Leaderboard

I suspect some have lost sight of what we’ve got here in Hogan. Particularly those with goldfish memories. The kid is a gun, any way you look at it I hate using stats but some find them illuminating so I’ll run a few comparisons based on Hogan’s first two seasons. Including his crappy back third to 2016 Wayne Carey could play a bit. I’ll give him a bit of a leg up and ignore his first year & compare his second and third seasons to Hogan’s first 2. Carey played 35 games in that period. Hogan 41. On average Hogan matches him for kicks (9.4). Hogan leads in marks (6.9 – 5.2), handballs (4.6 – 4.3), goals (2.1 – 1.9) and tackles (1.3 – 0.8) Jono Brown went alright too. I’ll do him the same favour, giving him his first season as a warm-up and compare his second & third to Hogan’s career to date. Brown played 44 games in that period. Hogan has him covered in average kicks, marks, goals and tackles. In those 44 games JB took 64 contested marks to Hogan’s 90. It was mentioned that Hogan isn’t “feared” like Brown was. I don’t think Brown was especially feared when he was 20. Now some may argue that today’s game is a higher possession game than in Carey & Brown’s eras and they’d be right. I’d also argue that the explosion in possessions has come in the midfield and chipping across & backwards from half-back. Not the forward line TGR mentioned Jarryd Roughead, a more recent example. Again I’ll give a free pass to Roughead for his first season and compare his second and third where he played mainly forward. He played 42 games in this period On average, Hogan leads him in kicks (9.4 – 6.4), marks (6.9 – 4.4), goals (2.1 – 1.2). Their average handballs are equal and Roughy leads the tackle average by 0.1 per game. In that period Roughy took 33 contested marks to Hogan’s 90 I’ve used the second & third seasons for these blokes to counter the argument that Hogan had been in the system for 2 years before debut and was older. If you compare their first two seasons with Hogan, he streets them. Streets them. Gold Coast’s Tom Lynch is a gun. A future champion in my view. But it took him until his fourth season to match what Hogan did in his first. A season where GC won 10 games so they were hardly spudding it up. Hogan has flaws no doubt but they are fixable in my view. He gets belted for his goalkicking accuracy but no-one complained last year when he had a conversion rate a shade below 70%. Until Round 17 this year he was tracking at 63%. Not too shabby. The wheels fell off in his last six games where he kicked 3 goals 11, dragging his season conversion rate down to 55%. To my eye his field kicking fell away in his last six games as well which suggests to me that something was amiss. Whether it be physical, mental or confidence – who knows but there was a definite decline from the earlier part of the season. Body language – yeah, sometimes not great. But so what – the goal kicking record holder at the MCG had some of the worst body language of all time. Hogan has been described by coaches & team mates as “a competitive beast”. To me it’s obvious that he has high demands of himself and gets disappointed when he fails to deliver. And sometimes he shows it. He’s 20 years old. Stats can only tell you so much. If there are posters can’t see how much ground he can cover, how agile he is, how good his decision making is in general play then short of inundating the site with YouTube clips I’m not sure how to demonstrate it. And he has got a leap as evidenced by that (albeit unsuccessful) hanger he went for towards the end of the season. He flew. Why he doesn’t use it more often I don’t know The kid is 20 years old. He has lots to learn but is already good and could well be great. Great – capital G. And he plays for us. There are posters suggesting we should cut any potential losses and trade him now. The type that can’t see the forest for the draft picks. My view is that we should be moving heaven and earth to keep him. If that means making allowances for his current personal circumstances then so be it. But holding a gun to his head and demanding his signature is dumb. Some suggest we’ll be fine without him. I’m more of the opinion that if we lose him it will haunt us like no other loss since Barassi.

