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Our supporters are our biggest issue?! Wow.

Here we go again. Yeah, we are weak because we are not as feral as Tiger or Blues supporters? Dees supporters are pretty bloody strong in my opinion. Weak isn't a word I would use to describe the resilient people that still support this team.

I have never applauded an opposition goal. Who are these F$&@wits??

I wonder how many people actually know how many priority picks Melbourne has received since 2007. I reckon the footy world thinks we have have 4+ the fact is we have had 2, one end of first round and one before first round. Through the Hawthorn rebuild they got 3 before round 1 picks from 2001-2005, Carlton got 4 before first round picks between 2003-2007. Most clubs have been able over a 4 year period point it in the right direction, we are now entering into 5 years since our last Priority pick, 8 years of bad football and our 3rd season in a row with less than 4.5 wins. Thats 5 years of the 8 we have won less that 4.5 games, with one year, 2007 we won 5. Carlton was suspended from the draft for Cheating the salary cap and still got Priority picks.

I know it is pointless to look back at the past and this has probably been done to death already but as a supporter overseas when I talk to someone about AFL and the team I follow (maybe I should lie) I am often asked why my team is so rubbish. The quick answer I give is that we haven't drafted the right players in recent years. As I currently have some time on my hands I have had a look into this in more detail and it is shocking reading. As obvious as it is, clearly the biggest reason the club is where it is now is our drafting, in particular our inability to get value from our top 20 draft pics. I know that development of players is also an issue (who knows how much) but very few players that we have selected in the top 20 have gone on to forge successful careers at other clubs once we parted ways with them so I'd suggest they were not up to it in the first place. I think you can trace the issues as far back as 2001/2002, if you look at the players to come out of these drafts a number are club captains/legends of the game. We have no leadership from this era other than what we have brought in from outside the club. I know that if we made better selections in the earlier years then we would not have finished so low on the ladder and got the early draft picks in subsequent years but ignoring this for the sake of the exercise our records for picks 1 to 20 is horrific and makes for some terrible reading: I have excluded 2012/2013 as they are too soon to call definitively. And I also snuck in pick 21 from 2007 (near enough) 2001 - FAIL....Could be a 200 plus game leader of the club in the final year or two of career Pick 9: Luke Molan – Zero Games Pick 17: Traded to Geelong along with Pick 41 for Clint Bizzell (Geelong Selected James Kelly with 17) Notable players available at these selections who are still playing: Nick Dal Santo #13, James Kelly #17, Steve Johnson #24, Sam Mitchell #36, Leigh Montagna #37, Dane Swan #58, Brian Lake #71, Andrew Carazzo #5 Rookie Draft (RD), Matthew Boyd #23 (RD), Aaron Sandilands #33 (RD) 2002 – FAIL.....Again could be a 200 plus game leader at club in the final year or two of career Pick 14: Daniel Bell – 66 Games Pick 15: Nicholas Smith – 4 Games Notable players available at these selections who are still playing: Will Minson #20, Tom Lonergan #23, Daniel Merrett #30, Kade Simpson #45, Ryan Crowley #55, Nick Malceski #64, Brad Sewell #7 (RD), Michael Firrito #10 (RD) 2003 – FAIL.....OK this was a rubbish draft to have a priority selection but with two picks in the top 5 should have at least one very solid player out of this draft still on our list and a leader at the club Pick 3: Colin Sylvia – 157 Games Pick 5: Brock McLean – 94 Games Notable players available at these selections who are still playing: Beau Waters #11, Brent Stanton #13, Troy Chaplin #15, David Mundy #19, Jed Adcock #33, Daniel Jackson #53, Sam Fisher #55, Michael Rischitelli #61, Michael Johnson #8 Pre-Season Draft (PSD) 2004 - LOW PASS.....Both have played 100 games for the club and Dunn has been one of our