WELCOME TO THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB - CLAYTON OLIVER

[picket fence 15,304]

9 minutes ago, ProDee said:

If he's only half as good as Jones I'll be devastated.

If he's as good as Jones I'll be disappointed.

I fully expect Oliver to be a better player than Jones.  We need him to be a better player than Jones.

Hnmm Ok, Can see where your coming from and in retrospect maybe correct re Half as good would be a fail! I retract this comment.

However chunky would get a game in most if not any other team and so as a benchmark if Oliver is as good I'll take it! Better is obviously a huge bonus!

But remember Oliver has been selected as our "Late lament" version of Ollie Wines and we all know how well the guy we selected went! 

So as stated as good as Jones is good and if  Better, will be a huge bonus IMV.

Edited January 24, 2016 by picket fence

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

23 minutes ago, ProDee said:

If he's only half as good as Jones I'll be devastated.

If he's as good as Jones I'll be disappointed.

I fully expect Oliver to be a better player than Jones.  We need him to be a better player than Jones.

Tend to agree

Jones is good, but the fact he has been our best player the last few years reflects our ladder position. If we ever want to get near a flag we need Oliver/Tyson/Viney/Petracca/Brayshaw/Salem to really get to that elite status in our midfield. It's a very good group to work with.

[Gator 16,893]

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Hnmm Ok, Can see where your coming from and in retrospect maybe correct re Half as good would be a fail! I retract this comment.

However chunky would get a game in most if not any other team and so as a benchmark if Oliver is as good I'll take it! Better is obviously a huge bonus!

But remember Oliver has been selected as our "Late lament" version of Ollie Wines and we all know how well the guy we selected went! 

So as stated as good as Jones is good and if  Better, will be a huge bonus IMV.

A flag is all I care about.  To win a flag you need "stars".  Jones isn't and never will be a star.

If we're to win a flag we need players like Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Salem and Petracca to become stars.  Clearly not all will and maybe none will, but if you want to see a flag you'll need 2 or 3 to become elites of the competition and certainly better than Jones.  That's not a knock on Jones it's just reality.

Hogan will be a star and if Weideman can reach 60+ goals then the makings will be there to get a chance at a flag if 2 or 3 of the above reach the required level.

Why do I have a sixth sense Stu's head will bob up with some inanity ? 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

2 minutes ago, ProDee said:

A flag is all I care about.  To win a flag you need "stars".  Jones isn't and never will be a star.

If we're to win a flag we need players like Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Salem and Petracca to become stars.  Clearly not all will and maybe none will, but if you want to see a flag you'll need 2 or 3 to become elites of the competition and certainly better than Jones.  That's not a knock on Jones it's just reality.

Hogan will be a star and if Weideman can reach 60+ goals then the makings will be there to get a chance at a flag if 2 or 3 of the above reach the required level.

Why do I have a sixth sense Stu's head will bob up with some inanity ? 

Agree with all of that.

And you're right - it's not a knock on Jones, but more about the fact that we need the kids to surpass him over the next few years and push us to the next level.  Jones has been a warrior for us, but you wouldn't class him as an A grader with some of the other elite mids who are on that level.  We've got the players who can get there though, and thankfully a guy like Jones is an excellent role model due to his terrific work ethic and willingness to improve.

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

8 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Agree with all of that.

And you're right - it's not a knock on Jones, but more about the fact that we need the kids to surpass him over the next few years and push us to the next level.  Jones has been a warrior for us, but you wouldn't class him as an A grader with some of the other elite mids who are on that level.  We've got the players who can get there though, and thankfully a guy like Jones is an excellent role model due to his terrific work ethic and willingness to improve.

So what you are saying is that if 5 or 6 of our next level players actually improve out of sight during the pre season and the NAB challenge you wouldn't mind if Jones wasn't a lock for the first round?

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, Satyriconhome said:

So what you are saying is that if 5 or 6 of our next level players actually improve out of sight during the pre season and the NAB challenge you wouldn't mind if Jones wasn't a lock for the first round?

Even if 6 midfielders somehow improved unbelievably out of sight over the next month or two, Jones is still a lock for the Round 1 side.

He is our captain for a reason.

 

[ignition. 1,413]

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

If he's only half as good as Jones I'll be devastated.

If he's as good as Jones I'll be disappointed.

I fully expect Oliver to be a better player than Jones.  We need him to be a better player than Jones.

 

35 minutes ago, ProDee said:

A flag is all I care about.  To win a flag you need "stars".  Jones isn't and never will be a star.

If we're to win a flag we need players like Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Salem and Petracca to become stars.  Clearly not all will and maybe none will, but if you want to see a flag you'll need 2 or 3 to become elites of the competition and certainly better than Jones.  That's not a knock on Jones it's just reality.

