Has a former South Australian ever won a Premiership with a Victorian based Club?

3 minutes ago, Sorry kids said:

Has a former South Australian ever won a Premiership with a Victorian based Club?

Gunston

7 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

I don’t know how in depth our review was or wasn’t, but I do agree with @Lucifer's Hero on the point of the PF loss is very similar to our losses to Dons and Saints this year in the way the opposition has set-up against us.

Watching the PF live at Optus all I can remember early from the game is seeing two of their quickest players in Rioli and Ryan setting up defensively on a flank each just outside our defensive 50 forcing our defenders trying to clear down the middle a lot where turnovers were created resulting in scores for them.

The Dons hardly started Tippa and Fantasia inside 50 in Round 3 where you would have thought they would be most dangerous. It seemed they were used as high half forwards/wings at the time using their speed to block our rebounds and counter us quickly. 

Again on Saturday, Billings and Gresham were used the same way. Might be just coincidence, but simply from an observational point of view the similarities are striking.

And going by this clubs have reviewed and done their homework on us over the summer on the way we set up and now have exposed our leaky defence. 

Smart by other clubs... 

3 minutes ago, Sorry kids said:

Has a former South Australian ever won a Premiership with a Victorian based Club?

Do you mean as a player or a coach? And do you mean born in SA? Or drafted from there?

Plenty of players have, such as Stephen Kernahan, Craig Bradley (and probably half of all Carlton teams back in the day).

16 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

I don’t know how in depth our review was or wasn’t, but I do agree with @Lucifer's Hero on the point of the PF loss is very similar to our losses to Dons and Saints this year in the way the opposition has set-up against us.

Watching the PF live at Optus all I can remember early from the game is seeing two of their quickest players in Rioli and Ryan setting up defensively on a flank each just outside our defensive 50 forcing our defenders trying to clear down the middle a lot where turnovers were created resulting in scores for them.

The Dons hardly started Tippa and Fantasia inside 50 in Round 3 where you would have thought they would be most dangerous. It seemed they were used as high half forwards/wings at the time using their speed to block our rebounds and counter us quickly. 

Again on Saturday, Billings and Gresham were used the same way. Might be just coincidence, but simply from an observational point of view the similarities are striking.

Good analysis, DZ.

I'd be interested to see if, in the games we won, whether or not teams set up the same way, but we were able to control the game better.  West Coast got a look at us two rounds out from finals and made the necessary adjustments in the Prelim, although we were way off our game as well.  

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Prove to me that we ignored it.  His point is that we didn't do a review of that Prelim Game, when in fact we did, albeit not the usual one we do.

Wise to give less attention and rigour than you might normally do to any smashing, especially one nearing the pinnacle of this profession (prelim final), is a VERY foolish move IF that is what has occured.  And i'm not saying in concrete the FD didn't fully review as per normal, but all "press speak" from Goody would suggest that he and/or the FD didn't review as deeply as they might usually do (assuming they do so as a matter of course when a match is lost etc).

Assuming he isn't lying to the press and us as members (a dangerous assumption i realise but we can only take what Goody says on face value) then for whatever reason he has not been as professional as he normally would because of his own beliefs.....rather than, potentially, the cold hard facts of the outcome following an in depth inclusive review, by his entire review team (whoever that might be).

If the above is in any away close to the truth, then as the Head Coach, Goody has let himself, the players/members and club as a whole, down very badly and as a minimum he has not carried out his role professionally, in this particular instance.

Luck has certainly played a part in the systemic fall from grace through pre-season injuries/surgeries as has some ordinary (or worse) form from a select group of players.  The players should not be completely exonerated in some cases (others are performing at a reasonable level or have even improved on their 2018 so far and should be encouraged).  No, our current fall doesn't all lie at the foot of SG & the FD.  But i'm afraid it would appear (as an outsider) that SG also played a very big part in the present sorry state of affairs on the field by playing down a Prelim Final result that, if he was being honest, should have received at least the same, if not double, the scrutiny of a normal ugly H&A loss.

With the extended number of outs early in the season this has also exposed how ordinary our list actually is, outside of our best 22 (when fit).  Most players outside our best 22 are simply not up to AFL level in any way shape or form (now....some might be in years to come).  The cupboard is pretty much completely bare down there.  If the club decides at some point (IF SG & Co. can't right the ship by mid season) that a mid season review of all levels is required, then the present 'depth' (or lack thereof) debacle, needs to be at the top of that review list.  Regardless that aspect needs a full review ASAP.  It's one of the major reasons the SG game style is now flopping in front of our eyes.