better players this year, neither though have been consistent performers over their career Pick 13: Matthew Bate – 102 Games Pick 15: Lynden Dunn – 138 Games Notable players available at these selections who are still playing: Angus Monfries #14, Nathan Van Berlo #24, Matt Rosa #29, Mark Lecras #37, Ivan Maric #40, Eddie Betts #3 (PSD), Dale Morris #19 (RD) 2005 – WIN.........Finally a winner, can’t fault Nathan Jones at Pick 12 Pick 12: Nathan Jones - 178 Games 2006 – WIN.....Probably have to say this is a win too, although I am in the camp hoping Frawley is not at the club next year and we can use the compensation to good effect Pick 12: James Frawley Notable players available at this selection: Jack Riewoldt #13, Mitchell Brown #16, Eric MacKenzie #29, Kurt Tippett #32, Todd Goldstein #37, Robbie Gray #55, Justin Westhoff #71, Sam Jacobs #1 (RD), 2007 – FAIL.......Grimes gets a pass although as a footballer he has his limitations, the other two are clear busts, especially Morton considering the quality of players available at pick 4 Pick 4: Cale Morton - 73 Games Pick 14: Jack Grimes – 86 Games Pick 21: Addam Maric – 21 Games Notable players available at this selection: David Myers #6, Lachlan Henderson #8, Ben McEvoy #9, Patrick Dangerfield #10, Cyril Rioli #12, Brad Ebert #13, Harry Taylor #17, Alex Rance #18, Callan Ward #19, Scott Selwood #22, Scott Thompson (NM) #37, Chris Mayne #40, Jack Steven #42, Cale Hooker #54, Nathan Grima #14 (RD), Brodie Martin #52 (RD), Shane Mumford #57 (RD) 2008 – HUGE FAIL.....Very doubtful any of these 3 will be at the club next year. From these picks we should have at least 2 near 100 game players to build a side around. The list of available players at these picks makes for hard reading. Pick 1: Jack Watts – 94 Games Pick 17: Sam Blease – 33 Games Pick 19: James Strauss – 24 Games Notable players available at these selections: Nick Naitanui #2, Stephen Hill #3, Hamish Hartlett #4, Michael Hurley #5, Chris Yarran #6, Daniel Rich #7, Jack Ziebell #9, Phil Davis #10, Steele Sidebottom #11, Luke Shuey #18, Hayden Ballantyne #21, Jackson Trengove #22, David Zaharakis #23, Jack Redden #25, Dayne Beams #29, Daniel Hannebery #30, Liam Shiels #34, Stephen Motlop #39, Rory Sloane #44, Tom Rockliff #5 (PSD), Luke Breust #47 (RD) 2009 – HUGE FAIL......Another terrible effort, ultimately Tom $cully pissing off could do us a favour in the long run with Hogan now on the list but we have had no use of that pick for the last 2 years now and will have to wait another year or two of development. Trengrove is a solid but limited footballer and Gysberts who was a surprise selection amounted to nothing at the club or at North Melbourne Pick 1: Tom Scully – 31 Games Pick 2: Jack Trengrove – 81 Games Pick 11: Jordan Gysberts – 19 Games Notable players available at these selections: Dustin Martin #3, Ben Cunnington #5, Daniel Talia #13, Lewis Jetta #14, Nat Fyfe #20, Ryan Bastinac #21, Jake Carlisle #24, Mitch Duncan #28, Jack Gunston #29, Sam Reid #38, Allen Christensen #40, 2010 – FAIL.....Cook was another surprise selection and didn't play a single game nor was he picked up by another club subsequently. You have to go very deep in this draft to find another player that did not play a single game Pick 12: Lucas Cook – Zero Games Notable players available at these selections: Brodie Smith #14, Shaun Atley #17, Issac Smith #19, Cameron Guthrie #23, Jack Darling #26, Scott Lycett #29, Josh Green #32, Luke Parker #40, Paul Puopolo #66, Josh Jenkins #12 (RD), Luke Dahllhaus #22 (RD) 2011 – FAIL.......Can’t blame the club for this one but at the end of the day it is another one that has not gone our way and cost us a useful player that we could have drafted if we used the pick (although with our strike rate, probably not) Pick 12: Traded to Brisbane for Mitch Clark – 15 Games Notable players available at these selections: Taylor Adams #13, Devon Smith #14, Brandon Ellis #15, Jackson Merrett #31, Bradley Hill #33, Sam Rowe #44, Jordon Murdoch #48, This is a terrible record. Ten years of bad drafting which makes we wonder, is there a way back? how many years will it take to rebuild this list that has a very limited core group of players to build around?

