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rjay

Should they be called out???

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https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-02-24/crows-players-call-out-racist-slur-on-betts

It seems Eddie Betts has been the subject of racist comments yet again.

Good on the AFL community for getting behind Betts, he seems a really decent guy.

He was my dear mothers favourite player, she was not big on footy but would always watch Friday nights when Eddie was playing.

One thing I'm interested in understanding is that when reporting on these kind of social media posts, the offending post (or person postings name or online name) seems to be blocked or removed.

Shouldn't the person posting be saddled with the responsibility for what they post along with the flak? Is there a good reason to block this content?

Are we really protecting the poster? Do they deserve to be protected from their own comments, stupid, ill founded or otherwise?

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The issue here is that there is no way of knowing if the person making the comments on social media is using their real name.  In some comments sections, you’ll find most people commenting are using ‘fake’ profiles.

There is, for example, nothing stopping me from creating a Facebook profile with someone’s else’s name, even using a photo of them found online, then making the disgusting comments online.

The angry mob wouldn’t then come looking for me, they’d come looking for them.

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Of course they should be called out.  I would think the Crows have the police and the social media platform the post was made on track the real person. 

Eddie has dignity, skill and patience. Feel for him.  A much respected person of the game.  Deserves better. 

I would be over-the-top livid if this happened to our equivalent: Jetta.

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
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I'm always flabbergasted that people still do this sort of stuff.  I mean, what in the world does it achieve?  

I agree that they should be named and shamed.  Deleting the post almost gives them the anonymity they don't deserve.

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I’m a little confused because I though the alleged slur was just a commonly used phrase, and would seem appropriate in the context, except for the fact Betts is indigenous and it has been construed as much more.

Or is there something I have missed? Admittedly, I’ve only seen the comment in passing.

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17 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

I’m a little confused because I though the alleged slur was just a commonly used phrase, and would seem appropriate in the context, except for the fact Betts is indigenous and it has been construed as much more.

Or is there something I have missed? Admittedly, I’ve only seen the comment in passing.

Honestly I can't see how 'monkey see monkey do' has anything to do with a couple of guys arriving at an event? For that matter, been a while since that was any kind of a commonly used phrase.

If you think it through, the only way someone could come up with 'Monkey see monkey do' as something to comment on that picture is if they were really, really searching for a way to insert monkey into a comment.

I do wish the reaction had been a little more on the 'what a loser, how tedious, bugger off, you're not normal anymore you creep' tone, rather than the 'omg so hurtful' tone. 

Success in this comes when Indigenous people's feeling when this cr4p happens is 'I'm normal and welcome here, you're not, just bugger off you insect'.

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“Monkey see, monkey do” is a phrase I use sometimes and I’m in my early thirties. I don’t think it’s that rare.

When I saw it, I immediately understood it to mean that the AFLX players were just copying what they have seen elsewhere in American sports (with disdain), and kept looking for another comment that could be seen as more directly offensive.

I admit it that on reflection it was likely intended to elicit such a response, but hardly conclusive. It’s not cut & dried. Having said that, I’d expect a coward to hide behind such an ambiguity.

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There is a long and rich history of black people being called 'monkey', regardless of the phrase. Just ask McChin.

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1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Of course they should be called out.  I would think the Crows have the police and the social media platform the post was made on track the real person. 

Eddie has dignity, skill and patience. Feel for him.  A much respected person of the game.  Deserves better. 

I would be over-the-top livid if this happened to our equivalent: Jetta.

Sorry chap, already happened to Nev, but verbally at the G whilst he was playing, unfortunately within earshot of his wife

The perpetrator was allowed to live but was ejected

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1 hour ago, Mach5 said:

I’m a little confused because I though the alleged slur was just a commonly used phrase, and would seem appropriate in the context, except for the fact Betts is indigenous and it has been construed as much more.

Or is there something I have missed? Admittedly, I’ve only seen the comment in passing.

 

46 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

“Monkey see, monkey do” is a phrase I use sometimes and I’m in my early thirties. I don’t think it’s that rare.

When I saw it, I immediately understood it to mean that the AFLX players were just copying what they have seen elsewhere in American sports (with disdain), and kept looking for another comment that could be seen as more directly offensive.

I admit it that on reflection it was likely intended to elicit such a response, but hardly conclusive. It’s not cut & dried. Having said that, I’d expect a coward to hide behind such an ambiguity.

'Mach', it's not cut & dried as you say but my guess is the person that posted it knew exactly the double meaning and was being a total Smart A.....

It's not great mate and as you say a coward will hide behind that kind of ambiguity.

 

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On 2/24/2019 at 4:04 PM, rjay said:

https://www.afl.com.au/news/2019-02-24/crows-players-call-out-racist-slur-on-betts

It seems Eddie Betts has been the subject of racist comments yet again.

Good on the AFL community for getting behind Betts, he seems a really decent guy.

He was my dear mothers favourite player, she was not big on footy but would always watch Friday nights when Eddie was playing.

One thing I'm interested in understanding is that when reporting on these kind of social media posts, the offending post (or person postings name or online name) seems to be blocked or removed.

