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Presenting The Ollie Whines Lounge. A place where all the ollie whiners can come to mingle. What's that? Ollie Wines had 46 disposals, 18 clearances, 14 tackles and kicked 7 goals? Need to cry into someone's shoulder? This is the place for you. Forget creating new threads to tell the world how angry you are. Forget "gee that Wines kid goes alright, thanks Mark" in every second thread. This is your one stop shop for the great big sook. In The Ollie Whines Lounge, you can bleat and moan to your heart's content, free from the judgement of others. Never again will your insistence that you "knew Wines would be a star" fall on deaf, uninterested ears. Enjoy our unrivalled selection of tissues and hard liquor. Relax on our vinyl couches where the tears just roll right off. For the dead eye dicks, you will find our dart boards, each with a bullseye featuring either Mark Neeld or that awful Jimmy Toumpas. Show your friends who really wanted Wines more. After hours and feeling that impending mix of sadness and anger? Retreat to our Self Flagellation Room (proudly sponsored by BBO). Whine in comfort and style in The Ollie Whines Lounge. And when you leave, please, for the love of god, shut the [censored] up about Ollie Wines.

Pert invited Roos his mate to talk to HL. he knew they were into MC. Eddie surpisingly for a media man has not said one word on MC. Doesn't want to be seen as a [censored] for stealing a bloke that MFC has bent over backwards for. Chris Scott very quiet today when he said he would love Frawley to play for the Cats. Wonderful competition where the rich and successful just pillage the poor and weaker teams. The AFL hierarchy should be ashamed of what they have created. Do they think if a team is incapable of improvement under these conditions, people will just give money, support and blind loyalty forever?

There are some people who adapt quickly and who thrive in a new environment, others who take their time and yet others who never realise their potential when the time comes to step up. Wines has been one of first category but the jury remainsl out on Jimmy who is still only 20 years of age. In November, 2012 most judges rated Jimmy Toumpas ahead of Ollie Wines in several areas and I would suggest that at least ¾ if not all of the AFL's recruiting officers would have taken Jimmy ahead of Ollie. There were question marks about both of them. Jimmy was the creative and brilliant youngster who already had senior experience and had been instrumental in a SANFL premiership with Woodville-West Torrens. He had leadership and good character written all over him. He had also recently had surgery on both hips but before that had a brilliant national under 18 championships behind him (hip injury notwithstanding). The experts rated him second best prospect in the draft. Ollie was a big bodied man child whose national championships were good but he was no sensation. The big question was whether or not his strengths would be negated when he took the step up to play with the men of the AFL. When it came down to a choice of selection, our recruiting team headed by Todd Viney (who knew Ollie well) made the call in favour of Jimmy. The club already knew that it would select Jack Viney as a father/son and decided on Toumpas as the better credentialed player at that time and who it considered also best filled the mix of midfield player it badly needed. As it turned out, Wines came into a favourable environment for a young player. Port had a new board, new coaching panel, new fitness guru, a united club with good strong leaders and an infectious ring of confidence around the club catapulted the team up the ladder faster than anything seen in this modern age of the game. It was the perfect environment in which a young Wines was able to thrive. The contrast at Melbourne was obvious. Toumpas was hampered by that as well as the fact that his initial hip problems held back his first pre season and his development. Injury and illness have done likewise to his second. Despite the fact that there are rumours that he (like everybody else on our list) is on the trade table, we won't know how his career is going to pan out for a while yet, so let's see how he goes with a full pre season behind him in 2015. Full credit to Wines - he's exceeded all expectations but that's by no means the fault of our recruiting people. He also happens to have achieved a lot more in his two years than Lachie Whitfield, Jonathan O'Rourke and Lachlan Plowman who were picked 1, 2 and 3 ahead of Wines as well and I don't hear people tearing strips off SOS, the GWS recruiter responsible for their selection (or, since the usual suspects find it necessary to use this as another issue to pillory Mark Neeld over, Kevin Sheedy who was the coach at the time). Incidentally, we had picks 3 and 4 at that draft so we could have taken both Toumpas and Wines but instead chose to trade pick 3 for the GWS mini draft selection that secured Jesse Hogan and also helped get us Chris Dawes, Dom Barry and ensured that Jack Viney would cost a second round draft pick rather than a first. Wines has had a relatively injury free career to date and a clear ride into a team now in its second finals campaign. The Melbourne players have endured a rocky road but history tells us that circumstances can change in sport. I know this sounds like an old war story and our coach recently said we should look forward and not back, but in 1953 Melbourne finished a dismal second last. A year later, swept up on the back of some inspired recruiting and a great coach in his second year in the role, we made a grand final and a year after that won a flag. None of us can say that will happen again just as none of us have the power to go back in a time machine to change the result of the 2012 draft so why agonise endlessly over the situation? Roos is right on that score. It's time to look forward.

