Training - Thursday 5th January, 2017

[McQueen 17,864]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

We've probably done this to death now (training camp), but some really interesting points have been raised.

I'm more in the negative than positive but won't disregard what others have said. I'm not happy about Tyson picking up an injury and that probably colours my view as I think he is a critical part of our team.

...but I'm also more a train football to play football kind of person.

 

Indeed.

 

 

 Close

 

 

Thread.

[faultydet 7,594]

10 hours ago, Abe said:

I think his point is that they continue to do it so rightly or wrongly they believe it works and they have premierships to back up the idea that what they are doing is working. They do almost everything extremely well and that tells me that they know what they are doing and they wouldn't do this training if they didn't feel it could be beneficial to them. 

People look at the winning teams, and think that whatever they are doing is helping them win multiple flags.

I can say with absolute confidence that if the Dees took Cale Morton/Lucas Cook/Addam Maric etc to kokoda, we would have still been a joke of a team.

If it is not in you when you start, it wont be discovered under pressure. Of any kind.

 

Lets see how the dorks do over the next decade, once Luke Hodge and co are gone. Talent is talent, and no amount of camps will prove otherwise.

[Tram 74 80]

4 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Your experience is beginning to make more sense now McQueen, like any industry where you can make money, there are good operators and charlatans, sounds like your company managed to source charlatans.

I have experienced one company that was run by an ex 'special forces' operative, he was, he managed a couple of weekends in the reserves before being elbowed, unfortunately like the personal training and education industry the oversight by 'inspectors' is poor leading to charlatans having free reign to take money before being caught out

Hopefully the club will have sourced a professional well accredited organization to provide this training

With this training there is no tangible measurement, it is to show the participants that they are capable of more than they think they are, from the snippets some have heard and what was told to me by the players it obviously achieved this, I find it noteworthy that somebody has already mentioned that nobody from the club went to sleep, I have only heard this occurring in professional soldiers previously, so the mental strengthening that Goodwin is trying to instill seems to be already working

I have missed the grand total of three training sessions since the start of the pre season, the standouts for me from previous seasons is the sheer physicality on display at every session, the camaraderie amongst the players going to another level, and the drive all show to complete each session without showing stress or tiredness despite what is thrown at them

Paragraphs 4 and 5 Saty,,,,, did someone steal your full stop button?

[Bells 155]

18 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

The 'outpost guarding' exercise described by the poster with inside info sounds identical to the one we did. After one and a half days of a variety of the most intense, repetitious and torturous exercise off the back of about 4 hours sleep max, we were given the outpost guarding exercise at about 11 pm at night. Set-up around a circular walking track, players were positioned individually about 100 metres from one another so that you were on your own to guard your area whilst one of the IDQ guys would walk around making a call which you had to respond to when he passed your area. I fell asleep twice during the exercise which went for over an hour and a half and I remember some guys were hallucinating quite seriously when stories were shared after it finished.

If it is indeed true that not one MFC player fell asleep during this exercise, I'm gobsmacked. That's amazing. 

 

This is indeed the same exercise, except they were 150 metres apart, and none of them fell asleep.  Many of them were hallucinating.  Seeing people that were not there etc.
 

 

Oh man - I hope we don't finish third last!!!!

[old demon me!!! 108]

8 hours ago, Tram 74 said:

Paragraphs 4 and 5 Saty,,,,, did someone steal your full stop button?

Really !!! who cares

[Ted Lasso 19,351]

8 hours ago, faultydet said:

People look at the winning teams, and think that whatever they are doing is helping them win multiple flags.

I can say with absolute confidence that if the Dees took Cale Morton/Lucas Cook/Addam Maric etc to kokoda, we would have still been a joke of a team.

If it is not in you when you start, it wont be discovered under pressure. Of any kind.

 

Lets see how the dorks do over the next decade, once Luke Hodge and co are gone. Talent is talent, and no amount of camps will prove otherwise.

The hawks had the bonus of recruiting well, developing the players well and clearly felt kokoda contributes to that. When a highly successful organisation does something consistently and has success on the board to back it up, who can question its value, even if it's only 1% of the reason. 

[Little Goffy 14,466]

From an anthropologist's perspective, things like the 'brutal boot camp' training or Kokoda treks fill a specific purpose other than 'finding your limits' or any physical development. And obviously It is also not something specific to football or sport.

