Greater Western Sydney (a dynasty to rival the Hawks)

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,248]

I have followed the Demons since 1968. 48 years. No premierships. And TBH, none likely in the next few years.

MFC member for years.

AFL set up a brand new club. Concessions + concessions. GWS may well win the flag this year. In their fifth freakin year!! Or if not this year, within the next 2. 

Long suffering and loyal supporters of Melbourne, Footscray + St Kilda haven't seen a flag for 60 years +. (Or, depending on age, not at all.)

A manufactured team is likely to win one within 5 - 7 years of its inception/creation. Something about all this doesn't seem quite right. 

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by bingers

[Biffen 12,943]

11 hours ago, Adzman said:

Watched the game today. Gws will win 2 of the next 5 flags. I wouldn't think this year is one of them but you never know.

They are just loaded with talent, haven't seen anything quite like it. Just handcrafted by the AFL to dominate.

There is a way to even out their dominance and it involves injury,a tyre iron and new contracts for for afl mercenaries .

[Lucifers Hero 39,818]

Grudgingly, I give Sheedy much credit for drafting players with 'mongrel' not just talent.  He knew the type to win finals!  Their traded in players:  Johnson, Mumford, Shaw - all tough experienced hombres with premiership medals. So, I hate to say it but they have recruited and coached for finals. 

But like others I am appalled at GWS's draft concessions.  I'm also surprised by the willingness of other clubs to trade high draft picks for 'second string' players ie highly talented but may not have 'mongrel'.  I wonder if clubs will rue those trades when some turn out to be 'fools gold' - even with Hawthorn's system O'Rourke is mostly playing VFL and they gave their 1st and 2nd rnd pick.

To rub salt into the wound it was reported that GWS want 2017 high draft picks as they have enough for 2016!   If club's don't stop being bedazzled by GWS's apparent 'second string' riches and don't trade high draft picks for them nothing will stop the GWS juggernaut. 

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

I put this in the AFL Finals thread

All this hand wringing over GWS.

Yes they got high draft picks, but you have to develop them properly and have them working as a team, we at MFC know high draft picks is no guarantee

You have to get the right coaches

You have to get the right experienced players, Gold Coast have shown it can go wrong

You have to do real business on the trade table, they have shown they were willing to take risks, they let Hogan and Tyson go, we should be grateful for that (at the moment), and Bugg to a lesser extent, and Boyd to the Bulldogs

We [censored] up in the last 10 years all by ourselves, GWS had no part in it, and Hawthorn seem not to be affected in the last four or five by the so called bias from the AFL

Suck it up kiddies

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

1 hour ago, bingers said:

I have followed the Demons since 1968. 48 years. No premierships. And TBH, none likely in the next few years.

MFC member for years.

AFL set up a brand new club. Concessions + concessions. GWS may well win the flag this year. In their fifth freakin year!! Or if not this year, within the next 2. 

Long suffering and loyal supporters of Melbourne, Footscray + St Kilda haven't seen a flag for 60 years +. (Or, depending on age, not at all.)

A manufactured team is likely to win one within 5 - 7 years of its inception/creation. Something about all this doesn't seem quite right. 

 

THe AFL should change its name to the AFE, Australian Football Entertainment. Just like pro wrestling WWF went to WWE. Not a true sport anymore, A contrivance, manipulated to generate income for TV as top priority. That means bias to top and expansion clubs to ensure their success. IN the AFE like WWE there are 'faces', 'heels' and 'jobbers'. The faces and heels being the good and bad guys attract all the interest. The jobbers are the routine losers to pad out the fixture. In the AFL world clubs like St Kilda, North, Bulldogs and us are like jobbers. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by america de cali

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

5 minutes ago, america de cali said:

St Kilda, North, Bulldogs and us are like jobbers

and Gold Coast? they made a habit of falling dramatically to the canvas this season

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

and Gold Coast? they made a habit of falling dramatically to the canvas this season

Victims of their own incompetence. Seed sown when they sacked McKenna. The AFE will find a way to save them eventually. They were travelling very well for a while. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by america de cali

[Emerald 1,744]

17 minutes ago, america de cali said:

THe AFL should change its name to the AFE, Australian Football Entertainment. Just like pro wrestling WWF went to WWE. Not a true sport anymore, A contrivance, manipulated to generate income for TV as top priority. That means bias to top and expansion clubs to ensure their success. IN the AFE like WWE there are 'faces', 'heels' and 'jobbers'. The faces and heels being the good and bad guys attract all the interest. The jobbers are the routine losers to pad out the fixture. In the AFL world clubs like St Kilda, North, Bulldogs and us are like jobbers. 