It shouldnt but it amazes me rhat anyone, let alone demon fans who watch hogan week in week out could question hogans ability and status as a potential future star of the game. His first two season's he kicks 40 plus goals, top 10 in contested marks, averages not far off 20 possessions a game, reads the game beautifully, has a massive tank that enables him to get up and down the ground and run defenders ragged (yet some still persist in calling him a stay at home old school dinosaur), is brlliant on the ground (are people actually watching?), has great hands, crashes packs, is super competitive and is a pure footballer. And he is only 21! I find it even more amazing that some posters who do not rate hogan as highly as i do also seem to expect that freo or wc will give up mutiple top 5 draft picks or one of their best players, or indeed a combination. I mean we are talking professional recruiting teams that pour thousands of hours into such decisions and have access to all the data they could ever need. You cant have it both ways. If not a gun then we wont do that well in the trade. Or perhaps some posters analysis of footballers ability is better than the pros.

You'll be locked into the loony bin pal.

Good God Ron. Referencing Tom Boyd's ruck skills ? They're ordinary. But at least they get him a game. Without them he's at Footscray. Lynch is a better grab ? Yes he is, but Hogan is in the best 5 marks in the competition. You know, out of nearly 800 players. WTF would you even go there. At the same age Hogan was a better mark. Lynch is more mobile ? Bullcrap. Hogan is more creative, faster and better at ground balls than Lynch. Hogan is a far superior handballer than Lynch. Hogan was also the better player at the same age. Check the goals kicked after the same games played. Some of you flogs don't deserve a talent like Hogan.

Far out, game over already. I really feel for Geelong. BWAHAHAHAHA. Gosh, I can't say it with a straight face.

Brayshaw's one of our untouchables. He's the future of the club.

I can partially accept your viewpoint but it doesn't stack up. Why didn't they speak to and gain approval from the doctor? And even if they did (which they have never claimed) remember the 16yo gymnast who lost her gold medal at the Sydney Olympics for taking a panadol. It is no defence. You are in control of what you digest. Why didn't they seek external counsel like they are told to time and again? Why didn't they speak to a parent or close friend or manager? And if they did why did none of them raise the alarm? If I am an athlete and here the words "cutting edge supplement programme" and/or "black ops" my alarm bells would be deafening. Jobe might be a good bloke but he is a drug cheat. He should bear the punishment. The East German athletes had no say in what they were given. It is simply no excuse to blame other parties. Otherwise all of the tainted athletes would use that as their defence. 'My coach/Doctor/trusted team boss etc gave me the pills that he said were cleared by WADA' Sport cannot function that way. EFC guilty. Jobe guilty. AFL and sychophantic media appalling and disgusting support of drug cheating club. Brownlow winners: Cotchin and Mitchell

Media fawning all over Jobe Watson this morning like he's a war hero or something. Makes me sick. Sorry, not much to contribute, but really disappointed in the way his return is being framed.

What an insightful post. Something might happen. But it probably won't. But it could. Thanks.

I've decided it's all a cunning ruse by the MFC and Hogan to lure Freo into offering Fyfe for Hogan, at which point Hogan re-signs with Melbourne, and we then take Fyfe as a free agent next year, before storming to win the 2018 Premiership... Boom.

Knowing Jobe personally, I'm over reading posts like this and haven't commented a great deal about the saga because some minds are impenetrable. Dank and Hird were the perpetrators with the players being lead to believe that everything being administered was legal and the players signed consent forms stating the program was ASADA approved. It was leading edge and they were the first club to run the program. If anyone has been involved in any form of elite sport, you'd know that supplement programs are a big part of preparation, recovery and performance. No doubting this was really pushing the boundaries but to reiterate, if you're an elite level athlete who is used to supplement programs and have been told that you're about to be partaking in a program to help reach your physical potential and that everything was legal, why would you question it? Although it might sound an odd/simplistic analogy, I wonder for instance how many of those who have taken an Ecstasy pill would know what else (other than MDMA) is cut to make up that pill, and that they'd therefore be consuming. Of course MDMA is present. But I assure you it's not only MDMA. Ketamine, broken glass, Caffeine, Meth and plenty of trace amounts of other substances. The same can be said for the players who partook in the supplements program. A football club is not a Chemistry lab. And I highly doubt anyone who has even taken any sort of pre or post recovery drink really has an understanding of what it is they're consuming. Dank was trusted. Hird trusted Dank. And Dr Bruce Reid was the only one who began raising concerns about what was going on at a later date. I dislike Essendon a lot. But not because of this. Two people out of an entire club have caused this.