Hogan will be a star and if Weideman can reach 60+ goals then the makings will be there to get a chance at a flag if 2 or 3 of the above reach the required level.

Why do I have a sixth sense Stu's head will bob up with some inanity ? 

 

Sorry ProDee but you're completely delusional, or you haven't watch the Dees play in the last 4 years.

Jones has been bloody good in a very poor side.

If you had taken him back then and placed him in the Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydeny, heck even Collingwood line up you and everyone would be calling him a "star".

So please spare us the rubbish.

[dazzledavey36 48,929]

6 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

So what you are saying is that if 5 or 6 of our next level players actually improve out of sight during the pre season and the NAB challenge you wouldn't mind if Jones wasn't a lock for the first round?

He didn't say that all Saty.. i dont speak for him but i agree that at the moment we are still all too reliant on Nathan Jones as our go to man and someone who is just going to win us games. We are NOT going to be playing finals if that is still the case. For us to become a good finals team we need the likes of Viney Brayshaw Tyson and Salem over the next few 'years' to really step up to the point where they are getting hard tags instead of Jones.

Remember Shane Crawford? For some many years he was always their number 1 midfielder during those first couple of years of Clarkson era. He was the inspirational skipper that was always getting the number 1 tag and Towards the end of his career in fact 2008, Hawthorn had a good spread of up and coming A graders in Mitchell Hodge Lewis that they were able to take more control of the midfield leaving Crawford to play more on a half forward and rotating off the bench and still able to make a contribution. This is the dream scenario for me in 3 years time when we are playing finals that Tyson Viney Brayshaw Oliver Salem and Petracca will be all borderline A graders and starting on ball line up that they are able to push Jones out to playing more up forward rotating off the bench and still having an influence exactly like Crawford did.

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

7 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

He didn't say that all Saty.. i dont speak for him but i agree that at the moment we are still all too reliant on Nathan Jones as our go to man and someone who is just going to win us games. We are NOT going to be playing finals if that is still the case. For us to become a good finals team we need the likes of Viney Brayshaw Tyson and Salem over the next few 'years' to really step up to the point where they are getting hard tags instead of Jones.

Remember Shane Crawford? For some many years he was always their number 1 midfielder during those first couple of years of Clarkson era. He was the inspirational skipper that was always getting the number 1 tag and Towards the end of his career in fact 2008, Hawthorn had a good spread of up and coming A graders in Mitchell Hodge Lewis that they were able to take more control of the midfield leaving Crawford to play more on a half forward and rotating off the bench and still able to make a contribution. This is the dream scenario for me in 3 years time when we are playing finals that Tyson Viney Brayshaw Oliver Salem and Petracca will be all borderline A graders and starting on ball line up that they are able to push Jones out to playing more up forward rotating off the bench and still having an influence exactly like Crawford did.

I think you will find that if last year is anything to go by, Jones or Vince will be sent to the opposition gun midfielder rather than the other way around, with Viney getting the job now and gain dependent on the opponent, hence the need for Jones to build his running up to another level

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,941]

14 minutes ago, ignition. said:

 

 

Sorry ProDee but you're completely delusional, or you haven't watch the Dees play in the last 4 years.

Jones has been bloody good in a very poor side.

If you had taken him back then and placed him in the Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydeny, heck even Collingwood line up you and everyone would be calling him a "star".

So please spare us the rubbish.

Jones game went to a new level two years ago under Roos/Stone. His disposal and awareness improved, he started to think his way through situations and take the better option rather than barge his way 2-3 tacklers. As good as he is and as much as we love him he's not in the same  class as Hodge/Bartell/Pendles etc.

[Redleg 37,809]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

A flag is all I care about.  To win a flag you need "stars".  Jones isn't and never will be a star.

 

I get what you mean. He clearly has "starred" for us, but is he a star of the competition, probably not. Can he drag us over the line to win games, the way a Selwood does, or a Pendlebury does, or a Fyfe does and the answer is no.

He clearly is a vital cog in our team, but as you say, we need the new bunch to go past him and become stars of the AFL.

[Sir Why You Little 34,615]

5 minutes ago, Redleg said:

I get what you mean. He clearly has "starred" for us, but is he a star of the competition, probably not. Can he drag us over the line to win games, the way a Selwood does, or a Pendlebury does, or a Fyfe does and the answer is no.

He clearly is a vital cog in our team, but as you say, we need the new bunch to go past him and become stars of the AFL.

Well put Mr. Leg

jonesy is an excellent Blue Collar worker not a star. 

Gets tagged out of games too often. He must learn to break tags. 