I'm loving the irony of Brendan Goddard complaining about clubs targeting certain Bombers' players while there is unrest at the club. How can he say that with a straight face while Hird is sniffing around Clark?

THE BREATH OF LIFE - DRAFT ASSISTANCE by Whispering Jack How poorly does a team have to perform before it qualifies for draft assistance under the current AFL rules? Nobody really knows the answer because the outcome of an application is based on vague guidelines. The AFL Commission is due to draw on these when it determines Melbourne's latest such application at its forthcoming meeting next week. We do know that an application by the club was rejected last year after a number of clubs objected, mainly on the basis of how could the AFL allow such a thing so soon after the so-called "tanking" enquiry (so much for the independence of the AFL Commission)? We shouldn't forget that the two clubs who raged loudest against Melbourne last year were Hawthorn and Collingwood whose presidents joined then AFL CEO Andrew Demetriou on a trip to the United States to study issues surrounding "equalisation" of sporting competitions. Talk about Dracula running the blood bank - the first thing Andrew Newbold and Eddie McGuire did when they stepped off the plane and onto the tarmac at Tullamarine was to complain loud and hard about giving any AFL draft assistance to a team that won only two games in season 2013 and four in the year before. Never mind that their own clubs gratefully accepted priority picks less than a decade earlier which helped land both of them premierships. The Hawks won four games in 2004 and, as a result picked up Jarryd Roughhead at selection 2 (with Buddy Franklin at 4) in that year's national draft while the Magpies snuck in with five wins in 2005. Their priority pick at 2 was Dale Thomas (they got Scott Pendelbury at 5) and nobody made too much noise about the fact that they somehow managed to lose the last eight matches of the season to get their prize. Carlton managed even better when they snared the priority pick three years in a row culminating with the Kreuzer Cup of 2007, completing the "grand slam of tanking" after they lost eleven in a row to finish the season. Yet, Demetriou continued to publicly maintain that there was no such thing as tanking in the AFL. The rules have changed and clubs now need to plead a special case to obtain draft assistance. Melbourne's plight over the best part of an entire decade is well known. The events that led to the "tanking" affair took place in 2009 and the club is under new management making early inroads into its precarious on field situation. To raise that issue again as a bar to assistance five years later would be unconscionable. How many times can a club be punished for doing the same thing, especially after the stronger, more established AFL clubs got away with little more than a cursory look? No, if the AFL is to act responsibly in dealing with Melbourne's application, it must do so on its merits and not pre judge it as Football Operations Manager Mark Evans did recently when he cast doubt the application's chances of succeeding. So while a mere four or five wins was no long ago considered enough to merit a priority pick for the likes of Evans' most recent club Hawthorn, Collingwood and on multiple occasions Carlton, Melbourne has to go begging to the AFL after nine losing seasons and on ten wins in the last three years or an average over that time of just 3⅓ wins per season. The thought is a vulgar to me as the fraction at the end of that number. Melbourne is a club that had no nominees for the 2014 Rising Star, no players in the recently announced AFL Under 22 team, no players on the forty man All-Australian shortlist and not surprisingly, received no mentions at last week's MVP. Melbourne has been one of the hardest hit clubs in terms of recent AFL innovations including the rules relating to the introduction of the new franchise clubs and free agency. Tom Scully was taken when barely out of his teens for compensation that is barely kicking in four years later. The club has lost Jared Rivers, Brent Moloney, Colin Sylvia and most likely now, James Frawley to free agency. Again, it will take time to determine whether the compensation for their loss turns out to be fair and equitable. On top of that, the Demons have been struck blows from unforeseen places to players who under normal circumstances would be close to marquee items, helping to win games and draw crowds to its fixtures. I refer here to Mitch Clark, Liam Jurrah and Austin Wonaeamirri who, but for their extraordinary, sad and well documented circumstances, would be leading a formidable Melbourne forward line capable helping the club to kick winning scores instead of the lows to which we have become accustomed of late. And you can't blame poor administration or coaching on these things. Last year, one of the reasons given for not awarding draft assistance was that the club had the likes of Jesse Hogan in the wings and Clark returning from injury. Look how that turned out! If the AFL is at all serious, it will realise that the Melbourne Football Club is crying out for help and that it must endorse its claim for assistance by giving it an early first round priority pick commensurate to that which was given to Hawthorn, Collingwood and Carlton and the incredible concessions given to the new franchise clubs in the recent past. Such a boost will help the club's efforts to rise beyond just being competitive and save it from the cruel death meted out to the Fitzroy Football Club two decades ago. If the AFL values its integrity, it will deal out a fair and just result to Melbourne's application for draft assistance to give it the breath of life it so sorely needs.