Is your relationship with Jobe good enough to ask him why he didn't disclose 'thymo' on his ASADA testing form? Good enough to ask him what he thought when his thighs grew to monstrous levels in such a short time span? Good enough to ask him what went through his head when he was injected in an anti-aging clinic? Good enough to ask him why Zaharakis said no? Good enough to ask him if he's one of the players who know exactly what the players took, as Heppell said he knows on AFL 360, but wouldn't actually reveal it? Good enough to ask him why some players know what it is - Heppell, but others do not - Hal Hunter? Good enough to ask him if he'll retain his brownlow if his appeal succeeds on a procedural technicality? You're in a unique position to ask some very interesting questions here.

Hasn't learned much... Just said "YES" to everything.

When you consider Geelong were able to bring in; Dangerfield Zac Smith Rhys Stanley Scott Selwood and the photographer (the year before) as best 22 players, it makes it feel so much sweeter to see them getting done so convincingly. I'd be willing to bet that Geelong wouldn't have even made the eight this year without Dangerfield.

This guy... Carey was a CHF. How many CHF's in history regularly kick 60-80 goals ? Carey was a freak then and would be the best player in the game now. And more valuable than any mid.

the players are 100% responsible for everything they put in their bodies, they're over 18 and they're professional sportsmen, it's harsh but it's that simple. the culture justification i see as being a little weak, i compare that to " all the other kids were doing it so i assumed it would be fine" that doesn't shift responsibility, just shows that these guys either tried to hide behind it, or they are quite unprofessional in how they approached it, either way, they're now convicted drug cheats and there is no way Jobe can keep his brownlow. fairest and best player in the same year he's found guilting of a doping violation.

As boring as it is to see the Swans in another granny, it is still preferable to seeing Geelong make it. Looking forward to seeing Dangerfield and Selwood cry after the siren.

I'm tipping the Swans in this one.

steve, I understand your point. There was manipulation and betrayal. We accept that but you are taking excuses to an extreme Let me just say this. There were a large number of players, from rookies like hunter to experienced leaders like jobe. There were 34 players (and if you believe hird maybe more). Of all this number, not one did an independent check nor raised the matter with anyone outside the clique. Not one consulted with the long standing and respected club doctor, reid. Not one player disclosed the injections (and other stuff) on the asada drug testing forms. Now i can accept some being duped or careless or too trustworthy, but all 34 and on numerous occasions, despite all the wada education they were given? That scale of omission is just not acceptable and cannot be simply brushed aside with your arguments

Quite funny. Barrett says we should clear Jesse if we get 2 picks under 8. He then says about Carlton, they need a key forward, but they are very hard to find. But we should clear ours, who may end up one of the best. The Eagles say they want Jesse, but won't clear Darling, as key forwards are so hard to find. But we should clear ours to them. Some people just don't think, before they speak or write.

For one they should've filled out the asada forms honestly, asada would've checked if everything was ok or, not.

It's not the person.... it is the failure to take responsibility and the playing of the victim card. These guys are full time professional sportsmen. Moreover Jobe as captain was in a particular leadership role which makes the action more irresponsible. Anyway as I said about Melksham the guys have served their suspension and deserve to return if they wish. That does not mean we should fawn over them.