Shouldn't the person posting be saddled with the responsibility for what they post along with the flak? Is there a good reason to block this content?

Are we really protecting the poster? Do they deserve to be protected from their own comments, stupid, ill founded or otherwise?

Just commenting on your last few questions, and not specific to this particular case: Yes, offending content should be removed. It's not "protecting the poster" to do so; rather, it's protecting the person who has been vilified. Whether comments are derogatory, racist or defamatory, they should always be removed.

As has been stated here many times on Demonland, there is no such thing as unqualified free speech. There are  laws against vilification, racism, hate speech and defamation.

 

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On 2/24/2019 at 4:40 PM, Wiseblood said:

I'm always flabbergasted that people still do this sort of stuff.  I mean, what in the world does it achieve?  

I agree that they should be named and shamed.  Deleting the post almost gives them the anonymity they don't deserve.

I am surprised you are surprised wiseblood. Have you not noticed how embolded the racists are in 2019? They hold meetings in public that are attended by thousands across Australia and the world. That a few put up their hands at AFL is hardly surprising to me.

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On 2/24/2019 at 6:09 PM, Satyriconhome said:

Sorry chap, already happened to Nev, but verbally at the G whilst he was playing, unfortunately within earshot of his wife

The perpetrator was allowed to live but was ejected

Luci’s a chap-ette Saty, FYI only.

What you’ve shared is awful, I hope they gave him a decent clip on the way to the car park.

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On 2/24/2019 at 1:40 PM, Wiseblood said:

I'm always flabbergasted that people still do this sort of stuff.  I mean, what in the world does it achieve?  

I agree that they should be named and shamed.  Deleting the post almost gives them the anonymity they don't deserve.

Probably, provided that their identity is definitely confirmed: as Lucifer pointed out, identities can be stolen and / or faked.

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Yeah, this sort of [censored] is thankfully dying, bit by bit, from all side of the spectrum.

Thankfully you dont see/hear it as much as you used too.

Im no PC warrior, but this sort of thing is OOB in most peoples opinion. Especially when a top bloke like Eddie is concerned.

I would expect the AFL community to have the same reaction if it was Nev who was targeted. I know i would.

WGAF what colour your skin is these days. The content of your character and all that.

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Racist behavior should always be called out, with perpetrators named and shamed. 

The problem with this of course is that in calling it out in this fashion, you are giving the people responsible for the comments exactly what they want - a reaction and exposure. Psychologists have long established that so called "trolls" seek exactly this. And in reality, media outlets jumping on anonymous comments like this almost glorifies the action and encourages others who may be inclined to behave in this way to do so.  

I've long been an advocate for the diminishing of any rights to be anonymous on social media platforms, and this is one of the reasons. Given how entrenched the internet is in our daily lives now, I see a lot of value in persuading the giant social media platforms to enforce policies of positive identification for the creation and use of social media accounts. People will inherently be less likely to behave in this way if there was no mechanism to remain anonymous, and could be held to account for hateful speech like they would outside of social media. Some of the numbers around youth mental health issues directly correlated to online bullying is nothing short of heartbreaking, and frankly an issue no generation has had to face until now. Social media anonymity should not be a basic human right, therefore should be treated as any other privilege is in that it is subject to checks and balances that prevent human beings from intentionally harming others. We are living in unprecedented times and a more proactive approach in terms of legislation is required in these areas, or we will continue to provide the soap box of a lifetime for people who want nothing more than to get a reaction out of people. 

As a cyber security professional (architecture) you could argue my opinion here is biased, and perhaps it is, and I appreciate the logistics of what I am suggesting is incredibly complicated and difficult on many levels. I only suggest that we start to open the doors to these discussions around long term strategies that deal with these new ages problems, because things like the increase in youth suicide rates directly attributable to social media anxieties won't go away on their own.  
 

Feel free to pick apart my opinion, I enjoy the discussion this normally generates. 

 

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For mine, the supporters of a completely digitally connected society are sounding a lot like communists from the 1950's onward. 

They have an ideal of what their ideal world would look like but how that world works in practice is very different. While Zuckerberg's corporate drones talk about awareness raising, making connections and building social capital through collaborative efforts, the reality of what a lot of it is are trolling that pushes the bounds of common decency, self absorption and a continual fracturing of the social contract, not to mention the role SNS has played in undermining democracy in the West, the role it has played in the harassment of journalists and sparking the genocide in Myanmar.

The canary in the coal mine was the Mitchell Henderson 'an hero' meme, snowballed into Gamergate and has bought us to where we are today where the US president is a part time government official and full time misanthropic internet troll.

How do we fix this? I can't come up with a solution that will bear fruit in the next 10 years because kids are now incultrated with this mindset. It will take minds much better than mine to come to with a long term solution.

 

 

Edited by Hillary Bray
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15 minutes ago, Hillary Bray said:

For mine, the supporters of a completely digitally connected society are sounding a lot like communists from the 1950's onward. 