I think we just need to have universal agreement from every Melbourne supporter that we stuffed this up massively so we never have to talk about it again.

Great article on one of the most exciting and colourful players ever to wear our guernsey. He was absolutely electrifying in 1994 when he was destined for greatness.

Agreed red leg, it's just pathetic - we are continuing to be pillaged. But if we request help? Nah, don't deserve it - we've only got ourselves to blame!

I agree. Toumpas looks okay to me. His greatest crime appears to have been in being selected ahead of Ollie Wines. Hardly his fault, and not the only player in that draft to be selected above him. In fact, it'd be interesting to know who Port would've selected with pick 4 if they were in our position. As we all know, all the clubs had Toumpas going ahead of Wines on draft day. That Wines would now be selected ahead of most in the league is a completely different issue. Edit. Typo

Sounds a bit like a Michie scenario. If he wins the footy and hits targets then he potentially pushes out one of our bottom 6. Find some stars in the drafts and trades and get as many AFL standard players for nix as possible.

It's actually an absolutely ridiculous suggestion. Think about it, what would St. Kilda achieve by forcing us to take him with our 1st pick? One more player available for their 2nd pick. That's it. This draft is so even that it's not even worth considering it. The reward does not represent the potential risk.

Apart from his talent, love his passion for the club that continues to this day.

Not to mention the way they got him.

Darling, Shuey, Martin, hell, some fool even suggested we dudded ourselves with the Tyson trade because 'we could have drafted Lewis Taylor'. Some people will always sink into the second guessing and ever so superior hindsight. I really hope this thread works and keeps that sludge out of the main threads.

I don't think Toumpas has played half as badly as people on here have made out. A few times he's looked a bit of the pace but often he makes brilliant decisions and has great skills. He's often involved with scoring ball movements. Do I wish he showed a bit more dash and pace? Yes. Do I wish he got more of the ball? Yes. But seriously he's played a handful of injury affected games for a hideous team so I'm not worried at all. Earlier this year Roos said he was treating Jimmy as a first year player as his first year may have actually done more harm than good. If he gets a full preseason and gets through next year relatively injury free and we still aren't seeing something, then it might be time to be legitimately concerned. For now, I like the kid and I particularly like what happens when he gets the ball. Well done to wines who I enjoy watching and who doesn't play for Melbourne and seems somewhat irrelevant when discussing our team.

BTW, does anyone want a coffee? I'm making one.

