Tom McDonald (and Oscar) SIGNS.

[Demons11 6,704]

37 minutes ago, Abe said:

While i think he will stay, if he was to take off to the Swans, what sort of deal would we accept in return?

assuming we don't get Hurley.

I don't think the Swans first round pick is enough for a young key position player who's going to be around the mark of All Australian for the next decade, i'd be hoping for that pick and something else. 

maybe the first rounder and Dean Towers who looked good the last few weeks but struggles to get regular games, is a very good young player.

and then as a replacement i think a New enviorment might really do some good for Nathan Brown from the Pies who has fallen off the cliff as a player and is said to feel the program over there isn't for him.

If we get Towers I will tear up my membership.  He is horrible and scared.  Did you not see him [censored] himself in the last qtr on the weekend 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

16 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Who is available that will be an upgrade on what we currently have?  If we take Hurley out of the equation for a moment, as there are plenty of variables there, who can we realistically land that will improve us in the short or long term?  Key defenders with talent don't just grow on trees or fall out of the sky into our laps.

Edit - I'm not disagreeing that we couldn't use an upgrade in the back half, but I just don't see much out there for us.  Hibberd would be terrific but he isn't a key backman.

It's strange to me that you don't see Nathan Brown or Eric Mackenzie as players who would not only immediately boost our defence, but also provide relief for Tom McDonald and allow his brother Oscar to develop in the VFL like he should be right at this very moment.

Both would be immediate upgrades to Frost and Oscar in our starting 22. There is absolutely no argument there.

You talk about 'upgrades' as though we need to target an A-grader in Hurley or we  leave the defence as is.

It's an extremely short-sighted perspective and shows a complete lack of understanding of how lists are built. 

How do you think we've built up our midfield over the last few years?

I'll say it again. There are key defenders out there aside from Hurley who would help us in ways that you clearly can't see.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,282]

Heard from a Swans member Tom for Tom...no idea of his source though.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,748]

I can' t understand why any Demon supporter would contemplate letting Tom McDonald go.

In my opinion he is right up there with the best tall defenders in the Comp., and is improving each year.Sure, he makes errors. But  as he gains experience we're benefitting from his attacking play more and more.

Meanwhile, we have his younger brother who is taller, and more skilled, who looks like developing into a top key position player.

We should move heaven and earth to keep these  two!

[mo64 5,480]

3 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

I can' t understand why any Demon supporter would contemplate letting Tom McDonald go.

In my opinion he is right up there with the best tall defenders in the Comp., and is improving each year.Sure, he makes errors. But  as he gains experience we're benefitting from his attacking play more and more.

Meanwhile, we have his younger brother who is taller, and more skilled, who looks like developing into a top key position player.

We should move heaven and earth to keep these  two!

I agree with your 1st statement, as I don't want to see T Mac go.  But since the middle of last season, I think he's been a disappointment, and hasn't developed his football smarts at all.  I could name 10 tall defenders that have had better seasons than T. Mac.

And to say his younger brother is more skilled is not very complimentary.

[dazzledavey36 52,728]

I can't stand Tom and everyone knows that. But losing him would be a massive blow.

What Tom really needs is another big bodied defender to take the load off him whether thats Hurley, Nathan Brown or as already mentioned Eric McKenzie. I just feel Tom thinks he needs to be the general of the backline and do everything at million miles an hour instead of just keeping it simple. Jared Rivers was the best example of this.

Say what you want about him but we really are missing James Frawley right at this point.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,748]

James Frawley would surrender one or two goals a week with unforced turnovers.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to happen now he's playing for a more experienced side. That could be the moral of this thread.

[Red and Blue Flame 150]

26 minutes ago, Hell Bent said:

Heard from a Swans member Tom for Tom...no idea of his source though.

Tom Mitchell? Despite my dislike for Tom Mc, but acceptance that he just needs another defender around him, i would not be opposed to getting a young gun like Tom Mitchell.

And before anyone hoses me down saying we have enough mids - you can never have enough mids (HF and HB are called 5th and 6ths these days - they are just as much mids as those in centre bounce or 'inner circle' at a stoppage).

[picket fence 16,648]

14 hours ago, waynewussell said:

I was at the game on Sunday and I have now watched the whole replay... Tom McDonald was very good for most of the game. Even in the final quarter (we were closer to Adelaide than I had thought watching the game live) McDonald was resolute and turned their forward thrusts on a number of occasions. Bloody sure that he is a level above any other tall defenders we have, and he will be a hot-property around the comp if he doesn't sign with us.