You can go back as far as Machiavelli to find an early example of the reasoning (pardon my paraphrasing) - "Loyalty is driven more by what you owe them, than what they owe you". In his case, it was about tactically keeping yourself in at least some form debt to your allies, so they had an interest in your success to enable repayment. More modern terms might describe it as a manipulation of the 'sunk costs fallacy', where someone wont give up on an investment, a project, or a relationship because they can't face the idea that everything they've already done for it is just a waste.

So the ritual could be anything that involves experiencing personal distress, really. Mental even more than physical - any distress that can only be justified by affirming that 'I can do this thing which is otherwise awful, only because being part of the group makes it ok' Our players are completing the same ritual process as was once achieved by bathing in the blood of a freshly sacrificed goat, cutting the ear of a Spartan child, circumcision/FGM, burning a village to the ground, executing POWs, and gang-rape.

So, on that count, I would say things have progressed terrifically well. Even in football, it was only 20 years ago that 'massive [censored]-up and group s3x' was the bonding ritual of choice. So I'll take 'simulation of military stress conditions' as a clear winner at this point.

 

As a side note. This sunk-costs ritual of commitment and bonding has the potential to mask genuine unacceptable behaviour (of the types mentioned above, for example), and also massively, horribly backfire once the basis for the bond is torn up. Simply look to Essendon - the things left unchallenged because of the 'bond' to club, and the impact on many players and now most dramatically James Hird himself, once that bond is gone and they find themselves isolated and having to reevaluate all the things they did

[Clayton van Oliver 1,823]

11 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

From an anthropologist's perspective, things like the 'brutal boot camp' training or Kokoda treks fill a specific purpose other than 'finding your limits' or any physical development. And obviously It is also not something specific to football or sport.

You can go back as far as Machiavelli to find an early example of the reasoning (pardon my paraphrasing) - "Loyalty is driven more by what you owe them, than what they owe you". In his case, it was about tactically keeping yourself in at least some form debt to your allies, so they had an interest in your success to enable repayment. More modern terms might describe it as a manipulation of the 'sunk costs fallacy', where someone wont give up on an investment, a project, or a relationship because they can't face the idea that everything they've already done for it is just a waste.

So the ritual could be anything that involves experiencing personal distress, really. Mental even more than physical - any distress that can only be justified by affirming that 'I can do this thing which is otherwise awful, only because being part of the group makes it ok' Our players are completing the same ritual process as was once achieved by bathing in the blood of a freshly sacrificed goat, cutting the ear of a Spartan child, circumcision/FGM, burning a village to the ground, executing POWs, and gang-rape.

So, on that count, I would say things have progressed terrifically well. Even in football, it was only 20 years ago that 'massive [censored]-up and group s3x' was the bonding ritual of choice. So I'll take 'simulation of military stress conditions' as a clear winner at this point.

 

As a side note. This sunk-costs ritual of commitment and bonding has the potential to mask genuine unacceptable behaviour (of the types mentioned above, for example), and also massively, horribly backfire once the basis for the bond is torn up. Simply look to Essendon - the things left unchallenged because of the 'bond' to club, and the impact on many players and now most dramatically James Hird himself, once that bond is gone and they find themselves isolated and having to reevaluate all the things they did

Top post, top marks

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

1 hour ago, Little Goffy said:

From an anthropologist's perspective, things like the 'brutal boot camp' training or Kokoda treks fill a specific purpose other than 'finding your limits' or any physical development. And obviously It is also not something specific to football or sport.

You can go back as far as Machiavelli to find an early example of the reasoning (pardon my paraphrasing) - "Loyalty is driven more by what you owe them, than what they owe you". In his case, it was about tactically keeping yourself in at least some form debt to your allies, so they had an interest in your success to enable repayment. More modern terms might describe it as a manipulation of the 'sunk costs fallacy', where someone wont give up on an investment, a project, or a relationship because they can't face the idea that everything they've already done for it is just a waste.

So the ritual could be anything that involves experiencing personal distress, really. Mental even more than physical - any distress that can only be justified by affirming that 'I can do this thing which is otherwise awful, only because being part of the group makes it ok' Our players are completing the same ritual process as was once achieved by bathing in the blood of a freshly sacrificed goat, cutting the ear of a Spartan child, circumcision/FGM, burning a village to the ground, executing POWs, and gang-rape.

So, on that count, I would say things have progressed terrifically well. Even in football, it was only 20 years ago that 'massive [censored]-up and group s3x' was the bonding ritual of choice. So I'll take 'simulation of military stress conditions' as a clear winner at this point.