At least we got the Undertaker's entrance with the bells.

[praha 11,240]

15 hours ago, Toorak said:

Prelim Final at spotless stadium with a capacity of 24,000. Funny thing is they'll stuggle to fill it.

 

 

No they won't. 15k Giants there yesterday, a lot of free tickets, corporates. Play either Hawks or Bulldogs, both will get a healthy contingency up there.

It's a Prelim Final. It'll sell out.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,736]

32 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

I put this in the AFL Finals thread

All this hand wringing over GWS.

Yes they got high draft picks, but you have to develop them properly and have them working as a team, we at MFC know high draft picks is no guarantee

You have to get the right coaches

You have to get the right experienced players, Gold Coast have shown it can go wrong

You have to do real business on the trade table, they have shown they were willing to take risks, they let Hogan and Tyson go, we should be grateful for that (at the moment), and Bugg to a lesser extent, and Boyd to the Bulldogs

We [censored] up in the last 10 years all by ourselves, GWS had no part in it, and Hawthorn seem not to be affected in the last four or five by the so called bias from the AFL

Suck it up kiddies

While I do agree that we've just got to suck it up and work to get better, I don't think you can compare our high picks to GWS.

They would have easily had double the number of 1st round picks we had, plus they had a ridiculous amount of money given to them by the AFL.

And if you look into the Hawks success you will see they were in the right place at the right time. They definitely did some excellent recruiting (Puopolo, Bruest, Smith all mid to late picks), however they wee hitting their straps right when the AFL completely f'd the drafts with picks for GC and GWS. This mad it extremely difficult for the sides bellow them to catch up. Further to this, the AFL also decided that brining in free agency would also be a great idea at the same time (idiots), so they didn't need picks, they could take whoever they wanted.

Ultimately this will even out and  can see GWS winning 3-4 flags and once the concessions end the club will spiral into insignificance. But unfortunately the outlook for the AFL at the moment is multiple GWS flags and a hard working team like the Dogs will likely miss out because of the AFL's greed.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

7 minutes ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

While I do agree that we've just got to suck it up and work to get better, I don't think you can compare our high picks to GWS.

They would have easily had double the number of 1st round picks we had, plus they had a ridiculous amount of money given to them by the AFL.

And if you look into the Hawks success you will see they were in the right place at the right time. They definitely did some excellent recruiting (Puopolo, Bruest, Smith all mid to late picks), however they wee hitting their straps right when the AFL completely f'd the drafts with picks for GC and GWS. This mad it extremely difficult for the sides bellow them to catch up. Further to this, the AFL also decided that brining in free agency would also be a great idea at the same time (idiots), so they didn't need picks, they could take whoever they wanted.

Ultimately this will even out and  can see GWS winning 3-4 flags and once the concessions end the club will spiral into insignificance. But unfortunately the outlook for the AFL at the moment is multiple GWS flags and a hard working team like the Dogs will likely miss out because of the AFL's greed.

My point is, yes they have had assistance, but they also worked to get everything right, it shows what can be done from rock bottom to the top in 5 years if everybody is on the same page and you get everything right.

We are now three years into the same type of trajectory, Sheedy/Roos has gone, new coach schooled properly, a recruiting and development department that has hardly had a fail in the last couple of years.

We are looking at being active in the trade period again, we have already taken the risk with the first round pick this year

The thrashings have stopped, we have young players playing with confidence, we have sorted out the experience we don't and do need etc etc

Let's talk optimistically about us instead of whingeing about something that has already happened

Edited September 10, 2016 by Satyriconhome

[bush demon 2,041]

2 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

My point is, yes they have had assistance, but they also worked to get everything right, it shows what can be done from rock bottom to the top in 5 years if everybody is on the same page and you get everything right.

We are now three years into the same type of trajectory, Sheedy/Roos has gone, new coach schooled properly, a recruiting and development department that has hardly had a fail in the last couple of years.

We are looking at being active in the trade period again, we have already taken the risk with the first round pick this year

The thrashings have stopped, we have young players playing with confidence, we have sorted out the experience we don't and do need etc etc

Let's talk optimistically about us instead of whingeing about something that has already happened

Whilst 'worked to get it right' is a meaningless footy cliche i am rapt that rugby is taking a hit, and it is great to see mass crowds at ANZ stadium following the national game. Meanwhile Melbourne are in a dog fight with about six other vic. Clubs who are also working to get it right, unfortunately most of them won't.