My problem with that though is we just keep getting younger and younger. At some stage we need to actually stop being in a development stage and actually have a crack at it. To me, there's more to the context of this than just the actual value of the player, it's about where our club is at as well as the current situation of the league which increasingly is becoming a two tier system where the "smaller" clubs like us continually go to the draft, only to have those players leave once we get them to a stage where they're really ready to lift us up the ladder. We always talk about how good we'll be when we get our players to 100 games, so let's do that rather than continually getting younger.

Agree with the OP. The hypocrisy of the Australian media when it comes to drug taking is appalling. They brandish every sportsperson that competes for a country reknowned for it's systemic drug taking as a drug cheat, except when it's an Australian sportsperson. The problem is that they see the personal side of the Australian sportsperson, he's a great bloke etc, but that's not factored in when they're condemning a foreign sportsperson. On SEN, it seemed like all the SMS feedback they got was negative towards Watson holding a press conference, aside from Essendon supporters.

University?

Jobe Watson - guilty of theft by deception (Brownlow) - guilty of using PED's - guilty of lying when giving evidence - National hero FMD

Of course it’s selective. So’s yours. And it will remain selective unless I compare him to every key forward that’s played the game. I don’t see the point of comparing him to Royce Hart nor Richard Lounder nor Warren Ralph nor John Butcher so I’ll leave it there. As I said, stats only tell a part of the story. My opinions are formed by watching rather than stats. I remember watching Brown thinking “jeez, this kid could be anything”. I get the same buzz watching Hogan. I see his appetite for a contest. I see his judgement of the ball in flight. I find myself speculating what he would be like in a better forward structure because frankly I think ours is shite – including games we won. I’ll leave Clint Bizkit to carry the banner on that though. With Hogan, as I replied to TGR, I think we are seeing the tip, not the iceberg. But that’s based on what I see. If I’m wrong it’s far from the first time and it won’t be the last. Jesus, I thought Stephen Bickford was going to be a gun and he ended up attending more MFC board meetings than he played games ! To use some of your examples, this is what I saw Jack Anthony was a one trick pony and everyone quickly worked him out. Everyone except Freo much to Jack’s good fortune and they gave him a nice contract Travis Cloke was one of the premier power forwards in the game from 2007 to 2013. History tells us that the majority of key forwards begin to decline in their output after their mid 20’s. While he won his sole Copeland in 2007, the likes of Swan & Pendlebury have been sharing it since. Not bad competition. From what I’ve seen I’d reckon Cloke has had an excellent career even if it’s in decline as he approaches 30. I saw Jeremy Cameron pretty recently. He ripped the heart out of the Swans in a semi final. Not sure what his stats were but I thought he broke the game open. As I recall he had an injury riddled year after the one you mentioned but I still think he’s one of the best forwards currently playing Membery had an interesting year but I doubt he gets the focus that Bruce & Reiwoldt do. I’ll keep watching. Darling as I recall played as a third forward rather than a KPF. Still does to my eye. That said he’s still enjoying a fine career. Good player – can be hard to match up on. To me his output diminishes significantly away from Subi but again, that’s just what I see. Stats may prove me wrong

HAND THE MEDAL BACK JOBE

I would assume that a professional sportsperson can easily keep a spreadsheet of what they are taking. Hell they measure the spoons of pasta for the dietician. They have well paid managers that can easily run these supplements by a third party if there is any concern. Remember these guys were being injected almost every day with what they cannot or would not say. Conveniently left it off their "drug" returns when tested. It goes on and on ...... They weren't lily white children that's for sure.

hogan's ground-level ball-handling is some of the best i've ever seen for a big bloke.

This is why I think that whatever happens Hogan-wise, the administration will make sure that the club comes out of it with a great deal. There are good operators at the MFC these days.

So do I, but not as much as I hate Geelong.

Gold. What the feck are teachers getting paid for these days?

Handbags rediscovered? Two games in four weeks not lookING so good after all. I wonder if GW$ will suffer the same fate. One can but hope.

