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I agree that we couldn't have played much worse and yet we were still in the game until the last 5 minutes. The most worrying aspect of the game was our zone defence though, with the breakdown across half forward due to a lack of defensive cover and then our defenders inability to read the play. The way our zone was carved up time and again, reminded me so much of last year. I think St Kilda will absolutely maul us, because their game style slices through our zone as easily as you like and we don’t seem to have addressed this glaring problem. Aside from Oliver who is just a phenomenal talent and continues to stamp himself as my favourite player, our better players were all well down this week. Although, Spencer was also quite good tonight. However, Gawn was ineffective around the ground and I fail to recall him taking a single contested mark. Tyson, who I love, looked miles off it tonight. As did Petracca, Hogan and Viney. I'm not sure I've seen Viney play a worse half of footy than his first. And I was in the 'pump games into Oscar McDonald' camp last year, but at the moment, he struggles massively in a zone defence. Maybe in time he'll be a damaging intercept marker, but currently he's usually caught on the wrong side of the zone. I think Frost has to play in defence against St Kilda. His pace is essential. With Lewis, Salem, Hibberd and Jones playing off half back, someone has to give. We need pace back there and Vince continues to be a liability with his momentum changing brainfades. So flashforward to a year's time and we could well see Bernie on the outter. All in all, a disappointing night and I think it could point to the continued failure of our zone defence. Goodwin and co's failure to improve this weakness is frustrating.

Apart from Oliver the standout for me was Hunt - 27 disposals, plenty of dash and a super goal.

I missed the last quarter but Oliver looked exceptional. When the main question over him has been ability to run out games and stay involved for the duration, this was an enormous step forward. The kick down Hogan's throat at the last second when he looked set to have a running shot on goal was fantastic. He can handball in traffic like nobody I've seen, but any question over his ball use by foot has surely been answered now - definitely better than average. On track to be our best player, and soon. No pressure though

I'm usually a pessimist, but I actually thought we totally dominated very large periods of the game. Our clearance work was finals quality. Now, if we could just stop kicking to the opposition.

It's probably only a small crack, but it's definitely another crack. Honestly, it would be really good if the Hawthorn Football club slid into an era of bitter recriminations and failure for a couple of decades. Remembering just how many of their fans are both soft and arrogant.

Turnovers! Turnovers! Turnovers!

The Fagan factor...no one left who can reign Clarkson in. Going to be interesting to watch how things pan out.

We are witnessing greatness, I am forever grateful to Jason Taylor for taking the risk and not just going for the pre-draft favourite in Parish.

What frustrates me is how often we get beaten as a result of giving away bursts of goals, which is clearly a problem of lapses in the zone defence and in overall play. 4 unanswered goals in 20 minutes by West Coast ended up being the difference, almost the exact margin. So many 'dead stops', failing to score, letting goals through. It's the Demon madness. It's easy to find a host of examples from last season, even if you just go by quarters, and even if you skip the less extreme cases. Round 3 - an 8 goal to 2 first quarter and 7 goal to 3 3rd quarter cost us the loss to North in a see-sawing game (well, Tasmanian wind and all) Round 6 - 8 goals to 3 third quarter and St Kilda have done that thing St Kilda keep doing to us. Round 10 - 6 goal to 1 final quarter turned a close game into a solid thumping by Port, up in Darwin Rnd 11 - failed to score a goal in the final quarter after being level with them at 3/4 time. rnd 13 - Sydney double their goal tally, kicking 6 goals to 1, turning a dreary low-scoring slog into another of our biggest losses for the year rnd 17 - 5 goals to nothing 2nd quarter sets up St Kilda for another solid win over us. rnd 18 - We're six points ahead at 3/4 time, and kick exactly 2 points in the final quarter. rnd 23 - We actually stemmed the bleeding a bit in the middle two quarters, but 8 goals against us in the first and TEN in the final quarter sure ruined the day for everyone. There's a few other results where, even when we won, our opponents kicked a full half of their final score in a single quarter. I'm not too worried about the specific result of the final game of the pre-season. It's the pattern that bugs me. Even this preseason, the Bulldogs wiped out our previous 45 minutes of work with a 15 minute burst of 4 goals late in the second quarter. Right, I've got that off my chest.