I'm actually not sure what sort of response you want here. You're asking a bunch of freaks who are still here after 8 of the most insipid years in the history of organised team sport if we are weak. Do what a good brother should do and give him a fierce dead leg while singing It's a Grand Old Flag.

Chokes brother

And to think rfpc that we criticise our own players for not taking the first, clear correct option.

Choke, your brother was just being a snide little turd. There's something wrong with anyone who can doubt the commitment and passion of Melbourne supporters who turned up to a game, late into yet another miserable season, the 8th in a row. For what it's worth, your brother is a North supporter. 27 finals played and 2 premierships in the last 20 years. They've dropped below 10 wins just 3 times in those 20 years, and not once in the last five seasons. The least time they had 6 or less wins in a season was the early 1970s. Their recent teams have included some of the all-time greats of the game, and some of the most charismatic and high-profile individuals. And their membership and attendances barely scrape ahead of ours, despite comparable base numbers of supporters. In fact, for all the quirks of the fixture, it is fun to notice that Melbourne's match attendances this year have been higher than North's, whether counted as overall or as home games only.

Before getting stuck into our supporters, isn't the most obvious interpretation that it was ironic clapping from some disgruntled supporters.

The supporters are the only thing right about this club. Have the best fan to member ratio in the AFL, and have been loyal to a fault for many years when the club has been god awful. Sharing this misery with the great demons fans is what keeps me going.

They are going to look at game we could have won? Sounds like they are making an out already since we were close in a number of games. I hope by the same token they also look at our wins that we could have lost.

Again, it amounts to the same thing old dee. Tanking is tanking whether a club picks good players or not (on the back of tanking "successfully") I'm not being dismissive at all, Colin. I'll explain my stance further ... Tanking has been going on since the 90's and (partly) as a result of all that tanking, no fewer than 9 priority picks were handed out in 2003, 2004 & 2005. Then the AFL changed the rules - funny about that. Just on that "infamous" round 18 clash of 2009 ... the Tigers were also tanking that day. There was only one set of supporters who were generally unhappy that day - Richmond fans. They'd missed out themselves and we'd become the "possible" recipients. Tiger fans in particular have pointed the finger at us ever since. Like us, they wanted Scully. The whole spectre of tanking mysteriously disappears if teams prosper from tanking (i.e pick good players with the picks "generated") However, tanking can always lurk beneath the surface if a team doesn't prosper from tanking - we found that out the hard way. If we'd picked say, Sidebottom, Fyfe and Martin instead of Watts, Scully and Trengove then I'm tipping that the whole sequence of events surrounding our club would have been completely different. The investigation might not have happened because we could have prospered from tanking. I've had open dialogue with friends and acquaintances about tanking for more than 10 years. Maybe 15 years. Most, if not all, have admitted that their teams have tanked on various occasions. It's happened about 30 times since the mid to late '90's in my opinion. Of course, I can't prove that but it's hard to disprove also. Carlton tanked to get Murphy, Walker, Kennedy, Gibbs, Judd & Kreuzer. Ask any Blues fan who wants to be truthful - for verification. We shouldn't beat ourselves up over tanking. It was a widespread practice carried out by about a dozen teams on numerous occasions. We didn't prosper from tanking and then ... the perfect storm started brewing.

time for an uppercut choke. he's your brother hence your responsibility

Perhaps what it shows is the attempt to equalize the competition is more difficult than it appears. There is no doubt our underfunded football department over the last decade has been one of the major factors in our failure. Recruiting is a rare skill, few can do it. Until we get someone that can we will struggle. Lets hope Jason Taylor and Todd Viney have the smarts.