To borrow from my peer ologist , Did you note these FACTS down Wayne??

The problem is that his skill errors kill us. I watched him carefully yesterday and tonight on the replay. He'll do some good stuff and then completely stuff it up.

Q1

Dawes does a great tackle , kicks back to TMac and he fumbles the ball. T/over to Crows

TMac takes great mark from a kick in and then kicks into man on the mark

Q2

TMac does a blatant throw on members wing when we are running fwd T/over

TMac gets the ball with an open fwd line and kicks into man in the mark

Q3 

When we lost the game, TMac takes a great intercept mark , turns the ball over goal results

I have stopped watching and will resume but this game was not isolated. As I said, He has some great attributes but he has to clean up his brain farts and turnovers. Turnovers and poor composure cost us the game yesterday. We can't go anywhere with payers that continually do that. 

Not only did Walker beat him , but he also cost 3 or so goals with his turnovers! Do the Math 3 direct goals + His turnovers resulting in goals that's about 5 Goals but yeah he was very good! Yeah Right!

Edited July 5, 2016 by picket fence

[Undeeterred 3,043]

On 7/4/2016 at 8:35 AM, Viscount Cardwell said:

You obviously did not watch the game 

I'd question whether you did.

He absolutely did his job.

[Undeeterred 3,043]

On 7/4/2016 at 11:33 AM, Fifty-5 said:

Tom mis-kicks a few times a match and because of where he plays it's looks and is costly.  But he sets up a lot of creative play too which gets overlooked by many here.  It's not decision making errors it's execution errors which he can continue to work on.  He's a terrific player and his intercept marking is great.

It's pure confirmation bias.

Nobody notices the absolutely brilliant things he does, or his reasonably frequent excellent kicks that get a player out on the run, or his consistently excellent marking and spoiling.

But as soon as he makes an error, every peanut in the crowd sees only that.

[Undeeterred 3,043]

On 7/4/2016 at 1:16 PM, jnrmac said:

At least 3 and often 4 goals result. He will never be a key player unless he can get rid of that. He has brain fades and when he tries to switch play it's heart in mouth stuff.

No. He is a key player, whether you like it or not. Right now.

[Undeeterred 3,043]

15 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Its not an exaggeration. And I doubt he is instructed to do what he is doing, He would be instructed to look inboard and look for the switch when safe to so, The problem is that his skill errors kill us. I watched him carefully yesterday and tonight on the replay. He'll do some good stuff and then completely stuff it up.

Q1

Dawes does a great tackle , kicks back to TMac and he fumbles the ball. T/over to Crows

TMac takes great mark from a kick in and then kicks into man on the mark

Q2

TMac does a blatant throw on members wing when we are running fwd T/over

TMac gets the ball with an open fwd line and kicks into man in the mark

Q3 

When we lost the game, TMac takes a great intercept mark , turns the ball over goal results

I have stopped watching and will resume but this game was not isolated. As I said, He has some great attributes but he has to clean up his brain farts and turnovers. Turnovers and poor composure cost us the game yesterday. We can't go anywhere with payers that continually do that. 

Do the same analysis with Nathan Jones. I bet you can find at least that many moments he stuffed up during the game.

Do you hate T-Mac so much that you'll sit through an entire replay watching out for his mistakes?

[jnrmac 19,890]

2 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

Do the same analysis with Nathan Jones. I bet you can find at least that many moments he stuffed up during the game.

Do you hate T-Mac so much that you'll sit through an entire replay watching out for his mistakes?

No I don't. Really you are being petulant with that comment. I looked for everyone's mistakes and their good plays. Its pretty easy with Tom. And many of TMacs errors are under no pressure. he takes the wrong option or fluffs his kicks. On Sunday he kicked twice into the man on the mark. You learn not to do that in the U12s. 

Do you love TMac so much you ignore his obvious flaws?

As for Jones he has 3 B&Fs. I think his record speaks for itself. And nearly all of his possessions are under extreme pressure. If you really believe the comparisons between Jones and TMac are relevant you probably need to study the game more and learn about the different roles.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

4 hours ago, Undeeterred said:

It's pure confirmation bias.

Nobody notices the absolutely brilliant things he does, or his reasonably frequent excellent kicks that get a player out on the run, or his consistently excellent marking and spoiling.

But as soon as he makes an error, every peanut in the crowd sees only that.

I'm sorry but these posts are just complete tripe.

More often than not, the reason that players like T-Mac are berated by supporters so much is because they possess bad habits which are on display regularly.