I will go against the tide of opinion here but it will be a mistake to take Spencer in to round 1... He kicked a few goals but did little else. He got caught in between a bit and offered very little pressure from what i could see on camera & made it easy for them to move the ball from defence.

So this started as a comment on 2 or 3 players and ended up a comment on every one... its kinda long so feel free to just keep scroling Hogan I felt he struggled playing in such a tall forwardline. Spencer forced all 3 of Weid Hoges and Watts to try play CHF at the same time. But hogan still slotted 2 and should have kicked a 3rd. Shaping up well for the year. Jones Not his best outing, some horrible errors took an ok game and made it a poor game. But he is captain for a reason he will bounce back. Salam I would have liked him to get the ball a little more but he was slick every time he got it. I pray he gets the run at it he deserves. he will never be labeled our best but I still think he could be our most valuable midfielder. Watts Great start but a little rust showed. For a first hitout he did enough to show why he is in our best. Some good defencive efforts although he struggled to have a large influence on the game. Will be better for the run. Hopefully they play him at Casey next week just to give him more touch. CP5 Bit of the law of averages at work for CP5 had a game out of the box against the blues then played like a kid again last night. Nothing to panic about he is still young and this was going to happen but wasnt among our best. Whats good about Tracc is he will be fired up to be better round one. Lewis Racked up the numbers and played a role without staring. If he plays like that week in week out we will be happy enough but nothing to write home about Viney Strange game from Vines. Started like he was lost. But worked himself into the game in the second half. Not a good game but the attitude of a captain to find a way to impact late showed, slotted the goal he needed to. Trenners Was clearly never part of the game plan yesterday. Will play in casey intraclub. He was an emergancy clearly i dont understand why its been made such a big deal Brayshaw Only 10 disposals was a little dissapointing but he was good when he had it (aside from 1 kick into the man on the mark). His effort to beat 2 from out of possition for the Spencil running goal was first class. Gawn Dominated in the ruck but didnt impact around the ground. I still think he is better off without spencer playing. Max in the forwardline is great but we miss him when he isnt helping around the ground. I suspect they were trying to give him the run but aslo protect him for round 1 Tyson About as rusty as they come. But walked in and picked up a lazy 24 touches in his first outing. Said in a post game interview he will play at casey next week so that will be good for him to get some touch before round 1. Oliver WOW. Turning heads early. He was our best on the night. Just makes good decisions. Using his feet more which is great. Almost walks around the ground because he just knows where to go. Stretch Needs to find the ball a little more. But he was ok. Just goes about it quietly without doing all that much wrong. Still our best wingman, Hope we can get him a partner. Melksham Best of the 3 JLT games for him. Confirmed himself for round one. Hope he will lift a little more over the year but he was good. Used the ball well at times out of the backline. I see what Goody wanted him for. But I'm not 100% sold yet. Garland Showed why he is a backup. He's going to compete every time he is out there but he will get beaten too often to be in the best team. Struggled with their height. Vince Didnt really have an influence. He is racking up clangers faster than anyone else. I wish they would just play him in the midfield where he at his best. TMac Shanked 1 kick about 10seconds into the game then after that he was good. Some great intercept marks. Showed why he is one of the better Key backs going around. Like most defenders he was caught out running forward due to our shocking turnovers but when they play attacking we are gonna have to wear it a few times. Wied Keeps showing a couple of signs a game jumped at the contest a few times but just cant seem to hang on to them. Just cant influence the game for any amount of time. Missed a goal he should have kicked. I still think they will pick him for round 1, but you could make a case either way. OMac My God this guy cops it before doing all that much wrong. He was copping abuse from the first bounce before he even went near the ball. FWIW It may intrest some to know he only had 2 clangers (not the 45 you would have thought he had reading that match thread) and toped the charts with 1%ers. He got caught out on the rebound like everyone else in the defence did. Was it a good game for him? No, not really but I feel that people just want to stick the boot in when he plays poorly more than others. No doubt that handball was embarassing but there were a few who were much worse than him. Hunt Back to his explosive best. He loved the wide open spaces. Racked up the metres gained. A few shocking kicks on the end of his runs but he broke the lines and we need him to keep doing it. ANB I still hate having him as a forward. However I admit he might have earnt himself a spot as a defencive forward come round 1. Assuming Kent wont play. If he brings the pressure against the saints rebounders he could have a big influence in that game. Bugg Racks up touches but doesnt seem to do anything either exciting or horrible with them. I dont think he is in the best team but he is probably the ultimate 23rd man. Can play anywhere we need and doesnt really do anything horribly wrong. Spencil 3 goals to the big bloke kinda hid the problems he caused. I thought our tall forwards got in each others way a bit. He is there to be a good forward but only 2 marks he just didnt do enough. I think a 3 talls forwardline is better for us. allows Hogan and Watts to go up the ground with Weid deep. Harmes Couldnt get his hands on the footy and then was pretty ordinary when he had it. I dont think he has earnt a spot in round one. I do expect he will go to the VFL and earn his chance at some point throughout the year. Overall: Well any game where you give up 22 scoring shots and 82 points on turnovers you are going to struggle. It was the difference but there were a couple of other observations: Our pressure was there at times but we got drawn a long way forward with the long ground and once they got over the top we were exposed. Some work on our spacing leading up to Subi games should help us in the future bit when we create a habit playing with our MCG spacing we will occasionally break down on the funky shaped grounds. As I aluded to in a couple of the player comments our forwardline stucture struggled being so top heavy. If we were clunking big marks we would have been fine but the fact is we were droping marks alowing it to come straight out then our wall would forced to send it straight back in. Rince, repeat until the Eagles drew too many of us forward and broke through the wall and we got slaughted on the rebound. So what happens next? We desperatly need Garlett and Kent to be ready for round 1 but i doubt the latter will be. Goodys presser makes me think Smith is a good chance to come back in as the 3rd tall defender. His athleticism will help us if not him I'd play Frost for garland but given he hasnt played yet its probably unlikely. Hopefully Hibbard plays because he brings a big improvement on our ball use out of defencive 50. My changes for round 1 assuming they are fit: 24 players down to 22 soOut: Spencer, Trengrove In: Hibbard for Harmes. - For ball use off half back In: Garlett for ANB - Simple: Garlett is a genuine small forward, the ANB is not. In: Smith for Garland - Brings the same effort with more athleticism should be better against the talls. Bugg probably goes if Kent is fit.

