THE DRUG SCANDAL: AFL TRIBUNAL DECIDES

[Dr John Dee 1,057]

This is the original piece . . been posted previously . . biased if only in tone!

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/why-asadas-case-against-essendon-players-fell-apart-20150424-1mrc4l.html

People getting exercised about Kane's article as if it represents some sort of measured analysis of the tribunal's decision probably need to look at his by-line ('Advocatus diaboli'). Apart from anything else I wouldn't trust anyone who tries to co-opt 'Hotel California' as a metaphor for anything. But not only does Kane shove the evidence all over the place, he even claims to know the tribunal's discussions ('fierce debate' indeed).

The question still stands though.

'Dees2014' stated that "Kain has been intimately involved in the Hird campaign from the beginning"

In what way? not arguing just wanting to know how he has been involved from the beginning. Was he on the Hird team of lawyers? Is he a mate of Hirds?

It would be good to have a frame of reference to read his opinion from.

If you go to the article deefrag has linked, you'll find another link to more articles by Kane. Just reading the titles should be enough.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Macca,it all comes down to the 'dots' The Tribunal never wanted to. It sought a way of not doing it even when patently obvious. CAS I should imagine will not have any compulsions about extrapolating the obvious..or "reasoned to comfortable satisfaction" because it willl be happy with that..

Effectively the level of proof could be exactly the same between the tribunal and CAS, it all comes down to what youre trying to do? 1) seek a likelihood based upon probabilities and an acceptance of much prime face. or 2) not do as per (1)

Even upon the public availed evidence and such youd have thought WADA had a case to go with, let alone all the stuff we arent privy to.

The tribunal was setup in my belief from the get go by utilising a defined and narrow brief as well as selection of members likely sympathetic to the ideologies of the AFL. If that spells conspiracy because the League sought to extract a decision based upon how it conspired...then yes. Thats obvious.

About to become interesting I sense

[deefrag 277]

April 20, 2015

WADA Statement on ASADA appeal decision

WADA Director General, David Howman: “WADA has received the full case file, and will independently review the information in accordance with the World Anti-Doping Code rules.”

WADA acknowledges the Australian Anti-Doping Authority’s (ASADA) decision not to appeal to the AFL Anti-Doping Appeals Tribunal in respect of the decisions in relation to 34 current and former Essendon players.

WADA has received the full case file, including all evidence related to the decisions, and will independently review the information in accordance with World Anti-Doping Code rules.

WADA will make no further public comment on this matter until it has decided whether or not to exercise its independent right of appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS). WADA has 21 days to exercise this right.

My suspenders are killing me too!!

[ManDee 7,077]

I'll give you a chance to explain your comments.

If it's even hinting at the notion that me being an Essendon supporter means I'm into drugs, I will report you to the mods.

I, like most people theses days, have had friends/family deal with issues surrounding illicit drugs. It's no joking matter.

I was happy with the logical reply from daisycutter, but I'm struggling to interpret your comment.

Ash, IMO you have earned the right to be treated with respect. You have put up with plenty of shyte here due to your supporting EFC, but have been man enough to state your case and argue reasonably.

If the EFC fiasco had happened at Melbourne I hope that I would have the courage to go onto other clubs sites to defend my club where I saw fit as you have done. I note that you have never defended illegal drug use.

The clock will still be ticking for the 34 even if WADA do not appeal by tomorrow. A test for Thymo whatever could till provide that positive test.

[rjay 23,914]

People getting exercised about Kane's article as if it represents some sort of measured analysis of the tribunal's decision probably need to look at his by-line ('Advocatus diaboli'). Apart from anything else I wouldn't trust anyone who tries to co-opt 'Hotel California' as a metaphor for anything. But not only does Kane shove the evidence all over the place, he even claims to know the tribunal's discussions ('fierce debate' indeed).

If you go to the article deefrag has linked, you'll find another link to more articles by Kane. Just reading the titles should be enough.

Thanks 'Doc', he certainly seems to have an agenda. Not sure where it's coming from.

Edited May 11, 2015 by rjay

[Ash35 425]

The clock will still be ticking for the 34 even if WADA do not appeal by tomorrow. A test for Thymo whatever could till provide that positive test.

And I think that's where a decision by WADA not to appeal might lie.

WADA don't appeal losing cases.

But maybe hold off a few months, get the positive tests through a new type of test that is being developed, and then they have the evidence they need to get the job done.

The next 12-24 hours will be very interesting.

Not just whether WADA appeal, but if they don't, what their reasons are.

[faultydet 7,593]

And I think that's where a decision by WADA not to appeal might lie.

WADA don't appeal losing cases.

But maybe hold off a few months, get the positive tests through a new type of test that is being developed, and then they have the evidence they need to get the job done.