 

As a side note. This sunk-costs ritual of commitment and bonding has the potential to mask genuine unacceptable behaviour (of the types mentioned above, for example), and also massively, horribly backfire once the basis for the bond is torn up. Simply look to Essendon - the things left unchallenged because of the 'bond' to club, and the impact on many players and now most dramatically James Hird himself, once that bond is gone and they find themselves isolated and having to reevaluate all the things they did

Eleventy-million points awarded.

[The Chazz 4,077]

I don't know if I'm smarter or dumber for reading this thread.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Hey Saty, just wondering how much have you spoken to Jack Trengove?  I'm presuming he would be ecstatic to be having a full preseason to work on his game, rather than slowly nursing his body back to some form of good health.

[CBDees 3,167]

8 minutes ago, billy2803 said:

Hey Saty, just wondering how much have you spoken to Jack Trengove?  I'm presuming he would be ecstatic to be having a full preseason to work on his game, rather than slowly nursing his body back to some form of good health.

Be great to see Trengove back in the  MFC top 22 and hold his spot. People too quickly forget that he was considered on par with $cully, who is top 22 with GWS and less deserving as a person IMHO!

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

15 minutes ago, CBDees said:

Be great to see Trengove back in the  MFC top 22 and hold his spot. People too quickly forget that he was considered on par with $cully, who is top 22 with GWS and less deserving as a person IMHO!

Think most CBDee thought Trengove was actually ahead of Scully from about 3/4 way through their first seasons. At the time I was much happier that Scully got offered the mega deal than Jack. 

[Satyriconhome 10,736]

59 minutes ago, billy2803 said:

Hey Saty, just wondering how much have you spoken to Jack Trengove?  I'm presuming he would be ecstatic to be having a full preseason to work on his game, rather than slowly nursing his body back to some form of good health.

I chat to him quite often, ecstatic is an understatement, he feels he getting better every session he gets under his belt.

Have always checked how he was going each time I saw him in last 2 years, think he appreciated it

Last Thursday there was a play where he received a pass, turned on a sixpence and rifled a low pass down somebody's throat, can't remember who, told him I got it on camera, posted it and he liked it, said it was a great feeling to just play and not worry about his body

He knows he is on a one year contract, so has one crack at it, so will give it everything

He looks  like the player he was a few years ago, as for perceived slowness, during the repeat 200 last Thursday was again running with Trac so both must be 'slow'

[Deeoldfart 8,005]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

......

Last Thursday there was a play where he received a pass, turned on a sixpence and rifled a low pass down somebody's throat.

..........

I can vouch for that play Saty.  It was a glimpse of the Trenners of old, and  prompted my observation about his renewed agility in my training report on the day.

 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Deeoldfart

[chook fowler 19,447]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

I chat to him quite often, ecstatic is an understatement, he feels he getting better every session he gets under his belt.

Have always checked how he was going each time I saw him in last 2 years, think he appreciated it

Last Thursday there was a play where he received a pass, turned on a sixpence and rifled a low pass down somebody's throat, can't remember who, told him I got it on camera, posted it and he liked it, said it was a great feeling to just play and not worry about his body

He knows he is on a one year contract, so has one crack at it, so will give it everything

He looks  like the player he was a few years ago, as for perceived slowness, during the repeat 200 last Thursday was again running with Trac so both must be 'slow'

Great to hear. If anyone deserves success Jack does. He could be a real bonus for us this season. Very exciting.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

 during the repeat 200 last Thursday was again running with Trac so both must be 'slow'

It's not his speed over 200 that worries me.  Anyway, here's hoping.  Whilst it would be a lovely feel good story if he got back I don't know what he brings that we don't already have.  TBH I was never the wrap that everyone else was and always saw a lot more in Scully.  Hope I'm proved wrong.

[Satyriconhome 10,736]

21 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

It's not his speed over 200 that worries me.  Anyway, here's hoping.  Whilst it would be a lovely feel good story if he got back I don't know what he brings that we don't already have.  TBH I was never the wrap that everyone else was and always saw a lot more in Scully.  Hope I'm proved wrong.