Saw him in the warm up before the match embrace Watts, both brimming. Looked ready to play and looked like Watts was expecting home to play too. If his body isn't broken his confidence soon will be.

As was pointed out to me today, to lose by 4-5 goals against a good team on their deck when only two players played very good games shows there's a bit to take out of the hitout. Other than Oliver and Hunt, I'd say not one other player played what they'd call a good/very good game. That's somewhat an issue in itself, as we need Brayshaw, Petracca, Stretch, Viney, etc. to start making a real impact THIS year. Top notch 21-22 year olds start making an impact at AFL level. For us to be the team we expect we need these players to start impacting games in 2017.

Don't like the wrap that Spencer is getting, hoping the coaches look at it more holistically. Yes he kicked 3 goals, but it was often just being in the right place at the right time. He didn't cover the ground particularly well, and didn't dominate the hit outs. Plus he doesn't offer much in open play with the ball in hand. Having him and Gawn leaves us waaaaayy too tall in our forward half. If we're concerned about a lack of forward pressure... well a primary reason is right there. He's clearly put a lot of effort in, and is a capable back up (who would get a gig at plenty of other clubs), but he detracts from what we're trying to do.

This is just not true.

Oscar McDonald played like Mitch Marsh on a turning deck.

That makes me more concerned about Goodwin than Jetta.

It's funny how in cricket everyone was excited about T20 cricket because of all the big hits and fast play and as a reuslt everyone was saying how Test cricket was dying. Yet after a couple of gripping Tests in India everyone is loving it again. That's how I see these new interpretations, the AFL is going for the short-term razzle dazzle that appeals to 10 year old kids with no attention span but really there is nothing wrong with a tight contest that is all about position. I'm all for fast play and scoring, but if the game is too open and too much scoring then it is boring, we need a balance of open play and contests. Yes, there have been too many contests in recent years (too many players around the ball) but these new interpretations won't really address the problem, they just create new ones.