Maybe this is why he is being pushed to run harder. 

[What 18,810]

if Trent Cotchin is considered a star then Nathan Jones better bloody well be

I bet I know who all 18 clubs would take out of the two if given the choice

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,941]

5 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

if Trent Cotchin is considered a star then Nathan Jones better bloody well be

I bet I know who all 18 clubs would take out of the two if given the choice

One thing that has gone against Cotchin is his failure (and his teams) to turn up in finals. Would love to see Jones play in one either this year or next, that could well change the way he is viewed by the football public.

[Gator 16,893]

18 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

if Trent Cotchin is considered a star then Nathan Jones better bloody well be

I bet I know who all 18 clubs would take out of the two if given the choice

Cotchin has more talent than Jones, but he's not a star.  He has the potential to be a star, but he's disappointed over the last 3 years.  Cotchin has had one great season and I'm surprised he hasn't gone on with it.  He was brilliant in 2012 and has been disappointing ever since.

He couldn't handle a tag at under 18 level and he's yet to show he can consistently handle one at AFL level. And 9 possessions in a final when you're captain is abysmal.

That said, I'd take Cotchin over Jones without hesitation.

Edited January 24, 2016 by ProDee

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,941]

11 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Cotchin has more talent than Jones, but he's not a star.  He has the potential to be a star, but he's disappointed over the last 3 years.  Cotchin has had one great season and I'm surprised he hasn't gone on with it.  He was brilliant in 2012 and has been disappointing ever since.

He couldn't handle a tag at under 18 level and he's yet to show he can consistently handle one at AFL level. And 9 possessions in a final when you're captain is abysmal.

That said, I'd take Cotchin over Jones without hesitation.

I'd take Jones. Jones game has improved where as Cotchins has stalled. Plus I believe Cotchin has had better support around him. 

Jones for me. 

Delidio is another story. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

I get what you mean. He clearly has "starred" for us, but is he a star of the competition, probably not. Can he drag us over the line to win games, the way a Selwood does, or a Pendlebury does, or a Fyfe does and the answer is no.

He clearly is a vital cog in our team, but as you say, we need the new bunch to go past him and become stars of the AFL.

 

I'm almost certain none of Selwood, Pendles or Fyfe would have been able to drag us over the line for a win in any of the years from 2011-13 such was the state of our list and club.

Draft an 18 year old Selwood to the MFC in his draft year and I can guarantee he wouldn't be seen as the player he is today. Draft Nathan Jones to Geelong at the top of their power and I can guarantee he'd be valued more highly as a player amongst wider AFL community.

Regardless of all of that, the 'star' debate is a waste of time. It's like arguing on the best Ice Cream flavour. Everyone has their own flavour. It's subjective. Not only that, many other variables come to play. For example, the Selwood Vs Jones debate. Selwood will obviously possess the better stats in almost every category due to playing in such a successful team during such a successful era. Jones the complete opposite. His stats even during his best years individually will suffer due to playing in a far less successful and competitive side over such a long period. That is one example.

Geelong have suffered since the departure of Ablett and ageing and retirements of midfielders Bartel, Johnson, Kelly and Corey. Without them, Selwood hasn't been able to win games off his own boot and his form really wasn't that consistently good this year.

Selwood and Jones are in my mind very similar in playing style, attributes as well as height and weight and if we're isolating them as players, I don't think it's fair to say that Selwood is better than Jones or vice versa. 

However if we were comparing Fyfe to Jones, or Pendlebury to Jones then it's a different story. They're very different players.

Finishing on Oliver vs Jones - Comparing the two from the age of 18 I'd say that it's obvious Oliver has more to offer in terms of attribute diversity, however it remains to be seen whether he has the application and will to get the best out of himself in the way that Jones has been hellbent on doing his entire career.

Like ProDee, I'd hope and expect under our now rock-solid environment and development team that Oliver will be better player than Jones.

Edited January 24, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

5 hours ago, Salems Lot said:

Of course I do Curry; but sometimes watching a thread devolve into a case of school yard "he said - he said" point scoring and finger pointing does not really add much to the experience.  

This just seems like point scoring and hairsplitting for the sake of it.  But you give it your best shot;  I am sure that you don't need my permission.

