he is would play all season in a team pushing for finals. Ludicrous

Tyson had a sore knee at GWS, don't you know anything!

I agree. It wasn't the NUMBER of people on the MRP causing the issues. It was the people themselves applying rules inconsistently and often arbitrarily (some might also say corruptly if one was wearing a tin foil hat).

Why was there no feedback taken after the last camp? Should have been anonymous and studied. I find it difficult to believe that no feedback was sought or that it was but players were reluctant to be identified. If it wasnt reflected upon, then the coaches were not in touch or hadnt understood what the playing group had thought of it. Just sounds unprofessional or at least clumsy all around.

I don't care that it was cancelled or the reason for it, but again i think this is just amateur hour from the media department. They don't owe the fans or media any reasoning for it. I don't think many people would have even realised if nothing was said. At the most all they had to say was "We've cancelled the camp to focus on a different training approach". Even that is too much because it creates questions. Had nothing been said, would people have even cared? Or realised? Now we're once again the subject of media and fan ridicule. Regardless of the legitimacy of the reasoning behind it, and it does some like a reasonable decision to make, you simply can't ignore that to the general football world, it doesn't look good. The club's PR and media department is just full of nuffies. This is bad PR. And we wonder why we struggle for sponsors.

This is being over analysed to extraordinary levels.

well there goes the season and the coach's credibility and i've already renewed bugger

My view last year was that it wasn't a good idea and I still believe that to be the case. Interesting that despite comments to the contrary it appears the players were not that enamoured with it at all. You can't have outsiders with too much control.

Wise decision: stick to training hard on a footy field and actually improving skills and gameplan instead of this rubbish

Look forward to the Pies and Cats doing very well in Reportable incidents now.

Classic SWYL. Forget the hard yards, effort etc that they have been putting into the real stuff so far this pre-season. The players want to look after themselves after the camp bombed last year and now all of a sudden Goodwin has potentially 'lost the playing group.' Merry Christmas one and all!

The AFLPA seem to be quite a stain on the game.

“After listening to feedback from players... decided to scrap it.” It’s hardly rioting. Non issue. If North Korea decide to invade while we’re 20 points up against Geelong, this might come back to bite us.

Need more info On face value, it paints a terrible picture. Who the hell are the players to cancel AYTHING? Nope, just read the article. Bloody hell our mob are soft. Disgraceful that they pulled the Workplace Health and Safety line. Disgusted.

We do have short memories.. We forget that in 2005 he kicked 73 goals and 30 points. That is seriously elite numbers! He was absolutely robbed of an All Australian selection that year for none of then Brad Johnson..

Forgot how good he was...

The best 22 and "in form" and "playing your role" and "fully fit" message is of course bullocks. The same was said last year but what really happened. Hannan plays round one after one practice game the week before for Casey. JKH gets rushed in after injury only to play a couple of very poor games Joel Smith is selected round one after injury Joel Smith gets selected after his injury on the scantest of games and performance at Casey Cory Maynard is promoted and then dropped after one game where he was far from our worst Viney gets rushed back to the team after surgery. Others may be able to think of other examples. Some of these things worked and some didn't. Goodwin wants to give hope to everyone in preseason so these things are said. He can't ever say otherwise. Do you really think that a 90% fit Oliver will be overlooked for a one hundred percent fit Billy Stretch? Goodwin will pick the team he thinks has the best chance of winning. He'll weigh up a players form, ability, injury status and role (amongst other things) for a game and select our best team.