Supporters can tolerate certain players turning the ball over every now and again as Jones did on the weekend. Why do you think that is?

Because 90% of the time, they're consistently good in their skill level, decision making and impact of the contest.

Nobody can agree that T-Mac is consistently good in all facets of the game. He is not like Jones, consistently good in all facets of the game 90% of the time. 

In fact when it comes to disposing of the ball and decision making with ball in hand, he is a complete flip of the coin.

How is it that you're in utter confusion as to why supporters pull their hair out when witnessing these kinds of errors?

It's not that [censored] hard man. 

Tom McDonald tries his heart out and is super important to us at present because funnily enough, he is the most consistent out of all our KPB. Even if it's in only a couple of areas.

But that is far more of a worry than anything else and says an awful lot about the state of our defence. We're lucky that we can address this. And we will.

Tom McDonald would be a far better player with players who performed consistently well around him. Which is why we need two players who can take up the roles that Garland and Dunn have failed at taking up. However, he also needs to fix up a hugely problematic area of his game. Disposal and decision making.

[picket fence 16,648]

Laurie Fowler used to get the ball a lot.. Boot it .. turn it over and watch as goals were kicked as result of this! Before the fashionable word called "Turnovers" Existed! He also won a dees B&F or Two!!

Point is you just cannot afford to have turnover merchants in succesful Premiership sides as KEY DEFENSIVE DEFENDER! ! PERIOD! 

TMac still makes th same elementary mistakes he did when he fisrt started! He hasn't improved on this one Iota!

I'm calling it , We will not be a premiership side with T Mac in Key Defensive post! Put him at CHF however  annnnd But waaaiiiiitt surely not!???

Edited July 5, 2016 by picket fence

[Adam The God 29,331]

15 hours ago, Hell Bent said:

Heard from a Swans member Tom for Tom...no idea of his source though.

Every day of the week.

[Undeeterred 3,043]

13 hours ago, jnrmac said:

No I don't. Really you are being petulant with that comment. I looked for everyone's mistakes and their good plays. Its pretty easy with Tom. And many of TMacs errors are under no pressure. he takes the wrong option or fluffs his kicks. On Sunday he kicked twice into the man on the mark. You learn not to do that in the U12s. 

Do you love TMac so much you ignore his obvious flaws?

As for Jones he has 3 B&Fs. I think his record speaks for itself. And nearly all of his possessions are under extreme pressure. If you really believe the comparisons between Jones and TMac are relevant you probably need to study the game more and learn about the different roles.

I agree - he makes mistakes. I also agree that his mistakes are frustrating, because a lot of the time they are really basic errors, and so stand out more.

And I'm not comparing Jones and McDonald - you must be able to see that. My point is that all players make mistakes it's one sided to just point out their errors (frustrating though they can be).

Equally, you can't ignore all the really excellent things McDonald does when making an assessment of how important he is for us.

[Undeeterred 3,043]

10 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I'm sorry but these posts are just complete tripe.

More often than not, the reason that players like T-Mac are berated by supporters so much is because they possess bad habits which are on display regularly.

Supporters can tolerate certain players turning the ball over every now and again as Jones did on the weekend. Why do you think that is?

Because 90% of the time, they're consistently good in their skill level, decision making and impact of the contest.

Nobody can agree that T-Mac is consistently good in all facets of the game. He is not like Jones, consistently good in all facets of the game 90% of the time. 

In fact when it comes to disposing of the ball and decision making with ball in hand, he is a complete flip of the coin.

How is it that you're in utter confusion as to why supporters pull their hair out when witnessing these kinds of errors?

It's not that [censored] hard man. 

Tom McDonald tries his heart out and is super important to us at present because funnily enough, he is the most consistent out of all our KPB. Even if it's in only a couple of areas.

But that is far more of a worry than anything else and says an awful lot about the state of our defence. We're lucky that we can address this. And we will.

Tom McDonald would be a far better player with players who performed consistently well around him. Which is why we need two players who can take up the roles that Garland and Dunn have failed at taking up. However, he also needs to fix up a hugely problematic area of his game. Disposal and decision making.

No confusion here mate.

I get why he is frustrating.

But I hate when people just focus on that and ignore all the good things.

And yes, there may well be players brought in to help him out, who aren't as frustrating.. 

[Gorgoroth 12,701]

Tmacs making is mostly elite and his spoiling is decent.  

His inability to kick the ball higher than 5-10 Meyers means he quite often kicks into the man on the mark or it doesn't clear the player trying to cut or off.

He has of late stopped being caught unawares with ball in hand. 