Hypothetical scenario: A man falls off a cliff, but manages to grab on to a branch on the way down. Now he can't get up, no matter how hard or long he struggles; so he calls out to his 17 mates high-fiving each other at the top. "Help me," he says. "I can't get up by myself." "No," they respond. "You don't deserve it." Man plummets to his death.

Nah lets give him another 5ys like Sylvia before we realise we are pushing the c rapola up a big hill

This is where the view of many , to me , falls down. Hes not the best. He WAS a #1 draft pick but thats only a number and a supposition based upon obviously dubious criteria. He is a skilled but very average footballer. No where near the best The thing is I think we ARE maximising him and thats the problem. No one wants anyone to take ANY responsibility for failure. Well when you cross that white line its all down to you ( the player). No one else is playing Jack Watts but Jack Watts.

He plays every single week. He has been playing AFL for 6 seasons. There are plenty of recruits and players that have come to poor teams and played well. He is a downhill skier and is simply taking up space in a team that doesn't have the right cattle. It's time to move on and trade him while he has (minimal) value.

Just punch the F$%ken suitcase out of the big blouse until he gets some c#nt in him. Guys in a circle, one ball, two men in , no rules. There are other drills for [censored] as well. I could sort out that kid. Send him to the Gat for some survivor training. The AFl is a yuppie hand bag fest of overpaid bogans anyway. I'm about over the lot of it.

This^^^^^^^^ Plenty of clubs have realised the first rounders just aren't up to it and cut their losses, the Hawks also drafted Beau Muston, Meth Coast Sampi, Pies - Egan, Cats - Tenace, Tigers -Tambling/Oakley-Nicholls you just have to make the hard decision

[censored] yeah! I only mentioned it and the "lads" started honking and kicking their stalls. Anyway the neighbour is out so I'm going over to make sure everything is ok with his missus (and his wine).

When I was reading the "draft picks 1-20" thread it said Daniel Merrett was taken by Brisbane at pick 30 in 2002 - I thought "surely not" I had no recollection of Merrett playing that early - I actually thought it must have been a different Daniel Merrett - yet sure enopugh that's when he was drafted and he didn't debut until 2005! That is what we lack, that is our poor development in a nutshell - we draft kids and lump 50 years of expectation on them from day dot and if they don't dominate by their 5th game we're ready to turn on them. Talk about Tigers eating their own have a look at us! These kids shouldn't even really be playing seniors but due to our [censored] poor list they are forced into the side to install a little bit of class instead of putting out a team of Nicho's, Bail's, Terlich's and Matty Joneses. Salem has been fine and has shown a bit of class in at least 3 games off the top of my head and desire for the contest and willing to back it up with multiple efforts in at least 2 or 3 others. That's all he needs to show at this stage. Next year he should have a similar to this allowing him to develop in the VFL for half the year and playing seniors the other half with half of those games as sub. Then in year 3 )at the ripe old age of 20-21) hopefully he can come in and contribute and become a consistent best 22 player.

I can say with absolute certainty that this is not the problem with the club. In fact, if only it was.

I don't really get what the big deal is about "tanking" it happens in the NBA and NFL and their media don't seem to give a stuff - or do they just sweep it under the carpet? I don't know I haven't followed those sports for long enough but a couple of years back in the NFL they had the "Suck for Luck" (no. 1 pick quarterback Andrew Luck) which the Colts "won" after Peyton Manning went down with season ending neck surgery. Sure they would have sucked anyway but the point is it's generally accepted over there that teams will "list-manage" for the future if they're out of contention. Of course it has more of an effect in the NBA or NFL where 1 player can make a huge difference especially if its a QB, you probably don't see that as much here where 1 player probably won't make a difference, especially in his first year.

It is actually sickening when you see it there in front of you. Our drafting was not bad, it was absolutely pathetic. We don't have one champion on the list and only a couple of very good players. The rest battlers at best or below AFL standard. Terrible.