Edited April 23, 20196 yr by Rusty Nails

12 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Do you mean as a player or a coach? And do you mean born in SA? Or drafted from there?

Plenty of players have, such as Stephen Kernahan, Craig Bradley (and probably half of all Carlton teams back in the day).

I mean as a Coach. That is a former SA born player who played for a SA AFL Club. As in Goodwins case

“We want to play hard footy and we want to win. We’re not doing that and as a result we’re not winning, so we’ve got to change that.”

Why are you blokes rattling on about prelim reviews and gameplans? It's only about hardness apparently according to our captain Hodge Junior.

 

Edited April 23, 20196 yr by John Demonic

1 minute ago, John Demonic said:

“We want to play hard footy and we want to win. We’re not doing that and as a result we’re not winning, so we’ve got to change that.”

Why are you blokes rattling on about prelim reviews and gameplans? It's only about hardness apparently according to our captain Hodge Junior.

 

A very overated  player and ordinary Captain

 

54 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Thanks.  That's the point I'm trying to make.

I'm firmly in the camp that how we returned to pre-season training, the off season surgeries etc are far more to blame for the start to the year we've had.  As others in the media have discussed, our game is predicated on that manic style of football where we run, run and run.  We don't have the fitness to do it right now (which is on the players) and we're being found out.

We might have gotten rolled a few times last season, but I also recall that game style working interstate and in two important finals.  Do we need to make large changes to a gamestyle that worked more often than it didn't?

Maybe we could have made a few more tweaks, but as I said above, I put down the game plan falling down to a side that is not fit enough to implement it the way it should be.

That is not quite right.

You could argue that the defence and maybe mid field issues are caused to some extent by lack of fitness, but not the forward 50's.

We in fact have more inside 50's than the sides that beat us. That is the gameplan and structure.

Having a totally congested forward 50 and relying on chaos footy is purely the gameplan. It is not working. Bombing long is killing us. We need separation. We need to get our key forwards one out to give them a chance. We need to get them leading to give them a chance. We need crumbers, not 6 flying for the ball at the same time with no one down.

We need to clear up the forward 50 so that players coming from up field have options to kick to.

Yes we need our forwards to apply absolute pressure and stop defensive run and spread from our forward 50,  but it is the gameplan that is killing us in that part of the ground which is then causing the problems at the other end.

 

18 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Wise to give less attention and rigour than you might normally do to any smashing, especially one nearing the pinnacle of this profession (prelim final), is a VERY foolish move IF that is what has occured.  And i'm not saying in concrete the FD didn't fully review as per normal, but all "press speak" from Goody would suggest that he and/or the FD didn't review as deeply as they might usually do (assuming they do so as a matter of course when a match is lost etc).

Assuming he isn't lying to the press and us as members (a dangerous assumption i realise but we can only take what Goody says on face value) then for whatever reason he has not been as professional as he normally would because of his own beliefs.....rather than, potentially, the cold hard facts of the outcome following an in depth inclusive review, by his entire review team (whoever that might be).

If the above is in any away close to the truth, then as the Head Coach, Goody has let himself, the players/members and club as a whole, down very badly and as a minimum he has not carried out his role professionally, in this particular instance.

Luck has certainly played a part in the systemic fall from grace through pre-season injuries/surgeries as has some ordinary (or worse) form from a select group of players.  The players should not be completely exonerated in some cases (others are performing at a reasonable level or have even improved on their 2018 so far and should be encouraged).  No, our current fall doesn't all lie at the foot of SG & the FD.  But i'm afraid it would appear (as an outsider) that SG also played a very big part in the present sorry state of affairs on the field by playing down a Prelim Final result that, if he was being honest, should have received at least the same, if not double, the scrutiny of a normal ugly H&A loss.

With the extended number of outs early in the season this has also exposed how ordinary our list actually is, outside of our best 22 (when fit).  Most players outside our best 22 are simply not up to AFL level in any way shape or form (now....some might be in years to come).  The cupboard is pretty much completely bare down there.  If the club decides at some point (IF SG & Co. can't right the ship by mid season) that a mid season review of all levels is required, then the present 'depth' (or lack thereof) debacle, needs to be at the top of that review list.  Regardless that aspect needs a full review ASAP.  It's one of the major reasons the SG game style is now flopping in front of our eyes.