[grazman 7,436]

2 hours ago, bingers said:

I have followed the Demons since 1968. 48 years. No premierships. And TBH, none likely in the next few years.

MFC member for years.

AFL set up a brand new club. Concessions + concessions. GWS may well win the flag this year. In their fifth freakin year!! Or if not this year, within the next 2. 

Long suffering and loyal supporters of Melbourne, Footscray + St Kilda haven't seen a flag for 60 years +. (Or, depending on age, not at all.)

A manufactured team is likely to win one within 5 - 7 years of its inception/creation. Something about all this doesn't seem quite right. 

 

I think you're conflating two issues here Bingers.

Firstly the reason we haven't won a premiership since 64 is our own incompetence.  And its a well sung song of recent times.

Secondly the concessions you talk about are symptomatic of the market forces that drive the AFL.  They need GWS to gain ground quickly.    Indirectly that helps clubs like us and North and the Bulldogs etc actually survive rather than die or be relocated. 

Personally I'm sick of having to listen to insufferable Hawthorn, Geelong and Sydney supporters crap on as though they're God's chosen children while I'm satisfied every second weekend that my team doesn't suck as much as they did three years ago.   At least GWS don't have any supporters and those they do actually barrack for other teams anyway.  Fortunately the AFL seems to be intent on revising the GWS 'Academy'  (everything South of Wagga should be considered as part of Victoria in football terms)

[Dante 2,739]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

I put this in the AFL Finals thread

All this hand wringing over GWS.

Yes they got high draft picks, but you have to develop them properly and have them working as a team, we at MFC know high draft picks is no guarantee

You have to get the right coaches

You have to get the right experienced players, Gold Coast have shown it can go wrong

You have to do real business on the trade table, they have shown they were willing to take risks, they let Hogan and Tyson go, we should be grateful for that (at the moment), and Bugg to a lesser extent, and Boyd to the Bulldogs

We [censored] up in the last 10 years all by ourselves, GWS had no part in it, and Hawthorn seem not to be affected in the last four or five by the so called bias from the AFL

Suck it up kiddies

They didn't just get high draft picks they got a plethora of them. We have had a history of failure and we had to rid our club of that baggage, they had and have no history so there was a fresh slate and no hang ups, no money problems, more players than any other club, the arrogance of having so much talent around them.

They could afford to throw some scraps away like Tyson, Frost and Bugg and the half dozen they traded to Carlton, because none of them were better than the players they kept. They didn't throw away Hogan they couldn't have kept him because he was part of the mini draft and even though he wasn't their player we had to give him a top 5 pick to get him, how outrageous is that.

Sure we effed up our selections over the previous 10 years, but do you think we may have done better if we had the number of picks GWS had and the money they were given?

It's like the Government giving (and I mean giving) a start up grant to a business of $100m and when others complain telling them to suck it up kiddies, are you serious?

You do understand that clubs have ups and downs and Hawthorn have been on the up and were well before GWS were formed, let's see what happens to them and other traditional clubs as both GWS and GC start to dominate. We get a top ten pick and salivate, they have 3 or 4 every year, now that's fair isn't it.

[Diamond_Jim 12,589]

Just following up on Dante's post.

With the mini draft GWS had four top picks of 17 year olds which they were required to trade for players/picks from other clubs. All were traded for picks.

So while some say we got Hogan from this process .... yes we did but equally GWS got yet another top ten pick. So GWS continued to benefit.

The reality is that those who designed the system did not envisage how it could be manipulated to form the "monolith" it is increasingly becoming.

Let's say Shaw retires.... all GWS have to do is look at the top five or so teams and say here is a high first round draft pick for a 28-29 year old player. Which one of your top five would say no. Same goes even more for the lower ranked clubs who are looking to "rebuild".

[old55 23,589]

16 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The MFC have to be so shrewd now with recruiting like last year. 

We will have to do every year. High risk High reward

Hope I never see a post from you criticising the Dawes and Lumumba recruitment then.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Fifty-5

[Dante 2,739]

10 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Just following up on Dante's post.

With the mini draft GWS had four top picks of 17 year olds which they were required to trade for players/picks from other clubs. All were traded for picks.

So while some say we got Hogan from this process .... yes we did but equally GWS got yet another top ten pick. So GWS continued to benefit.

The reality is that those who designed the system did not envisage how it could be manipulated to form the "monolith" it is increasingly becoming.

