On 26/09/2023 at 02:16, loges said:

Well constructed argument however we should note in years gone by players from many positions would win the award and much fewer umpires on the ground 

There isn't an award where the midfielders don't dominate proceedings

Even the coaches very rarely give votes to backmen & forwards.  It's a midfielders medal now as it's hard to standout as a forward and backmen are now part of a zone with flooding a common practice

The only way things will change is if we go back to open forward lines as a staple (and what are the chances of that happening?)

For a long time IMO it has been a centre players award. This year it shows how poor the voting system by the umpires is. The whole thing is devalued. Just a publicity show for the AFL and Media. 

  On 25/09/2023 at 12:28, Ethan Tremblay said:

Bontempelli will win. Who cares though, we all know Daicos really won it. 

You could say the same about Clarrys wrecked season!

  On 25/09/2023 at 12:49, Supreme_Demon said:

Far out! That was frustrating!

Jack Viney 3 votes against Sydney was a mystery.

Angus Brayshaw 3 votes against North Melbourne was also bizarre.

But oh well.

Lachie Neale from the Lions is a well deserved winner.

Pretty confident Christian Petracca will win the Demons' Best & Fairest this year though at least.

Brayshaw got 9 coaches votes against North I’m pretty sure.

  On 25/09/2023 at 20:55, Clintosaurus said:

They can't umpire properly so getting the votes right be impossible.

Nice, realistic connection, there. Is it not time that they became professional and thus, more accountable across the board of their responsibilities? The AFL has deceived us for too long about their respective talents, skills and meritorious service to the game. 

  On 26/09/2023 at 02:16, loges said:

Well constructed argument however we should note in years gone by players from many positions would win the award and much fewer umpires on the ground 

It would be interesting to analyse the positions of medal winners over the decades.

I can only recall two full backs - Fred Goldsmith SM 1955, Verdun Howell StK 1959.

Back pocket Bernie Smith Geel 1951, John James Carl 1961; Brad Hardie Foot 1985

CHB - Brian Gleeson StK 1957, Neil Roberts StK1958, Gordon Collis Carl 1964, Ross Glendinning NM 1983

HBF Gavin Wanganeen Ess 1993

CHF Kelvin Templeton Foot 1980

FF Tony Lockett St K 1987

All the others were rucks, rovers, ruck rovers, centres and on-ballers. Not a single set position player since 1993 and not even a single ruckman since 1992. Maybe it is time to reconsider but there are too many conflicting themes to find the truly best solution.

Modern footy surely rewards those who attend as many contests as possible rather than those who "beat their man" and contribute to a result.

In a way I'm glad tracc didn't win it.

It would have been framed as some sort of consolation. Not by trac or the dees, but by the media. 

To not at last make this years gf is a fail. 

The last thing we need is a consolation to distract from that fact. 

  On 26/09/2023 at 02:30, Macca said:

There isn't an award where the midfielders don't dominate proceedings

Even the coaches very rarely give votes to backmen & forwards.  It's a midfielders medal now as it's hard to standout as a forward and backmen are now part of a zone with flooding a common practice

The only way things will change is if we go back to open forward lines as a staple (and what are the chances of that happening?)

Yup, it gets tiresome.  Accordingly, I consider this year's Brownlow winner to be Toby Greene.  Dude got within 11 votes carrying an entire team on his back from a HFF. 

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:01, Deemania since 56 said:

Nice, realistic connection, there. Is it not time that they became professional and thus, more accountable across the board of their responsibilities? The AFL has deceived us for too long about their respective talents, skills and meritorious service to the game. 

Was discussing this whilst watching the first quarter (Bris and Carlton), they’re professional AND they are part time. That’s an important distinction to be made

On a side note, a good friend of mine was an umpire for 10 years or so with the AFL and post career (roughly 10 years) he has never run more than 2km since. The training is THAT effortful.

Edited September 26, 20231 yr by Engorged Onion

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:23, Engorged Onion said:

Was discussing this whilst watching the first quarter (Bris and Carlton), they’re professional AND they are part time. That’s an important distinction to be made

On a side note, a good friend of mine was an umpire for 10 years or so with the AFL and post career (roughly 10 years) he has never run more than 2km since. The training is THAT effortful.

I haven't run more than 2m for 10 years EO

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:22, Jjrogan said:

Yup, it gets tiresome.  Accordingly, I consider this year's Brownlow winner to be Toby Greene.  Dude got within 11 votes carrying an entire team on his back from a HFF. 

And in the coaches award Toby was 30 votes behind the winner (Butters)

Interesting that the next 5 in the coaches award filled the top 5 in the Brownlow ... in fact the top 6 were the same 6 for each award

  On 26/09/2023 at 01:21, tiers said:

The result of the Brownlow voting by the umpires might be anomalous compared with the other so called expert awards but, and this is a big but, they are only ones who can see how hard the players are working on the field. It is an award for fairest and best, not for accumulating possessions, and should rightly go to a player who strives the hardest for each possession.

Coaches award votes for the impact on the result which is why, for example, defenders can often win votes for a minimal possession defensive role. This sort of analysis is beyond the umpires on the field and it is no wonder that it throws up different results.

The so called expert awards in the media also appear to be slanted towards favourite or prominent players whose stats sheets are overflowing but who might not have worked as hard or made much of a difference. Think about the "ring-a-rosy" in the backlines that often can inflate stats that have no meaning.