In summary you could say it is arrogant to only consider your performance and not that of the team that beat you.

To simply say we didn't play our game, is to ignore what the other team did to cause that.

That is what he is continually saying each week. 

It ignores what others are doing to you.

Edited April 23, 20196 yr by Redleg

4 minutes ago, Redleg said:

In summary you could say it is arrogant to only consider your performance and not that of the team that beat you.

To simply say we didn't play our game, is to ignore what the other team did to cause that.

That is what he is continually saying each week. 

It ignores what others are doing to you.

Nailed it

19 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Good analysis, DZ.

I'd be interested to see if, in the games we won, whether or not teams set up the same way, but we were able to control the game better.  West Coast got a look at us two rounds out from finals and made the necessary adjustments in the Prelim, although we were way off our game as well.  

I’m still hanging onto the fact our FD has tried to make adjustments Wise over pre season. No doubt we have become the hunted, maybe Goody hasn’t had the desired players available to adjust for one reason or another and has made do with what’s available.

Bottom line is we have a game tomorrow night, everything seems against us and it would be some sort of win if we can do it. As frustrating as it is right now, I don’t think many on here are going anywhere. 

Roos comments on players coming back into pre season who didn’t have operations were underdone is very concerning if true .  The culture needs to be questioned that making a prelim was enough for them ..  I back Roos as I’m sure he has strong contacts with players & no doubt are talking!

14 minutes ago, Redleg said:

That is not quite right.

You could argue that the defence and maybe mid field issues are caused to some extent by lack of fitness, but not the forward 50's.

We in fact have more inside 50's than the sides that beat us. That is the gameplan and structure.

Having a totally congested forward 50 and relying on chaos footy is purely the gameplan. It is not working. Bombing long is killing us. We need separation. We need to get our key forwards one out to give them a chance. We need to get them leading to give them a chance. We need crumbers, not 6 flying for the ball at the same time with no one down.

In terms of our forward line, what changed over summer?  It seemed to work pretty well most weeks in 2018.

We've lost Hannan and, from the second half of the year, AVB to injury.  We lost Hogan to Freo.  We also have players like Garlett and Spargo out of form, while Melksham and Tom Mac spent a large part of the summer with injuries and their form, especially T Mac's, reflects this.  Our forward line is all over the shop, and while teams seem to have worked us out a little, I think the loss of talent, coupled with the fitness levels and the injuries, has hampered how we function down there.

I know there are supporters who disagree with how I see things, and that's fine.  I haven't denied that the gameplan could have used some tweaks over the summer, but the loss of some key personnel, both on the trade front and injury front, has severely affected what is happening down there.

Seldom have the words professional and MFC gone together in the last fifty years there have been short periods like when PJ and Roos where together but generally not for the vast length of that period. First Roos left and then PJ and since we have gradually wound back to situation normal with Goodwin and now Pert. I still wonder what the rush was to renew Goodwin's contract. It is not as though he was likely to be seduced by another club. Oh well it is back to normal with another season over before we get to May. Go Dees! 

19 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Bottom line is we have a game tomorrow night, everything seems against us and it would be some sort of win if we can do it. As frustrating as it is right now, I don’t think many on here are going anywhere. 

Even though i've mocked the captain for condensing all of what i perceive as gameplan issues against fast teams down to 'hardness' - we're lucky in that we're coming up against Richmond, the 2017/18 style measuring stick. where hardness and extraordinary effort might actually be the defining characteristic of matching the Tigers and winning tomorrow. I just hope our forwards and mids defend the ground ball/rebound in the forward line with their life ie with hardness! A gritty win will alleviate some of these sorrows at least for a week.

What would be totally ironic would be if RIchmond, sensing that our club has been waiting for a year to redeem ourselves since last years chaosball championship , adopt the framework layed by others ie WCE control/possession and spread game style and beat us that way.

Edited April 23, 20196 yr by John Demonic

Thanks Wiseblood and Redleg for your intelligent analysis and reason. Your comments make the site and this post worth visiting. 

I'm afraid bagging players and coach do nothing for me.

One simple issue I have with Viney and Goodwins comments on game plan and contested ball is that all teams play hard contested footy. Some might do it better on any one day, but it has always been a prerequisite for AFL teams, probably always has been. Like kicking and marking the b..... thing.  To suggest that this style of footy that MFC play is something different or special or that it gives us an advantage is strange.  This year, we have teams that have been just as effective or even more effective than us, but they have a few more strings to their bow than we do. 