The argument must centre on the thinking at the time - none of this hindsight rubbish. Poll - Wines or Toumpas WELCOME TO THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB - JIMMY TOUMPAS In all manner of fairness, those who believe we "should have" picked Wines have an obligation to read the 2 threads I've posted above. When you do, get back to us with your thoughts. However, I don't expect any of the incessant "moaners" to read those threads because (A) They've made up your mind already and (B) They won't change their mind because that will mean they'd have to stop moaning. The facts and the data was all in at the time and for our club to pick Wines over Toumpas would have gone against the conventional thinking at the time. Now, because the draft is flawed anyway, it's all rather academic isn't it? Oh, and by the way, Robbie Gray (who was arguably best on ground last night) went at pick 55 in the 2006 draft. Again, if you want to remain consistent, you need to moan just as much about that "supposed" mistake. Maybe more so but this time, can you include every club - including his own club. Let's broaden the argument instead of narrowing things down to suit an agenda. There's Goodes at 43, Black at 31, Chapman at 35, Stevie J at 24, Dangerfield at 10 ... it's a very very long list. With regards to picking Toumpas, we made what was perceived to be the right decision at the time and that's all that matters. Nothing can be changed back and if a similar scenario were to happen again, I'd expect history to repeat itself. Should we pass on Petracca? Finally, anyone who doesn't think that the draft isn't at least slightly flawed is delusional. I firmly believe that the draft is a lot more than slightly flawed and the evidence is right there in front of us.

A lot got it wrong. GWS more than anyone. What gives me the irrits is [censored] on here carrying on like it was an obvious oversight. Whitfield (clearly ahead) & Toumpas were touted as 1 & 2 from along way out Re-do that draft with 20/20 hindsight and Ollie goes No.1. He is a mile ahead of Whitfield at the moment. O'Rourke ? Plowman ? Both have done even less than Jimmy T. He's a ripper young Ollie & I'm going to enjoy watching him - hopefully for two more finals this year As an aside, the infamous poster Picket Fence gives me the [censored]. He bangs on ad infinitum about his chosen few topics, is often wrong and I suspect is quite mad. Nonetheless he was steadfast in his belief that Wines was the player we needed to take. Well before the draft. So when he pumps up Wines & mourns our not taking him - fair enough. Credit to PF, he saw it & called it early unlike most of the hindsight heroes. . Just wish he wouldn't use Ollie's success as an excuse to bag the player we did select.

Including most here ... Poll - Wines or Toumpas Toumpas was rated no.2 for most of the 2012 season and was always tipped to go in the top 5 ... Wines, on the other hand was tipped to not get picked up in the top 5. And guess what? That's what happened. It's akin to passing on Petracca and picking someone else outside of the top 5 "popular" picks. By the way, Robbie Gray went at pick 55 in the 2006 draft ... who do we blame there and where do we start?

No

Uber Alex Georgiou ‏@UberAGeorgiou 11m Roosy said every player was on the trade table so I asked him what I was worth. His answer was: "Who the hell r u & get out of my office!"

Good thread P-man. A cross section of Dland [censored] have posted and basically made no sense. Good stuff!

Was forced into being a bomber as a kid. Then I saw The Ox at the G and I walked out a demon. Thanks Ox. I Think.

Picket Fence said ... But the "go home" factor was your only knock on him ... you fail to mention any other factors. And again, it's too late now to add anything extra. So ... if Jimmy doesn't go home, can we assume that you're happy with the decision to draft him?

Watching the game I was thrilled for him in what was a great performance. Loved watching a tough, young player tear it ip in a final.Each to their own.

Unethical? like the use of performance enhancing drugs... or when your day comes to answer the show cause notices going straight to court to get off on a technicality... or re-hiring the senior coach who oversaw the whole situation and has not shown a sign of remorse... should I keep going?

Gee Brendan...didnt you plss off for buckets of money and shiny things. Ffs..what a hypocritical dlckhead.

i love the article in the Herald Sun where Goddard is stating its unethical for other clubs to go after contracted essendon players. What universe do these people live in where everything they do including going after mitch clarke and feeding their own players unknown substances is ethical but others talking to their player is not.