Is this a joke? Jetta is our most reliable defender

Nope he needs time in the VFL. The 3 JTL games were perfect experience for him. Now id much rather him continue to develop in the VFL and use Pedersen/Spencer as our tall forward.

Yep, apparently 12 of their 14 goals were from our turnovers. Climate and conditions aside as both teams played them, the culprits: skill errors and poor decisions. Lots of work to do on the former, tough to fix the latter.

Everyones being a bit too bearish about the Saints game for my liking. I don't disagree that we get opened up and the Saints have been major perpetrators of that, but so much of it comes down to ball use. The Eagles cut us open whenever we missed a target as all of our players are streaming forward leaving the saints forwards behind us. When we kick it down their throats we're all caught on the wrong side of the player. Our ball use was pretty good the first two games, so I'm choosing to remain positive. Clean up our ball use, prevent the turnover goals. Simples. Oliver, what an absolute jet. The way he rides contact is beautiful, and he just moves so well. Brownlow conversation in years to come. Also thought Melksham's game was a real positive!

I'm certain Trengove would have been aware of what was going on before the game, and probably before they flew over. "Jack, we want a full dress rehearsal before round 1, so we aren't planning on using all 24 players. We are going to take you over as an emergency in case someone gets injured" Pretty simple really.

Thought we'd given away doing stupid things. Just missed perfect opportunity to evaluate him. Playing at Casey ? Fmd..are we going backwards already ?

He was probably sprinting, it just looked like he was walking.

utterly bizarre for him to travel and not play.

The biggest problem I see with the rule is that it penalises defenders disproportionately to forwards and has the potential to gift too many goals via free kicks, which when it occurs really destroys the spirit of the game as it has the potential for games to be too heavily influenced by bad umpiring.

Deemented, it took 1 post to mention Watts in a non Watts related thread, congratulations new record.

Common sense would suggest Trengove was well aware that unless there was a late out or injury during the game he would not be playing. Goodwin said we wanted to stick with playing 22 players, I'm sure this would have been stated and reiterated to the players. To think Trengove was sitting on the bench all night not knowing what was going on is just ridiculous.

I'm not sure why there's such angst. West Coast named 24 also and only played 22. Clubs are gearing up for round one and wanted to make it as similar to normal home & away matches as possible.

Perhaps you're right to an extent. But overall, the issue is with how we're entering our 50. Bombing it long to a six man pack is under 10's footy. I don't remember Gawn taking one contested mark last night. Hogan's preference to asking for it long rather than presenting forward as an option is also somewhat problematic. If we didn't directly turn it over last night, we weren't hitting the right spots, and whilst a small forward like Garlett may have been able to jag one or two, I reckon it's a secondary issue. One thing that'll save us going into the St Kilda match is that the ground is smaller and the Saints won't have as much space to work with. Subi is a long ground and part of what made West Coast look good is their running power from their half-backline through to their midfield. Yeo, Sheppard, Wellingham, Masten, Shuey, Cripps, Jetta and Gaff are all power runners. They can all cover the ground with great ease and are fleet of foot and last night they showed us up on the rebound and even from stop plays in their back-half. They were just able to get on their bikes a lot more easily than us. We have a greater abundance of slower, one-paced mids and wingers who are really strong inside. Evidenced by the fact we beat them in clearances, centre clearances stoppages and the contested possession count. Hunt, Melksham and Stretch were our power/outside runners last night. That's not enough. The Saints similarly have some strong runners in their side as well as a stronger back-line and forward-line. For us to have any chance in round 1, our D/E will have to be right up and we'll have to make sure at least one in every three inside 50's result in a score. This is providing our mids get on top. As for the Spencer/Gawn conundrum. I don't know what to think. If we do go with it, I'd have Jesse on Roo the entire night whenever he's on the wing. Jesse/Gawn or Jesse/Spencer in our forward-line just get in the way of each other. We don't need a forwardline of Jesse/Ruckman/Weid/Watts. That's ridiculous.