Let's say Shaw retires.... all GWS have to do is look at the top five or so teams and say here is a high first round draft pick for a 28-29 year old player. Which one of your top five would say no. Same goes even more for the lower ranked clubs who are looking to "rebuild".

Plus they were able to rape and pillage clubs picking any player they wanted from any club they chose.

 

[old55 23,589]

On the phone to my broker buying Kleenex shares now.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

The hand wringing concerns me because, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn, West Coast, Adelaide who are still consistently playing finals all saw the Gold Coast/GWS expansion was going to happen and did something about it.......we didn't....we are now trying to

39 minutes ago, Dante said:

They could afford to throw some scraps away like Tyson, Frost

Tyson is getting better and better and so is Frost, I don't regard them as scraps

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

27 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Hope I never see a post from you criticising the Dawes and Lumumba recruitment then.

What's that got to do with next year?

Both of those players were good choices at the time. 

[old55 23,589]

Just now, Sir Why You Little said:

What's that got to do with next year?

Both of those players were good choices at the time. 

Agree they did look like good choices at the time, but many here with the benefit of hindsight are very critical of those trades.  As you say, nothing ventured ...

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

26 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Agree they did look like good choices at the time, but many here with the benefit of hindsight are very critical of those trades.  As you say, nothing ventured ...

It's a brutal sport. Nobody can factor injuries unless there is a specific history

H's goal against GW$ was a classic

Edited September 11, 2016 by Sir Why You Little

[Dante 2,739]

11 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The hand wringing concerns me because, Geelong, Sydney, Hawthorn, West Coast, Adelaide who are still consistently playing finals all saw the Gold Coast/GWS expansion was going to happen and did something about it.......we didn't....we are now trying to

Tyson is getting better and better and so is Frost, I don't regard them as scraps

To GWS they were because they had so many more that were better and can afford to give us surplus stock. Just as we have players we talk about as being unable to break in to the midfield because they are behind so many others, ANB is a classic example, do you think we'd trade Oliver or Viney?

Difference is they have so many just below the best as well as having so many that are in their best, we take the scraps and they pick up more top draft picks, we don't have a choice and they take advantage. GC have had a dreadful run with injuries, just wait until they have a full side to field, wait until they offload Prestia and O'Meara who are, imo never going to be as good as they were and replace them with a few more talented top end kids.

[Macca 16,972]

There are many sides to this story ... 

GWS have been handed a great chance to fast-track their way to success but that 'great chance' required a reasonable dose of luck (in the draft) but also required excellent management from the get-go.  They also needed to trade & recruit well outside of the draft and that's where they've come up trumps.  The more chances a team has with high end draft picks, the greater the chance for success. 

GWS missed on a number of 1st round draft picks but we don't get to read or hear about that because of the success of the rest of their picks ... as for the rest of it, they've played the system extremely well and much much better than many of us thought. 

Like any start-up operation, those pushing the new team were going to want it to work as soon as possible - and that's what has happened.  We shouldn't be surprised with the outcome as the pathway to that outcome was set up from day 1.  We can complain all we like but it is what is is and they're only going to get stronger (unless they lose their way)  We may not like it but from a practical viewpoint, we have to accept it.

And it's not just our club that will almost certainly lag behind them, the same argument goes for many of the clubs.  GWS have been given a great opportunity and so far, they're making the most of it.  I originally thought that the smaller clubs in Melbourne would struggle to cope as a consequence but its interesting that the traditional big 4 clubs in Melbourne are all a good ways off a premiership window (right now) 

North & the Doggies are playing finals, the Saints are on an upward curve and so are we.  Contrast that with Carlton,  Essendon, the Tigers & Pies.  The Cats & Hawks are maintaining a high ladder position and have done so with astute trading and also with the help of free agency.

So, how do we catch up to a (possible) juggernaut like GWS?  Astute trading & free agency ... and we'll need to have a better than reasonable strike rate with drafting - easier said than done of course but Taylor does seem to have a good eye for talent.  So it's do-able.

We also need to push for an academy to match those in the Northern states.  We might see a combined push from a number of clubs in that area in order for that to happen.

 

[old55 23,589]

60k at an AFL final in Sydney is a great result. We need strong AFL in NSW and Qld for the game to prosper.  It's really hard to get the policy decisions exactly right for expansion teams, the Brisbane Bears setting were way too low and their introduction was a failure, the AFL possibly swung too far in response for GC and GWS but that was always a risk.