Half the problem is this is a regular occurrence, the other half is they usually lead to goals against. 

Jon Ralph  think it was, said a while ago on twitter if he could kick he would be worth 700k+ or similar. 

[binman 41,944]

There is no way id trade tmac for mitchell and unless tmac wants out there is no way the dees wouls do that deal.

Of course you  need many good mids but we have at least 5 and can target a top 10 mid in the next draft. At present we have 1 good big who can play on say a tex. Tmac. If we got hurley that's two.

If we draft a key back we wait 2-3 years and omac will take that same time to bulk up enough to take the opposition monsters.

Of course he is frustrating wirh his disposal, though on that it is clear tge direction from roos is to attack and play on. But we are simply not inna position to lose another 100 game decent kpd

[binman 41,944]

The only caveat i would put on the above comments re dees not trading him is it assumes he doesn't ask for too much moolah

[whatwhat say what 22,092]

one thing i think that is worth pointing out is that all the brickbats that t mac cops is very, very similar to that which beset rance at about the same stage of development.

 

rance is now clearly the premier tall defender in the competition.

 

when t mac is up and going, he's the equal of rance imo.

 

i would not want to lose him without the equivalent coming back in. we are already light on for genuine key defenders - arguably t mac and dunn are our only truly physically strong and imposing tall defenders, and the latter is clearly out of favour - and if we lost t mac our defence would be under even more pressure than it is now. 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,039]

19 hours ago, picket fence said:

To borrow from my peer ologist , Did you note these FACTS down Wayne??

The problem is that his skill errors kill us. I watched him carefully yesterday and tonight on the replay. He'll do some good stuff and then completely stuff it up.

Q1

Dawes does a great tackle , kicks back to TMac and he fumbles the ball. T/over to Crows

TMac takes great mark from a kick in and then kicks into man on the mark

Q2

TMac does a blatant throw on members wing when we are running fwd T/over

TMac gets the ball with an open fwd line and kicks into man in the mark

Q3 

When we lost the game, TMac takes a great intercept mark , turns the ball over goal results

I have stopped watching and will resume but this game was not isolated. As I said, He has some great attributes but he has to clean up his brain farts and turnovers. Turnovers and poor composure cost us the game yesterday. We can't go anywhere with payers that continually do that. 

Not only did Walker beat him , but he also cost 3 or so goals with his turnovers! Do the Math 3 direct goals + His turnovers resulting in goals that's about 5 Goals but yeah he was very good! Yeah Right!

You are kidding right??? Dawes uncontested 20m grubber kick and you have the audacity to suggest Tom was in any way responsible for that turnover?? that is enough to show you have no understanding of football

Blatant throw? yes, but will one arm held and no great skill he was alway going to get pinned holding the ball. Tracc had the same thing happen to him later in the game he kicked it and turned it over as well, where is his crucifiction?

As Undeeterred said this is nothing more than confirmation bias. Go back through the game and start counting the number of spoils/marks/pressure acts he made to stop an adelaide score and suddenly he will look more valuable. 

Assuming for 5 seconds that your ludicrously flawed logic is correct and he did cause 5 goals i can guarantee that you can find more times he prevented a score and given adelaide's high accuracy odds on most of them would have been goals

Im not saying you dont have the right to be frustrated by his mistakes we all are. But if you had half the understanding of football as the rest of us you would know that right now even with all his mistakes he still prevents more scores than he causes. We need more! but Tom does far more than you give him credit for.

[mo64 5,480]

1 hour ago, Gorgoroth said:

Tmacs making is mostly elite and his spoiling is decent.  

His inability to kick the ball higher than 5-10 Meyers means he quite often kicks into the man on the mark or it doesn't clear the player trying to cut or off.

He has of late stopped being caught unawares with ball in hand. 

Half the problem is this is a regular occurrence, the other half is they usually lead to goals against. 

Jon Ralph  think it was, said a while ago on twitter if he could kick he would be worth 700k+ or similar. 

Due to insomnia, I watched replays of of a couple of our wins last night. The thing I noticed about T Mac's kicking is that he can only kick the ball in the direction he's facing, and it takes him ages to get boot to ball. In one instance, he was facing the boundary line at an 80 degree angle, and kicked it straight out on the full. He can't curve the ball with his kicks, hence it's easy to smother.

On other occasions, he made horrible decisions with ball in hand. Anyone who puts him in the elite category for KPFs are kidding themselves. His role needs to be simplified. Play as a stay at home key backman, and don't provide yourself as an option for uncontested kicks or handball received.