OrTry Regaining A Decent Engine

Why don't you send that to the papers, especially Barrett.

and I can't believe that after what every knowledgeable expert ( and some dimwits) and coaches write about 18 /19 year olds - don't judge them until they get 30-40 games under their belts you would post this. Sink the boots into Watts/Frawley/Dawes all you like - this kid has played 12 games.

Lucas Cook worst pick ever, such a dud.

Had a Hawks supporter mate tell me we don't deserve one. I restrained the initial desire to hook his nuts up to electrodes and talk to him about 2004 and 2005 but I said it isn't about us deserving anything. They seemingly cannot get over the 'deserve' stuff. And then he said "but you have had plenty of picks. You have youngsters coming through." Maybe these idiots just don't know the scope of the failures. They certainly don't know our list. I do find it enormously hilarious when they say before the season starts - "you blokes are hopeless, you ever thought about switching teams?" and then when PP Season comes around we "don't need another leg up. Plenty of kids coming through." Just so...hilarious...

Some of the players don't seem to care by the way they play so why the hell should I?? Yet another season I am looking forward to seeing the end of. That's 8 years in a row. Yet again the off season will be more exciting than the season itself.

yes, and this is the main reason so many apologists just can't let go

is your bro dr who?

Have done a similar depressing thread before about this. Probably a couple of times... I go back a couple of years earlier as we also surrendered Pick 5 in 1999 after the Jeff White poaching stuff... It really is the fundamental reason why we are in the wilderness and while I hope we get a PP as it helps us get back to civilisation - we can do it. But it will take so very special drafting and a success rate of top 30 picks close to 100%. The last couple of years have looked promising, but it is too early to tell. We simply can't take a wrong turn in the next few Octobers and Novembers.

Fair point. I haven't done the analysis but I suspect most clubs have players drafted late. We get ok players late but nobody "special"! Bloody frustrating.

I think one of the biggest problems with Melbourne supporters are that we're very punch drunk. We've had it so bad for so long we now see negatives in everything when we continue to lose games. I've stopped making judgments on our players because everytime I watch a game now I just get angry at everything and everyone at the club. PJ was right, the only thing we have is hope, so for Salem I choose to hope that he will end up a very good player.

You suggest we knock. Most of us are simply exasperated and fed up with this lads inability to deliver on his spasmodic indulgences. Maybe it is knocking. Explain why he should be exempt from it though. What gives ? He has some inexhaustible supply of get out of jail free' cards or something ? This guy plays footy like a wet sock half the time and that's simply not good enough for this level nor is it good enough for this club. He earns a considerable dollar .He can bloody well earn it for mine. Theres this silly notion amongst a fair few supporters that this thing footy is some kind of 'goodfellas' club. Its all buddy buddy schmoozy . Its a crock. This is AFL footy. Its actually a business not a social venue. We're crapp at this business. And we are because some players play like crapp. Currently less some and more like most. But lets not hold players accountable....the poor darlings. Jack is far from alone but this thread is about Jack. There are other threads about other players. I suppose one of the things that gets up my craw is the temerity of players to get all high minded and want to know "what the club is doing" and whether their future is here or there and at the same moment deliver [censored] for dinner. They , like many supporters it would seem have priorities arse about. There are players at the club Watts could take a few good tips from in terms of how to conduct oneself on the playing field and if I thought they might have some rub off Id probably , like some , be inclined to persevere yet again , in the hope of him delivering . But despite these role models, despite some very good coaches, despite external mentoring he just comes at the game like a wet lettuce to a salad. enough is enough and I think in the interests of all parties that Jack finds a new home, a fresh start and maybe a club where he can punce around and that's sufficient. I would put it to all the apologists who decry us for knocking Jack that maybe the problem isnt that we knock, but that he continually serves up rubbish that is KNOCKABLE. If there's nothing to complain about , complaints stop. Funny that!!

I have no doubt he's a great bloke unfortunately he's just not very good at football.

I don't think hiring Misson was an experiment.