"......Closes laptop and does something useful with his life"

its so true. often we see someone take a ridiculous position or make a ridiculous statement in the "heat " of discussion that no doubt at any other time they would not make, but instead of retracting or moving on , they consume enormous amounts of time and energy defending this position. this then turns in to a [censored] for tat that destroys the thread.

this exact example is currently happening on another thread. its so clear the poster has "shot from the hip" but now has dug themselves in such a hole arguing "different shades of brown". this is pretty much the biggest thread destroyer there is

[old dee 22,930]

6 minutes ago, Munga said:

its so true. often we see someone take a ridiculous position or make a ridiculous statement in the "heat " of discussion that no doubt at any other time they would not make, but instead of retracting or moving on , they consume enormous amounts of time and energy defending this position. this then turns in to a [censored] for tat that destroys the thread.

this exact example is currently happening on another thread. its so clear the poster has "shot from the hip" but now has dug themselves in such a hole arguing "different shades of brown". this is pretty much the biggest thread destroyer there is

Amen to that Munga

[Dockett 32 1,213]

2 hours ago, ignition. said:

 

 

Sorry ProDee but you're completely delusional, or you haven't watch the Dees play in the last 4 years.

Jones has been bloody good in a very poor side.

If you had taken him back then and placed him in the Hawthorn, Geelong, Sydeny, heck even Collingwood line up you and everyone would be calling him a "star".

So please spare us the rubbish.

Chuck in a couple of Blueys to boot. We all hope Oliver is going to be good and he appears to be doing all the right stuff,  but Jonesy has the runs on the board.

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

A flag is all I care about.  To win a flag you need "stars".  Jones isn't and never will be a star.

Can't argue that, but he is a Hero for the club.  He's been the one player to stand up and fight through the years of rubbish, he's taking personal responsibility for mentoring the next generation of players who will hopefully surpass him and he's never even considered leaving the club for a cheap premiership. 

Given that Oliver has moved in with the Brayshaws, I'm really hoping to see Jones (and Gus) doing the same job of mentoring he did with Gus last year.  You can clearly see the benefit Brayshaw gained from having a mentor like that just around the corner, taking him out of training runs, making sure he got out the door and in to the club on time and just driving home the professional habits needed right from the start.  The training reports, including from Gus himself, say that Oliver loves the physical stuff, loves to tackle and wrestle and is a ferocious competitor.  It sound like he's setting himself up to have a Brayshaw-like first season.  If we get that sort of output from him this year then we're way ahead of the game and should be thrilled. 

[Gator 16,893]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Selwood and Jones are in my mind very similar in playing style, attributes as well as height and weight and if we're isolating them as players, I don't think it's fair to say that Selwood is better than Jones or vice versa. 

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go.  Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones.

Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game.  

He has 4 AA.  Jones has never made the squad.

He's been named best captain in the AFL.

Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player.

He also won the Rising Star award in 2007.

I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions.

Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles.  You don't have to be a star to tackle.  It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well.  

And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

[DeeSpencer 23,237]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go.  Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones.

Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game.  

He has 4 AA.  Jones has never made the squad.

He's been named best captain in the AFL.

Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player.

He also won the Rising Star award in 2007.

I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions.

Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles.  You don't have to be a star to tackle.  It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well.  

And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

Overall I agree, there's a gap between them but I don't think a lot of those achievements really indicate the gap, some of those are just popularity awards above and beyond the stats and eye test that tell you Selwood is better. 

Also this year Selwood's team missed the 8 for the first time in his career and was sat on by heavy tags and often his output suffered and he lost his cool. There were lots of games he didn't do anything significant to help his team win. At one stage I think it was Healy who suggested he take a sabbatical and come back when the team was healthy and more talented.

The opposite to that is this year was probably the first time in his peak form that Jones had a class ruckman and 2 other quality inside mids to work with and on several occasions he hit the scoreboard and gathered the big possession totals that seem to draw interest from the media. He was also carrying a significant injury and our 3rd best midfielder for most of the year. 

My point is, Selwood is ahead of Jones, but there's value in considering just how much better his team has been. I don't think Jones will ever get the reputation Selwood has, but you can see the value improved team performance has had on Matt Priddis who I think is an inferior talent to Jones (better clearance winner but far less skilled) and is now regard as an elite midfielder. 

[Gator 16,893]

The team aspect won't be quantified unless Jones plays alongside him at Geelong.  

My eyes tell me he's clearly a better player and stats and peer recognition suggest the same.

You don't win B&F's playing alongside premiership players in Scarlett, Enright, Ablett, Bartel, Taylor, Kelly, Corey, Johnson, etc. unless you're a star.

Selwood isn't just skilled and tough, he's also a superb reader of the game and decision maker.  It took Jones a long time to improve these aspects of his game. 

Selwood won a B&F in his 4th year.  It took Jones until his 6th season to play decent footy. 

There's no comparison.  Unless of course you're a biased Melbourne suppoerter with blinkers on.

[stuie 7,374]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

That said, I'd take Cotchin over Jones without hesitation.

Wow.

You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly.