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Are we the slowest side?


Cranky Franky

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I thought in 2022 we were a bit slow & needed more leg speed coming out of defence, up forward & across the centre.

We then lost possibly the 3 quickest on our list Hunt, Bedford & Baker.

Our drafting was mainly KP talls who have good potential but I'm worried our lack of pace could be a real problem in 2023.

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We definitely need more speed but we looked okay in 2021! 

Was surprised we didn't take a punt on a speedy linebreaker in at least the rookie draft but you can only select what's there I guess 

Losing our three fastest players will be irrelevant as none of them were/are very good 

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Losing those 3 won't make a difference to our speed in 2023. Baker didn't play a single game, Bedford was a cameo (i did like him by seasons end though) and Hunt was used as a lockdown defender predominantly in 22, wasn't used to break lines. We aren't super quick but we are not slow either. I'll be interested to see how we move the ball next year.

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10 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm convinced that speed is more a product of ball movement, not leg speed. Teams that have a higher handball:kick ratio will be slower because the ball moves more slowly up the ground.

Absolutely agree with your first sentence. Not sure though about your second.

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We looked slow in the last half of the season especially in the last half of games because of the niggling injuries the players were selected with.

ehen we play well we are fast movers of the ball but our game plan also stopped run snd needs to be rejigger back to 2021 standard.

It has nothing to do with our age mire to how we play and the lack of aggression in our game plan snd general fitness/ minor injury issues of selection. 

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Isaac Smith is still a great runner and Gary Rohan has excellent chase down tackling but the Cats didn’t sprint their way to a flag.

The thing we need is less guys with suspect mobility - busted Lever, Tracc with a broken leg, Salo with no groins, Ben Brown, Gawn rucking 80% without an ankle.

Talls really being able to cover the ground and pressure should be a big step forward on last year. Even in first halves when Ben Brown could move we looked like a great side, once he was cooked at half time we couldn’t score. If JVR can establish himself as a mobile and physical presence we’re looking better, even if he doesn’t do much with the ball.

Apart from that we can get bounce from half back with Salem, Bowey, Rivers. We can pressure with Pickett, Nibbler, Spargo and who knows Fritsch might chase a guy once in his life.

Could do with some more outside run which Hunter hopefully helps with. A healthy JJ, Sparrow, Harmes and Gus should all fight for midfield spots. Grundy hopefully provides some inside burst too whilst holding up in the ruck.

I think we’ll miss Bedford and Hunt to an extent. We didn’t really replace either of them. Bedford would’ve been good depth especially if Pickett goes on ball more, and Hunt’s defensive spread was undervalued. Even if you didn’t like him in the best 22 he could provide 10-15 solid games that help you win in May and June.

Taj Woewodin might be a chance to be a depth defender with so toe who can give us a bit of what Hunt did.

Is Chandler good enough forward cover? Can Andy MW take a big leap despite an interrupted summer? Does slimmed down Bill Laurie suddenly run twice the speed? Is Ollie Sestan so good that we have another mobile marking target and the smalls can work around him (unlikely but that’s the joy of the offseason). 

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1 hour ago, Cranky Franky said:

I thought in 2022 we were a bit slow & needed more leg speed coming out of defence, up forward & across the centre.

We then lost possibly the 3 quickest on our list Hunt, Bedford & Baker.

Our drafting was mainly KP talls who have good potential but I'm worried our lack of pace could be a real problem in 2023.

None of them are premiership players.

Just sayin.

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25 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Isaac Smith is still a great runner and Gary Rohan has excellent chase down tackling but the Cats didn’t sprint their way to a flag.

The thing we need is less guys with suspect mobility - busted Lever, Tracc with a broken leg, Salo with no groins, Ben Brown, Gawn rucking 80% without an ankle.

Talls really being able to cover the ground and pressure should be a big step forward on last year. Even in first halves when Ben Brown could move we looked like a great side, once he was cooked at half time we couldn’t score. If JVR can establish himself as a mobile and physical presence we’re looking better, even if he doesn’t do much with the ball.

Apart from that we can get bounce from half back with Salem, Bowey, Rivers. We can pressure with Pickett, Nibbler, Spargo and who knows Fritsch might chase a guy once in his life.

Could do with some more outside run which Hunter hopefully helps with. A healthy JJ, Sparrow, Harmes and Gus should all fight for midfield spots. Grundy hopefully provides some inside burst too whilst holding up in the ruck.

I think we’ll miss Bedford and Hunt to an extent. We didn’t really replace either of them. Bedford would’ve been good depth especially if Pickett goes on ball more, and Hunt’s defensive spread was undervalued. Even if you didn’t like him in the best 22 he could provide 10-15 solid games that help you win in May and June.

Taj Woewodin might be a chance to be a depth defender with so toe who can give us a bit of what Hunt did.

Is Chandler good enough forward cover? Can Andy MW take a big leap despite an interrupted summer? Does slimmed down Bill Laurie suddenly run twice the speed? Is Ollie Sestan so good that we have another mobile marking target and the smalls can work around him (unlikely but that’s the joy of the offseason). 

Chandler should be ready. Re Laurie, very hard to significantly increase pace.

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Kozzzy has the elite speed in the forward 50.  He need to prioritize to retain him.

Hunt is a loss given that he covered a lot of small defenders in 2022 (except when Hibbo took Charlie Cameron).  Rivers might have to fill that role more.  

Bedford looked good when given an opportunity but needed to show more.  

Baker didn’t play so not missed … he simply was behind Langdon and Brayshaw and not called upon. 

Jonti Schuback in my view was the best youngster who missed out getting drafted, I’d like to see us either pickup him or add him to Casey Demons roster. He has excellent pace and skill. 

I have called out that now is the time to look forward to get youngsters with midfield speed and another half back rebounding runner in the 2023 draft. 

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4 hours ago, adonski said:

We definitely need more speed but we looked okay in 2021! 

Was surprised we didn't take a punt on a super speedy linebreaker in at least the rookie draft but you can only select what's there I guess 

Losing our three fastest players will be irrelevant as none of them were/are very good 

Maybe we'll rookie Trent Burgoyne 

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7 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm convinced that speed is more a product of ball movement, not leg speed. Teams that have a higher handball:kick ratio will be slower because the ball moves more slowly up the ground.

And that was the crux of the problem all year.

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3 hours ago, demon3165 said:

And that was the crux of the problem all year.

One of the key reasons for slow ball movement, IMHO, was the move of James Jordon to the wing. He stifles ball movement. Takes far far too long to make a decision. I think it’s the nerves of being young and not a regular 22 player. Scared to make mistakes. Many times he got the ball on a wing and held play up, which resulted in killed momentum. Lachie Hunter may fix this issue. Just my take

Edited by Kick_It_To_Pickett
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Petracca and Oliver are two of the best burst players from stoppages and are rarely caught once ahead of someone.

Leg speed is over rated and rarely the actual game breaker, ball speed was our issue last year.  Unfortunately with Salem and Tmac injured for majority of the year it took away alot of our ability to move quickly.

Salem back, and possibly Bowie, plus fwd options means we can move the ball faster, with more precision and also get ANB, Spargo and Kossie more involved who are our speedier players.

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12 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm convinced that speed is more a product of ball movement, not leg speed. Teams that have a higher handball:kick ratio will be slower because the ball moves more slowly up the ground.

Yes and particularly ‘spread’ from half back which is what the OP is desiring.

Its decision making and movement ahead and commitment to share and run on that line. Now Hunt provided that last year when others didn’t. He was the crutch of a few. The HB line will need to lift.

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13 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

One of the key reasons for slow ball movement, IMHO, was the move of James Jordon to the wing. He stifles ball movement. Takes far far too long to make a decision. I think it’s the nerves of being young and not a regular 22 player. Scared to make mistakes. Many times he got the ball on a wing and held play up, which resulted in killed momentum. Lachie Hunter may fix this issue. Just my take

You may be right, but I think to be fair to Jordon we should also consider the possibility he was playing to instructions. Often when he had the ball it was because he had made space on his wing so the ball could be safely delivered to him. Once he had it, though, there was often no-one for him to kick it too as the players in front of him were often still on the "Langdon" side of the ground. It's possible he was told to wait for the players in front of him to present opportunities rather than just bombing it forward in hope.  