Just got back from the game, wow that was quite something to behold. I don't even know where to begin really. I'll just list some things otherwise it will be a rant and a half: 1) Watts is just a joke and the sooner he is off the list the better, was toweled up by Jamie Bennell to half time. Looked like he was wearing ice skates. 2) Melbourne players are the worst tackling side in the comp bar none 3) They are also the least skilled and composed side (but we knew that already) 4) They are also the laziest side in the comp. I lost count of the number of times our guys just let their opponent have 5 m and with their skills we were never in the race, even if they didn't hit a target,they usually had enough space to still win the ball. 5) Eagles worked 3 x harder than our guys even when they had a 10 goal lead, Lecras was running from one end of the ground to the other just making our guys look like Saturday amateurs (no offence amateurs) 6) Kent has a long, long, long way to go,and I'm starting to really have my doubts about his ability. The amount of times he just stood next to his opponent in the forward line and offered no leads nothing was just criminal 7) Our stoppage work could be so much better, we won our fair share of clearances but it was never a clean win, always a rush or a slow chain of backwards handballs to a guy under enormous pressure before a scrappy up and under out to the boundary line, Eagles clearances on the other hand always players shrugging off our tackles and hitting blokes running past at pace then delivering lace out inside 50. it was chalk vs cheese really. And the way we give blokes a metre or two at centre bounces is just so unaccountable (I'm talking about Nate Jones, Bernie Vince, Tyson, the lot of them were really loose) 8) Frawley was again just going through the motions, nothing new there 9) I hate to bring this up as it seems like such a poor excuse ....but we were absolutely crucified by the umpires, maybe it seemed worse than it was because I was surrounded by other frustrated Dees fans but it seemed ridiculously one sided for the first 3 quarters and West Coast must have had at least 5 or 6 goals that came directly from free kicks (mostly coming in the opening minutes of quarters too) 10) The number of times we handball to someones feet or god forbid actually into someones hands and then they fumble it is almost unbelievable for an AFL side just laughable 11) I saw very little to commend at all in that game, I thought Rohan Bail played ok besides that shocking crossfield pass to a 2 on 1 with Neville Jetta that resulted in a goal to the eagles but besides that he played decent. The only others that were not awful were N. Jones, Vince, Cross and maybe Tyson (I'll have to watch the game again). Fitzpatrick looked pretty rusty, although the goals were welcome, but besides those goals, he really was slow and not very clean with his hands. 12) I think it's safe to say the Jeremy Howe backline experiment is a complete failure 13) The players did something very strange at the end of the game, they wandered slowly towards the side of the ground where the Melbourne away fans were (I was assuming they were coming to give us fans a thankyou for the support) but then as they neared the 50 m line closest to where we were, they stopped seemed to talk amongst themselves and then without even clapping the fans or waving to us walked back the other way, just as aimlessly as they had in our direction initially and slowly made their way back to the race) I thought this was highly insulting to us fans that had sat through one of the worst displays of football imaginable. I'm not sure what story was with this but it seemed like Dawes was the one that instigated the "turn-around" move that shunned us fans. quite bizarre really. 14) Russell Robertson and the Wiz were sitting amongst us fans, the Wiz had a very young baby (couldn't tell if it was a boy or girl), Wiz left at half time, Robbo stuck it out to the end. At one point I turned to Robbo and said: "can you please teach them how to take a mark!" this was after Gawn had failed to outmark Shannon Hurn for the umpteenth time. 15) The lack of organisation in the backline every time there was a centre bounce was quite diabolical. Players hurridely swapping men, blokes sprinting up to the wing to man up loose Eagles, I'm not talking once or twice this happened either, it was every single bloody time the ball went into the middle for a restart, I just couldn't believe it really. Is this normal? 16) This isn't the first time I've written these words, we still try and gang tackle players or have 2 or sometimes 3 guys get sucked into the ball carrier only to leave a couple of free players for the easy one over the top. It happened repeatedly, and the Eagles torched us for it many times. We also never do the 1% type things well like the shepherds and the blocks, we telegraph all of our passes either by hand or foot and the Eagles were always right on the hammer of the receiver putting extreme pressure on. The simple things like a big tall taking a mark at half forward and then giving off to a runner going past behind him with someone hot on his hammer but not providing the block to give him a metre or two of room, that was the norm for us. 17) Pretty critical here I know, but the warm up drills are real junior footy type stuff. PIcking up and handballing to a guy standing still rolling balls at them, no wonder they always handball to stationary targets, that's how they warm up!! 18) And lastly, had one of the saddest walks back to the car at the end of the game as my little 6 year old son (who'd attended his first game) had started crying in the 3rd quarter telling me in a broken voice "Why did the umpire give the Eagle the free kick". We made it through to the end without any further tears, but then on the walk back to the car poor little bloke balled his eyes out for a solid 20 minutes as we walked amongst a bunch of happy Eagles fans (to their credit nobody said anything to push it in our face, that's what Dockers fans do, and we even had a couple of old ladies offering a sympathetic remark, such is the feeling of pity that other supporters now have for us Melbourne fans, pretty bloody ordinary finish to the night. I didn't really know what to tell him, just the usual stuff "it's only a game" "we'll be better next year" "the players aren't trying, but next year most of them won't be there" (how I hope this is true). To be honest, I have very little belief that they will actually get better but I had to tell the poor kid something. When I dropped a philosophical concept on him I knew I was really starting to scrape the barrel, told him "listen, just remember how bad this night feels because it'll make it all the more satisfying when we actually start winning again" 19) After all of that, he said " Dad, I still don't feel any better, can you tell me a story to cheer me up on the drive home". Ended up having to make up a story where he gets drafted at pick 5 by the Dees (coached by Nathan Jones) 10 years from now and kicks a winning goal after the final siren in his debut game. He drifted off to sleep after that. What a shocking night. Nice to get some things off my chest.