To be a successful coach you need to motivate players but you also need to be very creative and think outside the square. Just as a successful company does not succeed by doing the same thing every day. New ideas, innovation, and change is required from the top down. To stick to the same thing when it is failing is not going to bring rewards. 

The most successful coaches have always been creative and innovative. Coaches such as Chequer Hughes, Norm Smith, Barassi, Matthews, Clarkson etc all have this in common. And there are many others who seem to be full of ideas and willingness to adopt different game plans, methods, and tactics. 

We needed to pinch the flag last year a la doggies 2016. We are well and truly headed down the same  path minus the chocolates of a random unexpected flag. Classic Melbourne. 
 

1 hour ago, Sorry kids said:

Has a former South Australian ever won a Premiership with a Victorian based Club?

Clarko...  is that you ? 

 

Welcome back over to Red'n'Blue,  Ol' matey.

 

.

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

In terms of our forward line, what changed over summer?  It seemed to work pretty well most weeks in 2018.

We've lost Hannan and, from the second half of the year, AVB to injury.  We lost Hogan to Freo.  We also have players like Garlett and Spargo out of form, while Melksham and Tom Mac spent a large part of the summer with injuries and their form, especially T Mac's, reflects this.  Our forward line is all over the shop, and while teams seem to have worked us out a little, I think the loss of talent, coupled with the fitness levels and the injuries, has hampered how we function down there.

I know there are supporters who disagree with how I see things, and that's fine.  I haven't denied that the gameplan could have used some tweaks over the summer, but the loss of some key personnel, both on the trade front and injury front, has severely affected what is happening down there.

Not disagreeing with that, but the game plan shares blame for our position.

Gameplans can be changed. Port changed theirs as admitted by the players and they beat the Premier on their dung heap.

15 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Not disagreeing with that, but the game plan shares blame for our position.

Gameplans can be changed. Port changed theirs as admitted by the players and they beat the Premier on their dung heap.

I would think an aggressive press is unsustainable week after week, far too physically taxing on the players. 

An aggressive press is a weapon to use sporadically in my view, not a “brand”

But the coach seems to think differently 

2 hours ago, Redleg said:

In summary you could say it is arrogant to only consider your performance and not that of the team that beat you.

To simply say we didn't play our game, is to ignore what the other team did to cause that.

That is what he is continually saying each week. 

It ignores what others are doing to you.

This is fair, and there is a significant degree of stubbornness attached to Goodwin and his public comments about our form.

But I think it's hard to expect too much strategic discussion to be exposed publicly. Like, I'm not sure how many coaches come out and say things like "opposition sides are doing X to us and it's working".

What I'm trying to say is that whilst all we seem to hear from Goodwin is a focus on our poor form, that doesn't necessarily mean we don't consider what our opponents are doing to us to cause that poor form. We just might not talk about it publicly.

Of course, if we are looking at what our opponents are doing to us and we're still not improving, that's in some respects worse.

23 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

This is fair, and there is a significant degree of stubbornness attached to Goodwin and his public comments about our form.

But I think it's hard to expect too much strategic discussion to be exposed publicly. Like, I'm not sure how many coaches come out and say things like "opposition sides are doing X to us and it's working".

What I'm trying to say is that whilst all we seem to hear from Goodwin is a focus on our poor form, that doesn't necessarily mean we don't consider what our opponents are doing to us to cause that poor form. We just might not talk about it publicly.

Of course, if we are looking at what our opponents are doing to us and we're still not improving, that's in some respects worse.

Goodwin seems to me the type that wants to play 'our brand' regardless of the opposition or the location or the team that we select. It's unbelievable arrogance. I get having certain team traits such as contested footy and tackling but it is stupid to have one way to play regardless of the circumstances. And particularly when its not working in a game

12 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Goodwin seems to me the type that wants to play 'our brand' regardless of the opposition or the location or the team that we select. It's unbelievable arrogance. I get having certain team traits such as contested footy and tackling but it is stupid to have one way to play regardless of the circumstances. And particularly when its not working in a game

Fully agree with this, and it has been an issue for Goodwin for more than 12 months now. Couple that with his unwillingness to pick a side that in any way combats opposition strengths (namely St Kilda's outside run, and selecting a suitable opponent for Membrey this week), and he is playing a very dangerous game indeed.