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Excellent op Mr Bin. Jack's preseason form has carried through. There's well and truly enough evidence to conclude that he's turned the corner. He competes far better than he ever has. He's had the odd lapse, but in the main the effort has been great. He faded in the second half today, but had a crack in the wet and really impacted the game, which was another box ticked. He's really progressed and must be enjoying his footy. The scrutiny on him would have broken lesser individuals. It's testament to his character that he's now well on the way to finishing his career at the Dees. I'll admit that he'll never be perfect in my eyes, but he's reached a level that I'd stopped thinking he was capable of. How good would it be if he could crack 50 goals for the year ? That really would silence his many critics. I hasten to add that 40 will do ! Well done Jack. Keep going. My new avatar will be uploaded in the morning.

Oh I almost forgot. Prodee here is your avatar for the next 6 months (link address here)

I make very few threads - in fact in my time of posting I think I've only made two. I was waiting for a Jack Watts thread to pop up to post on it but it hasn't come. So here we are. For those that might have forgotten or are new to Demonland Prodee and i (and Ron Burgundy for that matter) had a bet in the preseason. It was made in November last year and to quote from my post at the time: 'I'll wager he will play more than 10 games and if i lose will take a 2 month sabbatical form Demonland. If he plays more than 10 you change your avatar for two months to a pic of Wattsy of my choosing' ProDee accepted the bet and to his credit said if he lost he would keep his Jack Watts avatar for six months. He also said to Ron that: 'I'll change my avatar to Binman's choice for 6 months from the day he plays his 11th game (won't happen) and you can dictate my signature for the corresponding period.' Well Jack played his 11th (consecutive) game of this season today and had yet another decent game. Why the title of the thread? Well whatever you think of Jack Watts one thing you can't criticise him for is his durability. Debuting in round 11 2009 jack has played 126 games of AFL as of round 11 2016. Leaving aside (asinine) arguments about whether some of these games have been gifted to him the fact remains he has been incredibly durable. Of course luck plays a part and perhaps the churlish might say his lack of competitiveness has helped him avoid injury but he clearly prepares himself well and works bloody hard. He gets very little, if any recognition or credit for this durability. Prodee's rationale for his wager was a totally reasonable one. His argument was that Roos had a put a premium on picking players who were competitive and he felt Watts would not measure up. However he got this wrong. Watts is one of the first picked. Not once has his selection been in any doubt. Not even here on DL where Wattsy's harshest critics lurk in red and blue camouflage. Watts has measured up on the competitiveness stakes. No question. If he hadn't Roos would have dropped him. So big tick there. Prodee correctly predicted he would play permanently up forward. IIRC correctly he said that a pass mark for goals would be 35 -40 (I said 30-35). Again a reasonable suggestion. Well he is on target to surpass 40 goals averaging bang on 2 goals a game this season. So another big tick. It remains to be seen how he will go in the bluey (another Prodee measuring stick – and again not an unreasonable one) but I’m guessing he’d be top 10. So a half a tick there. He is one of our fist picked and one of perhaps only 12 players who are a lock each week. So a tick there. I would like to see him average 20 disposals a game and would love for him to play a real blinder, but he has been more than serviceable and has been a key factor in at least two of our wins. So a big tick there. There was a thread suggesting he was our most important re-signing. Well that’s plain silly. Hogan is clearly our most important re-signing of those coming out of contract (though Gawn is our most important player I would argue). To suggest anything else is crazy. But as a point of reference about Wattsy’s form this this season the stats comparison to Hogan makes for interesting reading (and yes i know stats lie - i'm not suggesting he is as good as Hogan). Not much between them and I imagine Hogan just loves the service he gets from Watts. Player Statistics Comparison Jack Watts Name Jesse Hogan Melbourne Demons Team Melbourne Demons Midfield, Forward Position Forward 126 Career Games 31 Sandringham Dragons Origin Claremont March 26, 1991 Date of Birth February 12, 1995 25yr 2mth Age 21yr 3mth 196cm Height 195cm 92kg Weight 101kg 2008 National Draft Last Drafted In 2012 Mini Draft Round 1, Pick #1 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #2 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Melbourne Demons 2016 Stats for Season 2016 11 Games 11 9.6 Kicks Per Game 10.4 5.0 Handballs Per Game 4.6 14.6 Disposals Per Game 14.9 6.3 Marks Per Game 7.4 2.0 Goals Per Game 2.4 0.6 Behinds Per Game 1.7 1.3 Tackles Per Game 1.2 1.6 Hitouts Per Game 0 2.9 Inside 50s Per Game 2.6 0.9 Goal Assists Per Game 0.8 0.6 Frees For Per Game 0.9 0.9 Frees Against Per Game 0.4 5.6 Contested Possessions Per Game 6.6 9.4 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 8.7 12.0 Effective Disposals Per Game 9.8 82.2% Effective Disposals % Per Game 65.8% 2.6 Clangers Per Game 1.8 1.1 Contested Marks Per Game 2.4 2.1 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 3.4 0.1 Clearances Per Game 0.1 0.4 Rebound 50s Per Game 0.4 1.4 One Percenters Per Game 1.6 0 Bounces Per Game 0.3 82.3 Time On Ground % Per Game 91.3 $393,000 AFL Fantasy Price $448,000 74.7 AFL Fantasy Score Per Game 83.0 $402,500 Supercoach Price $446,500 71.6 Supercoach Score Per Game 80.4