You forgot Mr Ceramic Tapscott.

Not the first time it's happened at Subi and it will continue. Not the reason we lost but 3 frees we should have had for trips, a tackle Josh Hill laid inside 50 dropped down to Jones legs and he ended up being tripped, they scored a goal directly from it, Mckenzie manhandled Dawes in the forward pocket about 12 meters from goal no free paid and they rebounded straight up the other end in what was a 12 point turn around. Wouldn't have changed the result but it certainly needs to be looked at

We had significantly more possessions than WCE on Saturday but half as many frees.So it has nothing to do with getting the ball first. The umpires are pressured by the crowd.

Read the thread ya plum.

It is just amazing how it is impossible to have a logical discussion on this issue. The Saints coach said oh how could the Dees get one while we are one below them. The other teams above us are reduced to talks about do we deserve it, its our fault we are shyte etc. The PP rule talks about poor performance over an extended period but let's not get to hung up on the wording or intent of the rule. It is really about whatever the top 10 or so AFL club presidents think is fir for them.

We have no issue running out games. We have issues kicking, handballing and spreading. How is that the fault of the fitness coach? We've had pretty good injury runs the last 2 years. You always get the freak injuries like Trengove's foot or Hogan's back, but Grimes is our only soft tissue injury of the year from the senior side and he has a history of them.

Are you saying that the house is in very real danger of coming down?

Mdemonski - didn't even watch

this is what's really hard ta the moment. My 8 year old daughter is struggling to stay interested in the footy while the demons are so bad, that's ok, I'm a bit the same, but the one thing she loves is Jack Watts', if he went, I think she would lose all interest in footy. Its not a reason to keep him, but it does hit home that Footy can still be emotional, and personal. I Love Jack, i know he is great around the club. I loved that he signed on when he had every right to leave after his treatment. I'm really passionate about this, i want Jack to stay and i want him to contribute to our rise. I know most fans are fed up with him and his non competitiveness. I love when he has the ball in his hands, more than not he sets us up, does not waste it. Needs to be stronger, needs to be more urgent. Im in the minority i know. But im loyal, i love him, he is a great bloke and i want him to be a demon for life and a good one at that.