POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 7

[DeeZee 7,396]

That's the thing, we've waited all this time for Tommy Mac to develop but his kicking seems to be getting worse if that's possible , what to do if you are the coach?

[dazzledavey36 54,944]

3 hours ago, DeeZee said:

Terry Wallace just saying on SEN that Melbourne will never have real success while the McDonald brothers play in the same side.

Says while they are athletic and can intercept, they are very poor decision makers and ultimately cost the team.

Been saying this since the start of last year. More so on Tom McDonald who just drinks his own bath water. Continues to kill us with simple errors. Id like to give Oscar a bit more time but jesus.. sometimes i think we have our very own Zac Dawson when watching Oscar spud it up.

Sam Frost for me is our best number 1 defender. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

2 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

That's the thing, we've waited all this time for Tommy Mac to develop but his kicking seems to be getting worse if that's possible , what to do if you are the coach?

Sleepless nights for the Coaches this week. We need some radical adjustments otherwise Adelaide will rip us to shreds for 4 Quarters

they have had their one bad day. 

We have to match them

[MudDogs Gawn Win.. someday 499]

25 minutes ago, DemonOX said:

Yet another weekend ruined by the MFC after another pathetic display and to top it off a week of work ahead FMD. 

This club really knows how to continually punish its supporters and I've had an absolute gutful tbh and by some of the postings here I am not alone.

Will this ever end!

No

[DeeZone 9,842]

Hopefully hard when the opposition have two quality sizes ruckmen to our zilch. Need some more run and toughness in the side. A couple need to go back to VFL and possibly stay there. Go Dee's !!!!

[Willmoy1947 4,089]

42 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Don't ususally agree with Wallace but he is on to something.

I said at the start of the season our defence is our biggest problem and it still is. We need a big reliable KP backman that can distribute the ball efficiently and make sound decisions.

I suspect the coaches thought Melksham, Hibberd, Salem, Jetta, Frost and Hunt would be able to distribute the ball but it's not working well yet. We still leak groups of goals really easily.

Tom I think has actually improved but still has at least 5 or 6 disposals that put his teamates under extreme pressure. He is a great intercept mark but that disposal.....

Oscar just isn't there yet. May well get there but he is being iosolated one on one and found out at the moment.

Firstly, not too concerned about the losses, at this stage. That said, looked hard at Tom . I think it's further up the ground where lies the problem, not all the time but some of the time. He's ready to play on and deliver but the safe option in Tom's eyes isn't there, maybe because no one has made the effort to get there, so he falters. Does anyone else think that maybe we are not fit ( smart) enough yet. We were a long way behind and players have said this is their hardest year.

There is so much to weigh up at Melbourne, i don't really care about other teams. We have some wonderfully developing players. I get pee'd off like others but been a real ride back in time for some quarters, hasn't it?

[Macca 16,970]

The clearance numbers are often a misnomer.  In terms of clean clearances we were shockingly awful. 

Without Gawn and to a lesser extent, Spencer, we're probably only going to get our clean clearance numbers up when the other mob aren't very good (Essendon)  In all our other losses this year we've been down a lot on the clean clearance count (in terms of what those clean clearances could be if we had a proper ruckman)

When Gawn taps the ball to our advantage we're often able to bring the ball into our forward line crisply and with purpose.  Spencer is obviously not as good but Jake is still a big step up from what we've got going for us now.

We might have sharked more taps yesterday but we wasted the ball when we did get it.  And we were often under extreme pressure when we did shark the taps.  A tap to advantage is exactly that. 

The other area where we were atrocious was in our around the ground turnovers and our general fumbling.  In both areas we were deplorable.

The clean clearances will remain problematic until at least Spencer returns but the turnovers & fumbling needs to be eradicated as soon as possible.  If we don't improve those 2 latter areas against the Crows we'll get smashed.  As it stands, their rucks will probably have a field day anyway - and that will probably be enough for them to win the game.

 

[drdrake 3,163]

25 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

That's the thing, we've waited all this time for Tommy Mac to develop but his kicking seems to be getting worse if that's possible , what to do if you are the coach?

Garry Lyon mentioned this last week on the radio, you restrict him.  Tom you are a good player but you can only kick 50m down the or at the worse kick to someone a mile by themselves.  Never kick short to a player that has a man with in 10m of him.  The problem is we create of half back, we want to hit the corridor and with our current key defenders we have no confidence they can do this. 

[Young Blood 2,620]

42 minutes ago, A F said:

Wallace is usually a mug, but I think he has this one right. Frost is still raw, but I suspect he is going to make it. Get a Jake Lever-type already, Lever and May if necessary and our defence will look so much better.

Hawthorn built a dynasty on the back of reliable kickers off half back. The game has moved on, but good disposal will always be king, especially with our highly attacking game style. Both McDonald's are a liability with ball in hand and in a big final will cost us. Bookmark it.

