T Mac extended out his contract to help the club re-sign other players. It's unethical for the club to push him into retirement if he wants to continue playing.

If T Mac and BBB spend all year injured or at Casey, that's on the club's list management, not the players.

21 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I love how we want Petty to stay while he’s contracted but we are happy to throw Ben Brown and Tom McDonald away. 
You have to honor contracts, what sort of club would we be if we pushed guys into retirement while contracted? You just don’t do that. Poor optics all around. 

These two are not stopping us in any way from doing what we want with our list. 

If a player knows his body isn’t up to playing AFL footy he should retire and the club would compensate him. If Brown really thinks he can jump and compete next year then ok but the fact he couldnt get right for a final suggests he’s done. 

And we’ve looked after T Mac for 12 years through his wild inconsistency and injuries. He should have honest chats with the doctors and look himself in the mirror. 

They are both premiership players but footy is a brutal game. 

If we had their salaries off our books we could make a big play in the trade period potentially

As it turns out BB and TMac are the least of our worries they can be utilised to upskill our young brigade. The Club has encouraged others to make way for our next draftee’s and this may harm us more in the short term.

Edited October 12, 20231 yr by DeeZone
Removed negativity

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

But his knee isn't fine 'red'. Since 2019 Brown hasn't been able to complete a full season due to knee issues. That's damming in itself. 

His body is completely unreliable and when our forward line was at our most vulnerable during the finals he wasn't available because he'd just come out of rehab from his knee issues. That's the time we needed a fully fit Ben Brown.

I like the guy, but right now, I'd much rather a fit mature age key forward on our list then Brown/McDonald. 

Agree, but I did say "IF" he believes it is fine. I don't know if his knee is fine.

Surely our Doctors/Physios can assess his knee and recommend what is to happen, play on or retire.

I wouldn't imagine it is his decision solely.

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Agree, but I did say "IF" he believes it is fine. I don't know if his knee is fine.

Surely our Doctors/Physios can assess his knee and recommend what is to happen, play on or retire.

I wouldn't imagine it is his decision solely.

My friend is on a fitness kick at the moment and he's sent me a few messages saying "Ben Brown is in the gym again".

Can't comment on the extent of his exercises but BBB seemingly doing the work and will be up and about in 2023.

Even if we get ~15 games out of him next year that is a win compared to the 2023 season

35 minutes ago, DubDee said:

...

If we had their salaries off our books we could make a big play in the trade period potentially

I'm happy to be corrected but if either one or both retired I do not think their salaries are off our books.
I believe either their full salaries or their payout figure (if different) is still part of our TPP next year.

If we are stuck with both these guys for next year, so be it.  I can't see TMac getting right but you'd hope he'd be a good influence at Casey with the younger players.  He may even teach Schache to compete. 

BBB is an interesting one.  I can't see the selectors picking him unless he is 100%, and why would they with Petty and JVR in front of him? If he is absolutely firing, I can see Petty going into the backline again, but wouldn't bet the house on it.

Worst case, we have ~$1.5m invested in two talls that may be fit enough to play for Casey.

Best case, we have depth when injuries happen. Not everyone has a Coleman winner in the twos.

2 minutes ago, M_9 said:

I'm happy to be corrected but if either one or both retired I do not think their salaries are off our books.
I believe either their full salaries or their payout figure (if different) is still part of our TPP next year.

yeah that would be my understanding too. maybe a 50% contract payout for next year? not sure how it works. they’d be on decent coin but

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

If a player knows his body isn’t up to playing AFL footy he should retire and the club would compensate him. If Brown really thinks he can jump and compete next year then ok but the fact he couldnt get right for a final suggests he’s done. 

And we’ve looked after T Mac for 12 years through his wild inconsistency and injuries. He should have honest chats with the doctors and look himself in the mirror. 

They are both premiership players but footy is a brutal game. 

If we had their salaries off our books we could make a big play in the trade period potentially

Others have covered my reply - early retirement doesn’t clear their salaries from our cap.   

Quality human being is our Benny and I'd love to see him have an injury free run in the final year of his contract. 

We have to be consistent.  If we expect Petty to honour his contract then we have to let Tmac and Brown see out theirs.

That doesnt mean we cant come to a mutually agreed exit. It does appear both are done. Maybe a payout for 24 and  obviously they wont have to do a gruelling pre season.

I think at least one of the two should retire from the game. One looked completely out of his depth in the finals and the other's been nursed for much of his tenure at the MFC.

However, they are both contracted and are legally/financially obliged to play on next year so we can't hold it against them for continuing.

It's a long 24 round season, Petty can't be relied upon to play a full season, JVR is still young and Melksham won't be available until August. T Mac and BBB will be called upon at different stages of the season and will be useful depth provided they can spend the majority of the year outside of the casualty ward.

 

You have to look at this from a holistic perspective.

1. We need to treat our veterans right. This means honoring contracts and keeping a strong culture with our leaders.

2. Do we have enough spots on the list, and enough cap space to operate as we need to? We have several retirements and trades. It certainly looks like we have heaps of cap space and list spots to operate as we need to.

3. Do we have enough positional coverage in each position? Debatable, but having a spare forward will be useful for us. Midfield is looking a bit thin though. 

Not every player on our list will need to play in the 22. With rookie picks included we have the flexibility to retain our older players and have young players like Verall while having strong depth. 