It's all over with Casey winning by 35 points. Casey Scorpions 2.6.18 3.9.27 6.11.47 12.14.86 Port Melbourne 0.3.3 4.4.28 7.8.50 7.9.51 Goals Casey Scorpions Kennedy 3 Hulett Spencer Terlich 2 Michie Pattison Weideman Port Melbourne Scipione 4 Sandilands 2 Rivett Best Casey Scorpions Kennedy Hutchins Keilty Spencer Hulett Michie Port Melbourne Crocker Haretuku, Mascitti Sandilands Dickson L Tynan Disposals Kennedy 30 Newton 27 Grimes White 24 Neal-Bullen

I'm sure there's already a thread for these self obsessed 'media' commentators but honestly how unbearable are McLachlan, Zempalis and Watson? COMMENTATE THE GAME YOU FLOGS. Don't give an analogy for every single play that happens, stop calling puopolo "poppy" he's not your mate Hamish, Zempalis stop fawning everytime cyril get's the bloody ball and Watson start calling it as it is you weak commentator. Oh, Basil, Jack Trengove. NOT JACKSON, JACK. Not Bernie Jones, BERNIE VINCE. Hamish McLachlan annoys me the most. Self obssesed latte sipping [censored] who is the type of bloke who wears 2XU tights on a sunday morning coffee without shorts on. We don't care that your brother is Gill mate, your as pompous and self absorbed as he is. Channel seven are a disgraceful bunch. Would rather Brett Phillips and the SEN or Triple M commentators any day of the week. Rant over. Go Dees.

BenKen for Kent makes the most sense imho...

Oscar Mac just cracked a bourbon can and poured it over ice.

No. Harmes has looked spent the last couple of weeks. Ben Ken for Harmes is a much smarter decision.

There is another group here that believes getting some games into quality but inexperienced kids is better in the long term than playing experienced but average players in the short term. It's got nothing to do with 'not wanting to win', or 'reverting to Mark Neeld or Dean Bailey', or 'mediocrity', or 'accepting losing'. It's got everything to do with building a solid playing group in the next few years, when our real chance for a premiership occurs (which let's face it won't be in 2016 or probably 2017). Like everyone, I'd like to play finals this year, but I still have my sights set on future ambitions. I don't want to be Richmond and become a shooting star, only to have it all crash down to earth because of delusions about progress and the state of the list. Short-term pain for long-term gain.

They moved Michie into the middle in the last. Was a real arm wrestle until this move. His pass to Hullett (who was terrific today btw) in the last qtr was brilliant. Pedo in the last quarter was courageous. Really put his body on the line. Kennedy was awesome all day. White was good and Number 1 for Casey was terrific down back. Real old fashioned footy and I thought pretty well umpired given the conditions. JKH looked like a player coming back from a layoff. Reckon Kennedy is a certain recall but no one else really stood out but the conditions made standing out very difficult. Cannot understand why they did not turn the lights on at the start. Could not see the other side of the ground in the last half of the 1st quarter. Kennedy has a natural advantage given his size and in my humble opinion would be an auto selection for days like yesterday. Bacon rolls were excellent today.

Jake Spencer goals. Casey 62 - 50.

Doubt that Garlett would get dropped for a big occasion game like QB.

I haven't read the to and fro of the last page, but the Oscar vs Weideman thing is ridiculous. Oscar is a second year defender who had consistently performed well in the VFL for the past season. He has shown ability in the AFL before, fills a need as a mobile zoning key defender and his will improve filling that role at AFL level. He is replacing someone who is clearly struggling with the new game plan. Weideman is a first year player who is coming off a limited preseason, and barely played at all last year due to injury. He has shown good signs at VFL level, but no more than that. Currently he'd be filling the role of Watts, who is performing well at AFL level. The argument is ridiculous.