Oscar is better than Tom with ball in hand, but I'm not sure we can wait 4-5 years for him to develop like we've waited for his brother.

This is just a sample of the experience of our backline compared to Hawthorns. Yes they built a dynasty but they built it over TIME. I'm leaving Tommy Mac and Hibberd out but I've left Burgoyne out here too. Just look at the difference. We need to give these guys time to develop.

Oscar McDonald - 21 (22 games)

Jayden Hunt - 22 (26 games)

Josh Wagner - 22 (15 games)

Sam Frost - 23 (22 games for MFC)

VS.

Grant Birchall - 29 (243 games)

James Frawley - 28 (186 games)

Ben Stratton - 28 (145 games)

Josh Gibson - 33 (220 games)

Melbournes backline: 88 games total

Hawthorns backline: 794 games total

I think all of our defenders have the potential. They're athletic, have a good intensity and work rate and are all good one on one defenders. Kicking from the backline is not easy and that along with decision making will come with time. It's obvious the difference in confidence and composure when Lewis, Hibberd, Vince and Jetta have the ball compared to our younger players. We are very much still developing.

Edited May 8, 2017 by mongrel

[mrtwister 652]

26 minutes ago, drdrake said:

Garry Lyon mentioned this last week on the radio, you restrict him.  Tom you are a good player but you can only kick 50m down the or at the worse kick to someone a mile by themselves.  Never kick short to a player that has a man with in 10m of him.  The problem is we create of half back, we want to hit the corridor and with our current key defenders we have no confidence they can do this. 

A former assistant coach in the MFC program told me that TMac likes the idea of scoring chains being started by his possession which is why he sometimes attempts to kick to a harder target than the more obvious and easy target. Seems to thrive on the back patting that comes from a possession that initiates a goal.

Edited May 8, 2017 by mrtwister

[beelzebub 23,376]

5 minutes ago, mrtwister said:

A former assistant coach in the MFC program told me that TMac likes the idea of scoring chains being started by his possession which is why he sometimes attempts to kick to a harder target than the more obvious and easy target. Seems to thrive on the bat patting that comes from a possession that initiates a goal.

God help us...oh wait.... he's not 

The Macs are a worry. 

Need to find another's menu 

[Gator 17,357]

6 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Agree Gawn changes the whole set-up.

I agree and am on record that my biggest concern this year is Brayshaw - we really need another class mid and him therefore to realise his potential, we don't want another Trengove.

As you say Weed and Stretch will make it.  Kent needs to play team rules.

Joel Smith is very exciting.  If AVB can get his body right he's a big in.  I think Hannan and Wagner can both play and just need more time.  

It would be handy if Dec Kielty can come on.

Players like Harmes, Melksham, ANB, Kennedy, Bugg, Trengove can come in and play a role - with salary cap and list management you can't have 30 champs.

What a frustrating loss by a group whose arousal levels need to be at high alert all of the time, not just some of the time.  They get too comfortable too quickly.  

As you say, Brayshaw is the disappointment.  In his third year we need the class in the midfield we now expected him to be providing.  I still rate him highly, others don't, but him being the mid we hoped for and expected would make a huge difference.

Selection is just one component, but it's another element that has been a bit baffling over the last couple of weeks.  I didn't mind Weideman early days, or the retention of Melksham, but for the life of me I question Kennedy-Harris and Bugg getting games ahead of Harmes, Stretch, Kent and even what Neal-Bullen was showing in the main.  Harmes isn't perfect, but he's a big fast body who has a crack.  Give me Harmes over Bugg every day of the year.  Kent might have needed a rocket, but gee, he would have provided more than JKH.  Stretch isn't immune to playing in the VFL, but he also offers more, albeit in a different role.

That said, I won't forget the positives.  Being 4th on the 'quarters won' ladder shows we're playing some very good footy in parts, so does the frustrating stat that we've been level or ahead in the last quarter of every game.

I also like using other clubs who have taken the journey before us as a guide, such as the Dogs.  In Beveridge's first year they were 5/5 from 10.  We can still be 5/5 from 10, or 6/5 from 11.  They went on to win 14 games and play finals that year (2015) even though they lost to Brisbane in round 23.  Brisbane went into that match with 3 wins and finished second last with just 4 wins.  So even a Luke Beveridge side that was about to embark on finals lost the last game of the year to a cellar dwellar.  We know what they did 12 months later.

It's bloody frustrating, but I still believe we can win 3 of our next 4 to get back on track.  But we have to turn up to play. 

[defuture15 899]

5 hours ago, Mondê said:

We are so young, I know people are sick of hearing it but honestly our best players this year haven't even played 50 games yet. This takes time, we will become more consistent soon. Disappointing nonetheless

That is the kicker.