What he brings is competition, you need at least 30 players teady to go at AFL every week

Alistair Clarkson and his one soldier out one soldier in

I asked Mitch Hannan about the Bulldogs last year, he said the listed players in the VFL side knew if one of the AFL side went down they had to be ready to replace so played and trained accordingly 

We are seeing this at training now the competitveness in every drill

We will have at least 15 players who will have the fitness and skills to play midfield, of course some are more skilled than others, but if they can come in and play a role that is all that is required, Trengove among others can do this

Edited January 8, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[daisycutter 29,605]

11 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

We will have at least 15 players who will have the fitness and skills to play midfield, of course some are more skilled than others, but if they can come in and play a role that is all that is required, Trengove among others can do this

re trengove, saty, no need to jump the gun, we will find out all in good time

i'm sure most mfc fans would be delighted to see jack back to best-22 form. he has a tough road ahead of him

[Satyriconhome 10,736]

18 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

re trengove, saty, no need to jump the gun, we will find out all in good time

i'm sure most mfc fans would be delighted to see jack back to best-22 form. he has a tough road ahead of him

I get your point Daisy but speaking to Goody and Macca I don't think they  have a best 22 as such

I reckon we will see the 22 that are fit and in form each week, with the emphasis on all 40+ being ready at any time to step into the team

Yes names such as Lewis Jones Viney Hogan will be picked if they are fully fit and in form each werk but I think we are finally past players getting a game when not fit or in form on name or reputation

Edited January 8, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[daisycutter 29,605]

49 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

I get your point Daisy but speaking to Goody and Macca I don't think they  have a best 22 as such

I reckon we will see the 22 that are fit and in form each week, with the emphasis on all 40+ being ready at any time to step into the team

Yes names such as Lewis Jones Viney Hogan will be picked if they are fully fit and in form each werk but I think we are finally past players getting a game when not fit or in form on name or reputation

all i meant by best 22 was senior game standard. yes depth looks much better (for a change) with lots of competition for selection spots

[Moonshadow 17,675]

7 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

From an anthropologist's perspective, things like the 'brutal boot camp' training or Kokoda treks fill a specific purpose other than 'finding your limits' or any physical development. And obviously It is also not something specific to football or sport.

You can go back as far as Machiavelli to find an early example of the reasoning (pardon my paraphrasing) - "Loyalty is driven more by what you owe them, than what they owe you". In his case, it was about tactically keeping yourself in at least some form debt to your allies, so they had an interest in your success to enable repayment. More modern terms might describe it as a manipulation of the 'sunk costs fallacy', where someone wont give up on an investment, a project, or a relationship because they can't face the idea that everything they've already done for it is just a waste.

So the ritual could be anything that involves experiencing personal distress, really. Mental even more than physical - any distress that can only be justified by affirming that 'I can do this thing which is otherwise awful, only because being part of the group makes it ok' Our players are completing the same ritual process as was once achieved by bathing in the blood of a freshly sacrificed goat, cutting the ear of a Spartan child, circumcision/FGM, burning a village to the ground, executing POWs, and gang-rape.

So, on that count, I would say things have progressed terrifically well. Even in football, it was only 20 years ago that 'massive [censored]-up and group s3x' was the bonding ritual of choice. So I'll take 'simulation of military stress conditions' as a clear winner at this point.

 

As a side note. This sunk-costs ritual of commitment and bonding has the potential to mask genuine unacceptable behaviour (of the types mentioned above, for example), and also massively, horribly backfire once the basis for the bond is torn up. Simply look to Essendon - the things left unchallenged because of the 'bond' to club, and the impact on many players and now most dramatically James Hird himself, once that bond is gone and they find themselves isolated and having to reevaluate all the things they did

Best post on this thread. Thank you.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

3 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

What he brings is competition, you need at least 30 players teady to go at AFL every week

Alistair Clarkson and his one soldier out one soldier in

I asked Mitch Hannan about the Bulldogs last year, he said the listed players in the VFL side knew if one of the AFL side went down they had to be ready to replace so played and trained accordingly 

We are seeing this at training now the competitveness in every drill

We will have at least 15 players who will have the fitness and skills to play midfield, of course some are more skilled than others, but if they can come in and play a role that is all that is required, Trengove among others can do this

Competition for spots is not created by one person but by a group of people. Trengove may be one of the group but with him or without him we have competition. 

Still think from what I've seen he is very slow by afl standards. Hope I'm wrong. 

 

Edited January 8, 2017 by Vogon Poetry

[grazman 7,409]

8 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

From an anthropologist's perspective, things like the 'brutal boot camp' training or Kokoda treks fill a specific purpose other than 'finding your limits' or any physical development. And obviously It is also not something specific to football or sport.

 

You are now my favourite poster.  Excellent post.

[McQueen 17,864]

2 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Competition for spots is not created by one person but by a group of people. Trengove may be one of the group but with him or without him we have competition. 

Still think from what I've seen he is very slow by afl standards. Hope I'm wrong. 

 

It's been discussed time and time again that speed isn't the crucial player attribute some of us think it to be.

Footy smarts is a long way in front and JT has oodles of that.

I expect him to play frequently this year.