You've heard it plenty of times before, but it doesn't make it any less true. When you see figures like Melbourne's total list experience being 2268* games as opposed to Hawthorn's 3377* or North Melbourne's 3993*, or Melbourne's average age being 22.3 years and games played 30, do really think we can just get up there and match it with other teams? It's a process that will still take time. Impatience leads to rash decisions and reliance on old structures and habits, not building a solid foundation, which is what the coaching staff are trying to do. The difference in the past has been the quality of the list. I bleieve the quality now exists and is a quantum leap over a few years ago, but the experience doesn't. I want to follow the Bulldogs and the Giants into the finals for sustained results, not have another false dawn, take shortcuts and end up like the Tigers. We will pass teams like Hawthorn on the way up soon enough, but continual negativity about not winning and the mistakes made by young players, rather than positivity about making progress, doesn't help. Maybe the 'veil of negativity' is yet to be really lifted. * Total list experience at the start of 2016

So Ben Ken kicked 3 and had 30. Great effort after being dropped

Thanks to KC and Siren in advance, at work, the constant updates are really really good, appreciated

We've actually played well against North, Bulldogs and Hawks. Our most disappointing losses have come against the Bombers, Port, and Saints. If we played those three the way we player the former trifecta, we'd be 8-3. Not sure about you folk but I'm learning a lot about this team this year. We have the cattle now. It might take another 12 months but we have the cattle.

There are brief moments when the alcohol hasn't warped his brain and he has the common ability to make dull footballing observations like all the other intellectual plodders here.

He's been fantastic this year. A different player. All credit to him, nobody has ever been under more pressure to perform than poor Watts. He has been bashed for his entire career and rather than letting it break him, he let it make him. If that doesn't make him a tough bastard, I don't know what does.

Yesterday. Hawks had 26 tackles in forward 50. Us, a total of 8. A summary of the 3 main forward players efforts for both sides. Hogan, Garlett and Watts combine for a grand total of 3 tackles. All 3 to Garlett. Puopolo, Rioli and Gunston combine for a mere total of 26 tackles between them. Last week we had a total of 4 forward 50 tackles. Pot had 12. Our forwards have a lot to answer for. Must be like downhill skiing for opposition defenders.

In: Kennedy, Grimes and White Out: Harmes, Kent and O. McDonald FB: Jetta Frost (Cox) Wagner HB: White (White) McDonald (Cloke) Bugg C: Stretch Oliver Tyson HF: Petracca Dawes Watts FF: Garlett Hogan Kennedy Foll: Gawn Vince (Pendlebury) Jones Int: Trengove vandenBerg Hunt Grimes

Geezus what a shithouse post

Lucas Cook with a pin point pass to Hulett and another goal to Kennedy 27mins gone. Sting gone out of the game

Hulett gets a goal and the game is just about over.

Apologies

And yet the bourbon missed the glass

That's nice. I was surrounded by smug Hawthorn a-holes who continually whinged about the umps. Three flags in a row and all they could do was whinge about the umps. Did I mention I hate Hawthorn?

You've posted more lately and with great distinction. All power to you. You've more energy than me. Sadly you won't get anywhere. Haters just want to hate.

People are so caught up on speed. Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge none quicker than trenners, Scotty Thompson, swanny no quicker. All champions. Blease, Lewis Jetta etc all much quicker... He uses the ball well and competes. As long as he picks up the game plan and plays within his ability he will be a bloody good footballer for us. His fitness base is so far behind everyone else it's not funny. Next year after a full pre season we will see Trenners as a very valuable player for us.