For all the criticism of the umpires voting, there have been no undeserving players (duds) who have won and, in any given year, there are many players who would qualify. There is an element of luck in the result especially when a team has many potential vote winners every week eg Melbourne's Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Gawn.

My own preference would be for a system that selects which player had the most influence on a result (similar to the coaches award) but I acknowledge that this would be too hard to determine by a group of independent umpires in the short time frame after a match.

Leave it alone because there is no demonstratively better system

 

Stop being so reasonable 😉

There are so many problems with the Brownlow Medal process that it isn't funny. But essentially it's a midfielder's award and Melbourne's elite midfielders take votes off each other. At the Bulldogs Bontempelli is the standout and the only reason he hasn't won the Brownlow is he's playing for a mid-range team that doesn't win enough games. Very hard to get 3 votes if your team has lost the game. Why Neale? Because he's the standout midfielder in a standout team. Clearly be benefitted from Will Ashcroft's season ending early. I feel sorry for Nick Daicos because he deserved to win. 

The finish to the season is of no more interest to me.  Move on to B&F and trades draft. Coukd not give a fig what happens now with football this year. 

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:35, old55 said:

I haven't run more than 2m for 10 years EO

But you weren’t an AFL umpire…. Or were you 🤷‍♂️😀

Will be interesting to see how Lachie Neale goes in Lions B&F award.

Relieved Petracca didnt win it. Club deserves no honours after that miserable finals performance.

Went to the round 24 Sydney V Melbourne game and there was absolutely no way I left the SCG thinking  Jack Viney was the game winner and the difference maker to warrant him getting the 3 brownlow votes.

Gulden 3, Fritta 2 and Trac 1 should have been the outcome.

Edited September 26, 20231 yr by Bring-Back-Powell

  On 26/09/2023 at 01:57, Macca said:

A fair result

Cripps & Viney also polled well above expectations

But the player with the most clearances and 2nd in contested possessions wins the award.  Fair enough

And be careful what you wish for with regards to the umpires not voting on the award ... do we really want biased, dishonest, unfair, compromised people voting on the award?  People like Buckley, Cornes & Robbo?

No thanks

Leave it as it is but I do agree that the stats should be given to the umpires as a guide

Mind you, I've seen plenty of 15 or 20 possession games being the standout and equally, plenty of high possession games having a low impact

The umpires may be placing a high emphasis on clearances & contested possessions (Neale, Cripps, Viney etc)

Yeah I agree that we wouldn't want those types of people voting on the award, so to avoid that risk, I'm happy with it staying with the umpires! 😂

I'd also be reluctant with providing the stats to the umpires at the risk they simply defer to the stats.

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:22, Jjrogan said:

Yup, it gets tiresome.  Accordingly, I consider this year's Brownlow winner to be Toby Greene.  Dude got within 11 votes carrying an entire team on his back from a HFF. 

There's an idea there - do it like yacht racing. Have the line honours go to the highest vote getter, then have handicaps for various positions.

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:05, tiers said:

It would be interesting to analyse the positions of medal winners over the decades.

I can only recall two full backs - Fred Goldsmith SM 1955, Verdun Howell StK 1959.

Back pocket Bernie Smith Geel 1951, John James Carl 1961; Brad Hardie Foot 1985

CHB - Brian Gleeson StK 1957, Neil Roberts StK1958, Gordon Collis Carl 1964, Ross Glendinning NM 1983

HBF Gavin Wanganeen Ess 1993

CHF Kelvin Templeton Foot 1980

FF Tony Lockett St K 1987

All the others were rucks, rovers, ruck rovers, centres and on-ballers. Not a single set position player since 1993 and not even a single ruckman since 1992. Maybe it is time to reconsider but there are too many conflicting themes to find the truly best solution.

Modern footy surely rewards those who attend as many contests as possible rather than those who "beat their man" and contribute to a result.

Further anamolies but did both Chris Grant (CHF) & Corey McKernan (F/R) get the most votes but miss out due to suspension?  

  On 25/09/2023 at 21:28, Jaded No More said:

Sad to see the vitriol directed at Neale online. Like he made the umpires give him votes. Really pathetic. 

Vitriol is at the umps.  Some very bizarre votes were allocated especially the 3s in same games where the player was not in their teams AFL (website) match summary best 5-6, or even in the coaches votes at all.  

only thing decent about the production was the music and the Jim Stynes award. Resented Nathan Brown and his gambling ads, peddling greed and human misery. 

  On 26/09/2023 at 01:57, Macca said:

voting on the award?  People like Buckley, Cornes & Robbo?

Since you put it like this, I see your point.

I would leave it with the umpires but maybe take the extra umps of the ground they've added lately and put them in the stands.

Integrity is still there but with increased objectivity.

Or maybe they can review and judge the games post match via video.

 

  On 26/09/2023 at 02:36, old dee said:

For a long time IMO it has been a centre players award. This year it shows how poor the voting system by the umpires is. The whole thing is devalued. Just a publicity show for the AFL and Media. 

Yep.

Needs to be three awards imv.

> Forwards

> Followers (ruck included of course)

> Defenders

The old Chas is just that.  Very old and dated now.

Need to bring it into the 21st century.

  On 26/09/2023 at 03:37, KLV said:

Stop being so reasonable 😉

Can't help it. Whole of life condition.