You knew you were on a hiding to nothng making that post Steve I do have a level of sympathy for the players and for your standpoint on where the blame lies. I appreciate that this whole incident points to the potential dangers of club culture. My sympathy for the players diminished however after the CAS findings, particularly regarding the players' lack of disclosure on doping control forms and general negligence. It's just too much to ignore. They've served their time for what were largely gross errors of judgement. That is the end of the matter for me. What I can't stomach is the marching parade welcome back. As Choke says, these guys aren't heroes. I personally don't consider them to be villains either, but they sure as hell aren't heroes.

The comparison between professional sportspeople taking PEDs and someone taking an E doesn't hold water. There are so many differences the two don't even stack up. Professional, counselled sportsmen desperate to succeed vs the general public taking rec drugs? Nah. I appreciate the personal sympathies towards your friend Jobe, but had he and his teammates shown some spine and simply googled the labels on the vials before signing the disclaimers, or answered the ASADA questions about what they had taken truthfully, this might not have happened. It beggers belief that not one of them googled the drug name against the publicly available list of banned substances and took a stand (Zaka excepted perhaps). The victim in this saga is the integrity of the game, not Jobe and his teammates. Ignorance is not innocence.

We expect 12 year old gymnasts to abide by the rules but not adult men because of 'club culture'. That right there is the problem and why the AFL are decades behind where they should be.

Call ASAD and get the all clear. If someone gives you something out of a non labelled vial then you don't take it, simple. If what is in the vial is not what is on the label then you sue the pants off the person who deceived you. Why has no one sued Dank?

Youre comparing ecstasy pills with going to the clinic across the road to be injected with "unknown" substances from china/mexico? Why dont you go and ask jobe your mate why they hid everything from the doctor and went off site for injections?

Absolutely. It is drummed into you that you do the check, do not trust anyone to do it for you (think Sharipova), you do it yourself. When I did the training int he 90's I was clearly and specifically told 'do not trust your coach, GP, team doctor, physio, or anyone else with what is and is not banned'. Every thing you are prescribed or asked to take you check yourself. I had a GP at the time who was great, he would call ASDA (as it was then) to check and find something that was legal and then get me to do my own check to make sure. He was onto it. The AFL in general are not.

He doesn't know, pretty hard to defend the indefensible, they cheated and imo tried to hide it, should have been banned for life to make a statement

Expect that (a) Dangerfield hasn't had serious injury issues in recent years and (b) Geelong didn't have to get rid of the best young key position player in the competition to land Dangerfield.

He's probably one of only a few in the AFL who is entitled to have a good relationship with himself.

Really? I have seen him picking up the ball on the move and dishing off to team-mates in a way that is breathtaking. Poor at ground level? No way

When?? you say that like it will happen. The AFL has their heads burried so deeply into the sand in relation to this it will take an huge archaeological dig team years to recover their remains in 100 years time.

When will elephant in the room (aka the Brownlow or Downlow in this case) be sorted? This whole saga of [censored] has become tedious and I've lost the plot as it were.

Since everyone keeps bringing up Fyfe: All of these best 22-25 players are good to go Gawn - Multiple knee recos Hogan- Season ending back problems CP5 - ACL at training! Kent - Season ending hamstring Salem - Recuring tyroid problems Brayshaw - Catchs concussion like the rest of us catch a cold Frost - Season ending toe injury Viney - Broken Fibula and Knucklebone Hunt - Severely stunted development due to recuring back issues Vandenberg - Recuring Ankle issues This guy is damaged goods Fyfe - Broken Fibula I stress that dont want Hogan to leave no matter the trade. But dont try and tell me that just because of his recent injury the best midfilder in the comp is not worth the risk should the option come up. I'm not even mentioning Trengrove in the above list despite many claiming that with 1 glorious pre-season he will one day return to the best 22. How some people can claim that Trenners will get back then say Fyfe is done I will never understand.

Hogan will sign this off-season after returning from Perth and this whole saga will be over I believe.

I met jeff at a game at Subi 2 years ago. All his kids were in Dee's colours.