Bump. I thought we had tightened the weaknesses in our zone defence. It is highly vulnerable when there are a lot of turnovers and our players can't get back. Last year Ess were the first to exploit it: We got sucked into the contest, they held a player back, got the ball out, took it to the other side of the ground and easily ran it home to unguarded players. Other noticeable examples were StKilda x 2, Port in NT, Sydney and to a lesser extent the first half vs North. Last night Eagles did the same. After the Port game, Roos moved away from the zone somewhat and went back to 'defence first' principles. We didn't use the zone much after that. I just hope we know when to abandon the zone defence for a whole game (eg vs Hawthorn last year) or during a game when it is not working or when it doesn't suit the arena or weather conditions (eg vs Sydney 2016, MCG). Will be interesting to see how the year pans out.

Can somebody please gag Dermot before the season starts and keep him gagged His inane chatter and over analysis drives me insane

The sun in the eyes didn't help in the first. Naturally, it wasn't an issue in the second. This time last year West Coast were favourites for the flag. They'll be good this year. This game will be great for the coach/players to review. Despite most of our good players being underwhelming our gameplan held up. It's rock solid and will be the foundation for many wins in 2017. We're still an improving side, so it's unsurprising there were mistakes in a practice match. Notwithstanding his 3 goals I don't like the two ruck policy and Gawn is the poorer for it. It robs us of run and diminishes Gawn's role. I wouldn't play Spencer round 1.

Turnovers and poor disposal at times hurt us with Hogan's miss in the last quarter hurting us badly. We really missed a small crumbing forward who could kick a couple of goals and at least keep the ball inside our forward fifty. The WCE defenders mopped up and got the ball out of defence too easily and too often. A few things to work on but not a bad effort on the day/night.

Frost is sadly missed. Not a great player. But he is tall and really fast. Really need him for the St Kilda match.

honestly if 4/5 goal losses against top 6 teams are going to be our "pathetic" games then its probably going to be a pretty good year

I would be ropable if I were him, a really shite thing for the coaching group to do, practice match nothing on the line, leaves Harmes out there that can't hit the side of the shed, pathetic from the club, the bloke deserves better

I would add Oliver to this list...probably our best decision maker & uses the ball well.

Really poor. After the preseason he has had if he is not worth one game then why extend his contract. He deserves a kick

I'll take others word that Weed is a player for the future based on what he has shown at VFL level, but for pretty much all of the preseason comp he has given us less than Chris Dawes did last season. Given he hasn't got a game at top level yet this year I'm guessing Pedo isn't a realistic Rd 1 option. Based on output during preseason, I'd play Pencil as the additional tall option ahead of Weed.

I hope that was just plan A for defending kick ins and we have plans B + C in the bank for the real stuff. Agree it was a disaster. The saints are one of the best kick in teams in the comp so we'll soon know the answer.

So we didn't get any injuries? That's all I care about to be honest Bring on round 1

Just didn't get enough of the ball tonight.....

Bring on Round 2 for me. Saints are certainties at Etihad. They have what we can't handle, tall forwards and pace.

Trengove would give us more than ANB & Harmes who were both very average forwards tonight...little to no forward pressure and no footy IQ.

A few things - I know no one wants to hear this as an excuse as it's been the norm for the last decade, but the core of our list is still incredibly young and inexperienced. Guys like Brayshaw, Petracca, Salem, Stretch, Hunt, Hogan, OMac, Weideman and Oliver (who was absolutely brilliant) have barely played 150 games between them. I still expect them to fluctuate in form during the year. Saying that, it's clear that Weideman and OMac are still a bit out of their depth. A year or even a few months of development in the VFL would be great for their confidence and would let more experienced players such as Peterson and Frost have a good crack in the seniors. - We are desperately missing Jetta (anyone know why he's not playing at the moment?) and a small forward (Kent/Garlett). That in itself cuts about 3-4 goals off the final margin. - Watts and Spencer both showed a bit. Probably enough to justify a round 1 selection - Willing to give Tyson the benefit if the doubt. Tonight was his first real run at it since coming back from injury. He started fairly slow in the first few matches last year and ended up placing fourth in our B&F.

Lol stormed off. You sure like to exaggerate.

99% of supporters give a [censored] about Trengove.

Why on earth was he not given a run tonight?