They have an ideal of what their ideal world would look like but how that world works in practice is very different. While Zuckerberg's corporate drones talk about awareness raising, making connections and building social capital through collaborative efforts, the reality of what a lot of it is are trolling that pushes the bounds of common decency, self absorption and a continual fracturing of the social contract, not to mention the role SNS has played in undermining democracy in the West, the role it has played in the harassment of journalists and sparking the genocide in Myanmar.

The canary in the coal mine was the Mitchell Henderson 'an hero' meme, snowballed into Gamergate and has bought us to where we are today where the US president is a part time government official and full time misanthropic internet troll.

How do we fix this? I can't come up with a solution that will bear fruit in the next 10 years because kids are now incultrated with this mindset. It will take minds much better than mine to come to with a long term solution.

 

 

For a person whose interests are listed as "Apathy", this is one helluva posting!

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49 minutes ago, Hillary Bray said:

For mine, the supporters of a completely digitally connected society are sounding a lot like communists from the 1950's onward. 

They have an ideal of what their ideal world would look like but how that world works in practice is very different. While Zuckerberg's corporate drones talk about awareness raising, making connections and building social capital through collaborative efforts, the reality of what a lot of it is are trolling that pushes the bounds of common decency, self absorption and a continual fracturing of the social contract, not to mention the role SNS has played in undermining democracy in the West, the role it has played in the harassment of journalists and sparking the genocide in Myanmar.

The canary in the coal mine was the Mitchell Henderson 'an hero' meme, snowballed into Gamergate and has bought us to where we are today where the US president is a part time government official and full time misanthropic internet troll.

How do we fix this? I can't come up with a solution that will bear fruit in the next 10 years because kids are now incultrated with this mindset. It will take minds much better than mine to come to with a long term solution.

 

 

should you try ?...   just more social engineering hillary.

 

Learnings will be taken by our society as the peoples gradually learn for them/ourselves.

 

... should you try to deny the truth for us all, from OUR experiences ?

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The problem with the internet and social media, is that now the countless morons who's opinion nobody cares about, get to voice their racist, homophobic, idiotic garbage opinions for all to see. The internet has made us more aware of how many scumbags there really are in the world. 

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22 minutes ago, Jaded said:

The problem with the internet and social media, is that now the countless morons who's opinion nobody cares about, get to voice their racist, homophobic, idiotic garbage opinions for all to see. The internet has made us more aware of how many scumbags there really are in the world. 

The problem from that, Jaded, is that while racism, etc seems to be on the decline, the noise that they make through social media is on the increase, especially as they know that it will be broadcast through mainstream media (ie getting the message to a greater audience).

We can't take away the (social media) platform that these trolls are using to get their voice out there, but we can really reduce the sound of their voice by not giving it the light of day.  It will fast become a lonely little world that these people live in.

Does that excuse them for making such comments?  No.  But this is the world we now live, and it will continue to get worse before it gets any better.

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1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

The problem from that, Jaded, is that while racism, etc seems to be on the decline, the noise that they make through social media is on the increase, especially as they know that it will be broadcast through mainstream media (ie getting the message to a greater audience).

We can't take away the (social media) platform that these trolls are using to get their voice out there, but we can really reduce the sound of their voice by not giving it the light of day.  It will fast become a lonely little world that these people live in.

Does that excuse them for making such comments?  No.  But this is the world we now live, and it will continue to get worse before it gets any better.

That’s true. But social media has become yet another avenue for bullies to be bullies and it is far harder to monitor or punish people online who use fake profiles and false identities to be [censored]. 

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3 hours ago, Hillary Bray said:

For mine, the supporters of a completely digitally connected society are sounding a lot like communists from the 1950's onward.

Thank you Hillary. Marc-Ange Draco here.

We have heard these words before. "Ah, but that's not PURE communism. PURE communism would get you the results we predicted." All the while ignoring the fact that pure communism is so completely antisocial, normal people reject it in droves. It can't work. It's against human nature.

Through a fluke of nature, IT nerds somehow became cool. (A strange phenomenon worth of study in its own right. It's as if international scrabble tournament players became celebrities and their every enunciation press-worthy, with the ordinary masses goggling over their wisdom and insight.) Gates, Jobs ... then Zuckerberg. With a  cool person, it's possible to overlook their character flaws. Zuckerberg has the greatest character flaws you can imagine. Basically, he's an odious little [censored] trapped in a man's body. And too immature to see it or do anything about it.

 

3 hours ago, Hillary Bray said:

How do we fix this? I can't come up with a solution that will bear fruit in the next 10 years because kids are now incultrated with this mindset. It will take minds much better than mine to come to with a long term solution.

I'm not normally a pessimist, but I think we're stuck with it until the next generation fixes it. A truism, maybe too simple to be bear out in real life and the long stretch of history,  but I believe the kids of the kids you reference, I think (I hope, I trust), will rebel and correct the errors of their elders.

 

If you read Churchill's history of the English speaking peoples, you will see that a lot of [censored] has happened in 2000 years, and essentially, everything old is new again. We've been through a lot of turmoil over centuries, and even though the current generation may end up as collateral damage, goodness and rightness will shine through eventually. (Again, human nature.)

We see glimpses of it even now. Long live the younger generations. They are easily dismissed, but they see as far as we older and supposedly wiser ones.

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