If anything he gives us a better option than our other list cloggers, and he comes to the club fresh and ready to learn under Paul Roos without any 'taint' from the past. If the price is right then I'm all for it.

equalisation is only for the rich

We fukked up And we move on. Bloody id1ots - recruitment

The Nureyev blind turn against the Bulldogs is probably my favourite all-time footy moment. If you watch the replay, you can hear the crowd gasp in collective awe. One small correction though: the handpass to Lovett in the square was against the Dogs, not the Blues

Yeah, but does he have a sleeve tattoo..?

A lot of revisionism going on. I seem to remember that most experts rated Toumpas over Wines. A lot got it wrong.

Obviously the crocodile would come off 2nd best...

Speed is an over rated concept. Players who are quick in the mind and are footballers rather than athletes are those who are most important in finals. Mitchell,Hodge,Lewis,Kennedy,Bartel,Selwood are all vital to their sides come finals and none possess blistering pace but they all possess football smarts and an ability to read the play. We have to few of these footballers and would prefer someone who makes good decisions backed up with equally good disposal. One of the main reasons we are terrible is that we make poor decisions under pressure and we struggle to hold the ball because we can't consistently hit a target. If Brayshaw can assist in addressing this he will be great and will make us better.

It's been reported that we're back in the black despite a horror season with very few profitable home fixtures apart from the QB Blockbuster. I was once told that football clubs can play around with their figures but I accept what PJ says and am calling it a minor miracle. Imagine what we could do if we strung together a few wins early next season and suddenly became a finals contender? Melbourne CEO Peter Jackson declares the Demons made a profit in 2014 despite just four wins

I also think Ken Hinkley and the fitness guy at Port have to take credit. They have created something special at that club. Who knows if he would have been the same player with us.

Pick 2 for Tyson was a steal on its own. The upgrade put us in position to grab one of four very highly touted midfielders, Freeman, Sheed, Aish and Salem. The spare pick exchange at the end also turned 72 into 54, which got us Viv Michie from Fremantle. It was a no brainer and a huge win.

Yeah, but does he bother to tell us about all the predictions that he gets wrong? We all make the big calls and we all get some things right and we all get some things wrong. Anyone who thinks they never get anything wrong with these big calls is having a lend. The great part about these forums is there is nowhere to hide when someone gets it horribly wrong ... some of the older threads are hilarious. The search function reveals all

FFS Chook don't you remember 1998 the old system killed us then. We belted the eventual Premiers by over 80points

Oh yeah, awesome support to be whinging about how great Wines is and how we blew it big time. What a tremendous show of faith. And what if we did blow it? Tell me exactly what is constructive about bringing it up again, and again, and again. It's verging on trolling now. And it's the same girls' blouses that are doing it.

So I was sitting in the old Gardiner Stand at Visy Park watching the TAC Cup Preliminary Final with Melon22 and over to our right was the GWS entourage including SOS and a really fat bloke who I'm led to believe is getting paid $120k pa for sitting around watching kids playing footy. (apologies for the grainy picture but my Iphone camera isn't up to standard ASIO issue)

Truly astonishing. To produce this sort of result given the woeful nature of our on-field performances is the football equivalent of defying gravity. The calm, measured approach of PJ is wonderfully refreshing. How reassuring it is for our club to not be leaking like a sieve - congratulations to PJ, Roos and the coaching/administrative staff. Fingers crossed for a productive Trade Period.

It was reported on SEN that Melbourne had made Dangerfield a "Godfather" offer: Pick 2 and two players. Adelaide knocked it back, which self-evidently means the offer cannot be termed "Godfather" since it was an offer that Adelaide COULD refuse.

Brad Crouch is already a very very good player. Would walk in and be right behind Nathan Jones as our best midfielder. He is so damaging with his pace and goal kicking. I'd give up pick 3 for him and another late pick.

Can't see the upside in this bloke. Could unbalance the team.

It's funny (I guess), I was a big fan of Geelong over previous years but I was massively over them this year. The ducking [censored] me, the fans shite me, the 186 points shite me, the boutique ground where clubs have no seating [censored] me, but above all the greatest snore fest in the history of footy, Tom Harley, [censored] me.