PS: This is the sort of analysis which is only possible by being at the ground and watching the game live. TV coverage doesn't show this because it's not possible to show simultaneously the ball in play and also what's happening further up the ground. 

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1 hour ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

You may be right, but I think to be fair to Jordon we should also consider the possibility he was playing to instructions. Often when he had the ball it was because he had made space on his wing so the ball could be safely delivered to him. Once he had it, though, there was often no-one for him to kick it too as the players in front of him were often still on the "Langdon" side of the ground. It's possible he was told to wait for the players in front of him to present opportunities rather than just bombing it forward in hope.  

PS: This is the sort of analysis which is only possible by being at the ground and watching the game live. TV coverage doesn't show this because it's not possible to show simultaneously the ball in play and also what's happening further up the ground. 

I accept what you are saying, but being live at every game this season, sitting on the members wing, this wasn’t always the excuse. There were several occasions where we had plenty ahead of the ball and his hesitation stifled us. 

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Speed is predominately from ball movement - leg speed does factor too but nowhere near as much as we think. The main factors that contribute to fast ball movement are (as others have stated) kick to handball ratio - but its not that simple. You also need to look at what part of the field is used as well. The teams that looked lightening quick moved through the corridor - we hardly used the corridor, instead elected to play through the wings (kick to Gawn game-plan has to be scrapped).

Mark and play on rates will also contribute. MFC would take a mark, stop, evaluate and kick to wing (exaggeration but you get the point). Teams that look quicker would usually mark, overlap handball, next kick and within 5 seconds the ball would have moved 50-80m. That is enough to go from D50 to F50. It is what Collingwood's do or die gameplan in 2022 was built on. High risk, high reward. it can break defensive and isolate forwards. 

My opinion is that the game will ultimately shift to this style - it contributes to high scoring and highly entertaining football. It is what the AFL wants at the end of the day. 

 

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2 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

I accept what you are saying, but being live at every game this season, sitting on the members wing, this wasn’t always the excuse. There were several occasions where we had plenty ahead of the ball and his hesitation stifled us. 

More than half of JJ's play stifled the momentum in the wing but it doesn't happen when he is on the ball. So the excuse is not realistic. He and the midfield coach should develop patterns for him to kick to teammates. 

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21 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

One of the key reasons for slow ball movement, IMHO, was the move of James Jordon to the wing. He stifles ball movement. Takes far far too long to make a decision. I think it’s the nerves of being young and not a regular 22 player. Scared to make mistakes. Many times he got the ball on a wing and held play up, which resulted in killed momentum. Lachie Hunter may fix this issue. Just my take

Jordon was not the problem it was purely game plan going city end play the southern side, punt road end play members side and when they tried to swap no player movement or just one kick forward then hold up till players tried to spread, even bringing the ball forward there were players trying to make position inboard but they never looked, just went down the line, even the coaches admitted it need to change but all to late in the season.

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9 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Speed is predominately from ball movement - leg speed does factor too but nowhere near as much as we think. The main factors that contribute to fast ball movement are (as others have stated) kick to handball ratio - but its not that simple. You also need to look at what part of the field is used as well. The teams that looked lightening quick moved through the corridor - we hardly used the corridor, instead elected to play through the wings (kick to Gawn game-plan has to be scrapped).

Mark and play on rates will also contribute. MFC would take a mark, stop, evaluate and kick to wing (exaggeration but you get the point). Teams that look quicker would usually mark, overlap handball, next kick and within 5 seconds the ball would have moved 50-80m. That is enough to go from D50 to F50. It is what Collingwood's do or die gameplan in 2022 was built on. High risk, high reward. it can break defensive and isolate forwards. 

My opinion is that the game will ultimately shift to this style - it contributes to high scoring and highly entertaining football. It is what the AFL wants at the end of the day. 

 

certainly worthy of discussion

Percentage football may only get you so far

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On 12/21/2022 at 8:00 PM, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

One of the key reasons for slow ball movement, IMHO, was the move of James Jordon to the wing. He stifles ball movement. Takes far far too long to make a decision. I think it’s the nerves of being young and not a regular 22 player. Scared to make mistakes. Many times he got the ball on a wing and held play up, which resulted in killed momentum. Lachie Hunter may fix this issue. Just my take

I’m 100% with you on this. It drove me crazy.

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