- Tyson was exceptional. Clearly BOG at 3/4 time until he ran out of puff. - Bernie Vince, thank you. We've been bullied by these pr**cks for 10 years but he wouldn't stand for it today. Beat Mitchell comfortably and dumped him and belted him to the ground every time he could. So nice to see the Hawk players get chirpy at him; he rattled them. - Their class, bigger bodies and nous won out in the last quarter...example being Breust v Wagner in the forward pocket when it was a point the difference. Wagner just had to clatter Breust and knock that ball out of play but let him keep it in, leading to a goal to the head ducking first gamer - Cyril is a freak. That crumbing goal at the start of the 2nd quarter was magical, took a super grab in the last and his tackling was superb. Garlett on the other hand.... - Birchall is a very smart footballer. Zones off to the right spots to intercept and always uses it well. - If Trac spotted Trengove in acres of space about 30m out from goal when we were 7 points down in the last instead of kicking to Dawes in the pocket, it would have been game on. Can you imagine the lift it would have given them if Trenners goes back and nails it from 30m out with 8 mins to play? - Speaking of Dawes, he dropped a couple he should have taken but also had a couple where his arms were held that were clearly frees...the most costly one being the one in the last. I thought overall he was ok, his tackling is good and he'll be better for the run. - Maxy tried hard, some of his taps to Tyson were superb but just couldn't clunk any marks today in the wet conditions. - Hogan also tried hard but is dropping a couple every week that you'd normally expect him to guzzle...first quarter an example when he dropped that chest mark having done all the hard work. - Harmes and Kent should have been dropped. Kent was ok today without being great but Harmes needs a spell. - TMac had a better second half but at times he's just not physical enough in his spoiling attempts,...and that "effort" in the 3rd quarter when he just had to take the ball out on the Members wing instead of overrunning it was terrible. I just wonder how much that shoulder is bothering him. Oscar was pretty good today but will still have his moments as a young player - Liked Frost in the backline. Like others, needs to improve decision making at times. - Hunt and Wagner were good for the most part, been very handy additions and will only get better. Wagner is generally pretty composed with the footy. - We need more pace! - Geez I hate Gunston. - So sick of them whining about injuries. Roughy is a big loss, as is Hodge but other than that who else do they have out of note? Their guns never seem to miss at finals time so quit whingeing, you're not the only team who has injuries and plenty of others have more than you!

Jeffy had opportunities yesterday but he stuffed them up. He could have had his regulation 2 goals with a tad more poise. We don't drop a two goals per game forward on the back of one bad game! I'd bring in Kennedy for Harmes.

Thought Frost was exciting down back yesterday. Sure he had some decision/disposal howlers but his size, athleticism and speed are incredible. If he can get development into his deficiencies he can be a very serious threat. Also think that we need to use Hunt's run more. Give the ball to him from marks and frees behind the centre and get him to run and kick over the lines. His kicking is iffy but if he can see a set up where we are not outnumbered deep forward he should be given licence. I don't mean the round the back like Mitchell who has great kicking skills, I mean straight ahead running from behind.

The wheels are slowly turning and we are starting to become a strong side. We play them again in round 20 and if we don't beat them then we will definitely get them next season. It will be so sweet over the next 5-6 seasons when we start beating them by 10 goals, I hate their smugness. We've got the right young players we've just got to persist with them through the good and bad. Definitely need to look at bringing in established talent in the off-season to complement the youngsters, Prestia, Hurley possible targets and we really need to bring one of these guys in! The thing I really enjoyed is that we no longer look intimidated and we took it up to them physically. Incredibly it was a lot of the younger guys who enjoyed doing this which bodes well for the future. It's frustrating at the moment but I can really see the direction and have a great feeling about the next few years.

A hell of a lot to like out of that game. Vince, Jones, Tyson, Oliver, Gawn were great. Petracca is showing more and will steadily get better and show more magic. Watts had the best attack on the ball i have seen from him. He is also trying to take them on. I am happy for him to do this as much as possible. He was quieter in the second half in terms od disposals but what he did was mostly great. Despite getting 19 possies, I think Trenners will have to adjust the way the game has increased in tempo since he last played. I am hopeful he is smart and determined enough to become a valuable player again. Hogan, Jeffy and Harmes didn't do enough but we still had scoring potency, not enough, mind you, but we were still in that game until about halfway through the final quarter. Jetta continues to be our most reliable and smartest defender. Frost is an athlete and not a footballer but I think he is worth persisting with in the backline providing the coaches give hime very clear tuition. He does need to learn how to kick. Stretch is a bit too light but goes in. What I like about him is he has, discipline, footy smarts and doesn't do too much wrong. I feel good when he has the ball. Dawes was not great but again I would expect that he will get better and the forward structure looks potentially better with him there. We were harder at the contest than the Hawks for most of the game, in without Viney. Albeit, the wet day did suit our slower inside mids. Considering the players that were down, I think we did alright. The young players witnessed Hawthorn demonstrate how to win tight games. Hopefully the coaching panel points this out. Our young brigade are different from the list who experienced humiliating defeat week after week. They need to learn from Hawthorn, the Swans etc. and will. I was very disappointed to lose it but think we are moving in the right direction.