Most of our team have played less than a season of football and not together.

Im not worried after the last 10yrs of crap. We are on the right track. The fact that we are actually COMPETITIVE rather than just saying it. We have had a chance to win in every game. 

It was going to be a difficult task when maxy went down and it became impossible when spencer went down.

Yet we fight on! The ability is there  (mostly) the experience and maturity not yet.

 

[drdrake 3,163]

8 minutes ago, ProDee said:

As you say, Brayshaw is the disappointment.  In his third year we need the class in the midfield we now expected him to be providing.  I still rate him highly, others don't, but him being the mid we hoped for and expected would make a huge difference.

 

My concern with Brayshaw is his concussion issues, the boy can play.  Wouldn't say he is a disappointment, he can play but do you know what this is secondary to his long term health, I just hope for his sake he can work out his concussion issues

[Macca 16,970]

McEvoy wasn't generally palming or tapping the ball too far from the centre ruck circle either ... that was almost certainly a deliberate ploy by Clarkson to curtail our midfield strength.  It worked too as we just couldn't clear the ball away from the stoppages with any sort of purpose or designed plays. 

Against Essendon we had 29 clean clearances but how many did we have yesterday?  I wasn't keeping count but it would have been nowhere near that number.  Maybe a dozen but that seems a high figure.

Clarkson had the game played on his terms (in a lot of ways) but our turnovers & fumbling was a major contributing factor to the loss.  And of course, our lack of a quality ruckman.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Macca

[jnrmac 20,065]

30 minutes ago, mongrel said:

This is just a sample of the experience of our backline compared to Hawthorns. Yes they built a dynasty but they built it over TIME. I'm leaving Tommy Mac and Hibberd out but I've left Burgoyne out here too. Just look at the difference. We need to give these guys time to develop.

Oscar McDonald - 21 (22 games)

Jayden Hunt - 22 (26 games)

Josh Wagner - 22 (15 games)

Sam Frost - 23 (22 games for MFC)

VS.

Grant Birchall - 29 (243 games)

James Frawley - 28 (186 games)

Ben Stratton - 28 (145 games)

Josh Gibson - 33 (220 games)

Melbournes backline: 88 games total

Hawthorns backline: 794 games total

I think all of our defenders have the potential. They're athletic, have a good intensity and work rate and are all good one on one defenders. Kicking from the backline is not easy and that along with decision making will come with time. It's obvious the difference in confidence and composure when Lewis, Hibberd, Vince and Jetta have the ball compared to our younger players. We are very much still developing.

Did you leave Hibberd out because it will make your numbers look less compelling?

[jnrmac 20,065]

21 minutes ago, mrtwister said:

A former assistant coach in the MFC program told me that TMac likes the idea of scoring chains being started by his possession which is why he sometimes attempts to kick to a harder target than the more obvious and easy target. Seems to thrive on the back patting that comes from a possession that initiates a goal.

They do get credited with a score assist if they touch it and it results in a goal...

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

Garry Lyon is correct here. 100%

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/05/07/lyon-slams-melbournes-mental-fragility/

[dino rover 714]

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

I would play Tom up forward. He is a big unit. 

Oscar i don't think will make it. He is just not strong enough. Mind and Body. 

He cant kick goals

[Young Blood 2,620]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Did you leave Hibberd out because it will make your numbers look less compelling?

Yep exactly. But also left out Burgoyne as I said.....

Edited May 8, 2017 by mongrel

[chook fowler 19,459]

2 minutes ago, dino rover said:

He cant kick goals

Can't kick full stop

[DeeZee 7,396]

This shows why we are not a good team at the moment as a decent side exceeds expectations and doesn't consistently fall short.

The only saving grace for me is that we don't have a ruckman, so I'm cutting them some slack. When Max returns, they better go on some sort of impressive run if they are to make up for all the pain

[beelzebub 23,376]

17 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Garry Lyon is correct here. 100%

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/05/07/lyon-slams-melbournes-mental-fragility/

Nailed it. ( Sadly )

[Jaded No More 68,915]

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Watts FF Hogan CHF 

Disagree.

Watts is more of an asset when he is roaming at high half forward/wing so he can kick the ball inside the forward 50. Marking isn't his strength, so playing him at FF is useless. You might as well play Jeffy at FF for the same return.

Watts is the perfect third tall. Sadly we don't have a second tall at the moment to play a true CHF role. I think Weids will be good there once he eats 98986 burgers. 

[Willmoy1947 4,089]

Be carefull all, Max isn't the entire answer. He is a big component and a leader, but he will be singled out like other A Graders, and targeted with boots in the right places, knees groins and thighs etc.

We need to develop that more mobile ruckman to back up Max strongly all around the ground.