1 hour ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I think at least one of the two should retire from the game. One looked completely out of his depth in the finals and the other's been nursed for much of his tenure at the MFC.

However, they are both contracted and are legally/financially obliged to play on next year so we can't hold it against them for continuing.

It's a long 24 round season, Petty can't be relied upon to play a full season, JVR is still young and Melksham won't be available until August. T Mac and BBB will be called upon at different stages of the season and will be useful depth provided they can spend the majority of the year outside of the casualty ward.

 

We won't know that untill after we see them perform at senior level BBP.

On 22/09/2023 at 11:29, BaliDemon said:

Why would anyone offer an opinion disbelieving it to be the correct one? 

Lawyers: every day. That's the job.

A fit Ben Brown is still a huge asset.

3 hours ago, Super Sub Schache said:

A fit Ben Brown is still a huge asset.

 

On 13/10/2023 at 08:15, dazzledavey36 said:

But his knee isn't fine 'red'. Since 2019 Brown hasn't been able to complete a full season due to knee issues. That's damming in itself. 

His body is completely unreliable and when our forward line was at our most vulnerable during the finals he wasn't available because he'd just come out of rehab from his knee issues. That's the time we needed a fully fit Ben Brown.

I like the guy, but right now, I'd much rather a fit mature age key forward on our list then Brown/McDonald. 

He wasn't right in last year's finals also when he actually played. Been a great pick up but maybe it's past him now. I do have more hope for him than Tmac though. 

Serious question that I don't have an answer for.   There have been "knee people" advocating / advertising over the years (very expensive) stem cell intraarticular injections to help "restore" knee joints.

Do any of our physios or orthopaedic / sports medicine people here have any personal experience or considered professional thoughts on these treatments.

As I have read it there are a few enthusiasts and many who think it is the work of charlatans.

Just interested.  I would presume were it in the mainstream it would have at least been explored for Ben at some stage.

Edited October 14, 20231 yr by monoccular

Glad BBB goes around 1 last time! I've lost total faith however in T. Mac.

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Glad BBB goes around 1 last time! I've lost total faith however in T. Mac.

They are probably two different situations.

BBB was injured and couldn't play. He is now saying the knee is ok. We will see how he goes in the pre season.

Tom Mac was apparently fit and played in the finals and could not bend down, turn, run, contest or simply have any impact. That suggests he is not improving in any of those areas this year. Again we will see how he goes in the Pre Season. 

I don't think either player would enjoy playing at Casey the whole year, so it is probably in their hands what happens in the last year of their contracts. The club has salary cap room this year, to settle their contracts on a compromised amount, if they retire before the draft and allow us to have another selection.

It won't kill us however, to have them on the list for one more year, but if one retires, we could probably use the spot for one of the later drafts, or to uplift a rookie, or to have for the 24 draft.

If we are forced into playing Tom Mac next year, in the same form he was in at the end of this year, we are in trouble.

Edited October 14, 20231 yr by Redleg

On 14/10/2023 at 08:11, Super Sub Schache said:

A fit Ben Brown is still a huge asset.

Assuming they kick it to him on a lead of course.

More chance of his knee being ok than that on past evidence

We owe them money, not a list spot.

Unless there’s some drastic reason to expect massive health improvements or there’s a special cultural reason to keep meet and 3 veg around we should move on.

Its bordering on elder abuse to put them through preseasons just so they can resume the cycle of injuries, surgeries and Casey games.

6 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

We owe them money, not a list spot.

Unless there’s some drastic reason to expect massive health improvements or there’s a special cultural reason to keep meet and 3 veg around we should move on.

Its bordering on elder abuse to put them through preseasons just so they can resume the cycle of injuries, surgeries and Casey games.

We have in the past paid the odd player out but not for the sort of money that Brown & T-Mac are probably on

But I tend to agree that if a tortuous pre-season hinders rather than helps, it's counter-productive

So do we bite the bullet and payout close enough to $1Million to create 2 spots? 

With the advent of longer contracts right across the board, paying players out at the end might become a normal occurance

One way to alleviate large payouts is to front end contracts.  Another is to transition into assistant coaching but that's tricky as the playing contracts are water-tight without any KPI's attached

The other issue with paying players out is that the money is still included in the salary cap so it's not like cap space is created

Another way to go about it is to set both players for 2-3 games at a time - in rotation (and then rest up and train in simulated form for a return in 2 or 3 weeks time, instead of grinding away at Casey)

29 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

We owe them money, not a list spot.

Unless there’s some drastic reason to expect massive health improvements or there’s a special cultural reason to keep meet and 3 veg around we should move on.

Its bordering on elder abuse to put them through preseasons just so they can resume the cycle of injuries, surgeries and Casey games.

If the club were going to make a decision in paying either one of them they would have made the decision by now especially as we're in the middle of trade period.

I'd much rather have a developing tall, forward or back developing away next then have two really injury prone players who will be lucky to clock up 10 games between them.

Harsh as it sounds but the club is bigger then the individual and I fully respect to both for helping us win a flag, but the reality is they both going into next year a year older and game getting more intense and brutal by the year.

Struggle to see how their bodies help up considering they both haven't played a full season of AFL for a number of years. That's simply not going to change next year.

Edited October 15, 20231 yr by dazzledavey36