For me the greatest oddity about the game was how we were kept in it by the consistently outstanding efforts of only 3 players - Vince, Tyson and Jones. Gawn won hit outs but the conditions did not suit big mark taking around the ground. There were however, enough cameos from a number of players to give me great confidence for the upcoming game against the filth. Ollie choo choo and Petracca both continued to give glimpses of the players they will become. Omac showed a bit and I'm guessing he will continue to be persevered with. His more experienced brother still causes heart flutters from time to time. Trengove did enough to suggest that also will become a fixture in our midfield rotation. He will only get better. Hunt and Wagner add to the list of players who simply need more experience. Our forwards were poor but, again so was much of our delivery. Dawes was off the pace and continues to be an enigma. He is a terrific runner and competitor but his marking is poor. However, if reports about Pedo and pneumonia are correct then Dawes will have time to reestablish himself and find some form. At his best he is creative and damaging. Jeffy was very poor and also did not like the slippery ball. However, is the type of player who will bounce back and kick a bagfull. It may well be next Monday.

I hope Grimes plays well. Id bring him in for Harmes to play that Wing/half forward. What you will get from Grimes is pressure acts and tackling and he will give you genuine 100% effort. Harmes is starting to really tire out now and Grimes is the perfect replacement.

Here he comes, Sheriff Saty, riding in on his horse to have a crack at fellow posters!

To sum up this thread: Group 1: "I don't think Oscar McDonald should be the in team at the moment, he needs more time to develop at Casey and there are better ready-made options available." Group 2: "What do you mean Oscar McDonald is a dud, will never make it and we should delist now before the end of the season?"

Check out Bernie's response!

What are you on? Seriously! You need to go have a lie down and or sober up. He played well today didn't star but worked into the game 19 touches and was blowing a bit by the end but will be better for it. Jack is 24 years old. ffs and you have already put a line through him, that's just sad.

Just looked at the AFL statistics from yesterday's game which are quite telling: a) Both teams had similar possessions yet we had sixty extra handballs vs their sixty extra kicks b) The Hawks had twice as many marks as us (80 vs 40) c) The Hawks had over forty extra tackles to us ( and 26 vs our 8 inside 50 tackles ) This seems to send a message about "kicking the ball" and "forward pressure"!

Definitely agree on the difference between talls and smalls. IMO, OMac's first few games have been well below the standard seen in those you've named except Watts, who we all can admit was debuted too early, which is essentially how I feel about OMac right now. I understand that the FD wants to get games into the players it sees as taking us to our next premiership, and Dunn is likely not one of those, but I just do not think OMac is worth his spot in the side at the moment. Good luck to him if he continues to hold his spot. We all want him to become a new FB for this team going forward. I just, currently, think he should be developing in the VFL not the AFL.

I still really miss Clinton Grybas. All downhill since then.

And his first game of the year, after a chronic calf injury, played in the wet. In my opinion, Dawes' presence will make JH even more dangerous. Cannot believe anybody could possibly believe it be reasonable to bag Dawes, after his first game for the year in tough conditions

Nathan Jones commented after the game that he was pleased to see Dawes back as he brought so much to our structure. I think Nathan carries a bit more weight to team selection than you do.

I don't know about anybody else, but I absolutely lost my [censored] when that [censored] #40 got that free right in front for an absolutely blatant duck, scores level 5 minutes into the last quarter.

On a wet slippery day Dawes dropped more marks than Gawn and Hogan combined. There's 2 ways to interpret that. I think he got to more contests. Trying to remember a worse game than Garlett's today but none come to mind. That "marking" effort! I guess it went over his head?

I can remember a Life Member of Richmond asking me once whether James Frawley would make it and I said he would. Development and Patience. DId the Mc Donalds Grandfather pinch all the sheep of'f some of you people, because some of you would blame them for Jesse Hogan missing a goal at the other end of the ground ( was it OMac who caused him to have an airy) or Jack watts fumbling a handball. Let us be fair, today's conditions were very difficult. Only 12 months ago you were spruiking Tmac as AA, now you are blaming him for howard invading Iraq. I know stats can be interpreted in different ways. TMac and OMac (THE TERRIBLE TWOSOME) were two of our highest possession getters plus were 1 & 2 in 1 % plus were high up in % Effectiveness. If they were getting so many possessions, required to perform so many 1% ers then somebody else must have been stuffing things up further up the ground. FWIW I thought MFC played pretty well today against the current Premiers X 3. Fair is fair. !!! I think David Neitz was the last KPD to march straight in and take the game on as a teenager ( apart from the current bloke at Caaaaaaaaaaaarlton)

Gratefully was able to attend today meaning I got to avoid McLachlan and Zempilas. Hamish McLachlan is, IMO, the worst AFL media identity going around. Hopeless commentator, knows little to nothing about the game, speaks in cliches and platitudes and yet turns up every bloody game Channel 7 shows these days. 7's focus on status, history and side-stories detracts from the actual game. I'll bet Rioli was talked about all day. He had 11 touches and pretty much no influence at all.