The next 12-24 hours will be very interesting.

Not just whether WADA appeal, but if they don't, what their reasons are.

Ash, whats your understanding of how many samples they hold? Is it for all the players in question?

[deefrag 277]

I'll give you a chance to explain your comments.

If it's even hinting at the notion that me being an Essendon supporter means I'm into drugs, I will report you to the mods.

I, like most people theses days, have had friends/family deal with issues surrounding illicit drugs. It's no joking matter.

I was happy with the logical reply from daisycutter, but I'm struggling to interpret your comment.

Correct "drugs are no laughing matter" . . so, why not take your anti drug sentiments to the Essendon F.C board where they may do some good?

Sitting astride your high horse making threats to Demon supporters on a Demon Fan site just seems to me somewhat disingenuous!!

Edited May 11, 2015 by deefrag

[Lucifers Hero 37,043]

Correct "drugs are no laughing matter" . . so, why not take your anti drug sentiments to the Essendon F.C board where they may do some good?

Sitting astride your high horse making threats to Demon supporters on a Demon Fan site just seems to me somewhat disingenuous!!

Easy there deefrag. You will notice Ash has been a member on DL since 2005. While Ash doesn't bleed red and blue like the rest of us on DL he sure has a big soft spot for red and blue in his heart. For me I like to hear his opinion as he is genuine.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Lucifer's Hero

[binman 38,081]

The next 12-24 hours will be very interesting.

Not just whether WADA appeal, but if they don't, what their reasons are.

Good call Ash. One assumes they will make a statement either way (hopefully a presser) but they are under no obligation to make any comment in the event they decide not to appeal. But you hope they would and yes i would be very interested in their rationale.

[John Crow Batty 8,255]

If they know they have a blood test for TB4 ready within the next 12 months they won't appeal IMO.

[sue 8,430]

If they know they have a blood test for TB4 ready within the next 12 months they won't appeal IMO.

If announced, this would be a terrible outcome for the players, especially if they don't really know what was injected (or know they are guilty, in which case my sympathy evaporates).

[Fork 'em 6,507]

Maybe it's the Essendon FC member in me coming out, but that's how I see things. Having said that, none of anything he writes, or Caro, or anyone changes my opinion on this matter.

Maybe its the football supporter in me but nothing you write, Robbo writes or Hird says will change my opinion that the EFC injected their players with performance enhancing substances.

The club then proceeded to destroy records while the coach and his criminally associated key witnesses withheld information to beat the charge.

Whether or not WADA appeals or not, in the court of public opinion your club is guilty as charged and the drug cheat label will be worn like an albatross around the EFCs neck for a long, long time.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Fork 'em

[Dees2014 2,377]

And I think that's where a decision by WADA not to appeal might lie.

WADA don't appeal losing cases.

But maybe hold off a few months, get the positive tests through a new type of test that is being developed, and then they have the evidence they need to get the job done.

The next 12-24 hours will be very interesting.

Not just whether WADA appeal, but if they don't, what their reasons are.

WADA loses cases all the time if they think it would make a wider point, but they don't lose cases though on major policy issues usually, and this is a major policy issue.

As usual Hird is playing games . Kane has been a piece in his jigsaw for sometime, but not a major one. In the end he will have no influence on the outcome.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Dees2014

[Ash35 425]

Maybe its the football supporter in me but nothing you write, Robbo writes or Hird says will change my opinion that the EFC injected their players with performance enhancing substances.

The club then proceeded to destroy records while the coach and his criminally associated key witnesses withheld information to beat the charge.

Whether or not WADA appeals or not, in the court of public opinion your club is guilty as charged and the drug cheat label will be worn like an albatross around the EFCs neck for a long, long time.

I'm not here to change your opinion, or anyone on here for that matter.

Hypothetically, even if I had somehow stumbled across the mystery disappearing records. And lets say for the sake of the argument that those records actually cleared Essendon, most of you wouldn't want to know about it, your minds are made up. Which is fine.

I reckon deefrag doesn't want a WADA appeal to go ahead in case it somehow miraculously clears Essendon, he'd prefer to have the case in limbo just so he can hate on Essendon with a passion. That says more about him than anything.

And to you, deefrag, not that I ever need to justify myself to a person like you, but if you must know, at the last board election of the EFC, I voted for the only candidate that wanted to remove Hird as coach. I have always said he should not be coach of my football club as things stand at the moment.

But like I said, I'm not here to impress haters like you. You're not worth it mate.

[Ash35 425]

Ash, whats your understanding of how many samples they hold? Is it for all the players in question?

Don't have any hard info, but my understanding is that there has been samples kept for future testing.

I assume that would only be done if the samples related to the 'Essendon 34' from 2012.

[Dwight Schrute 16,754]

Ash, I think if there was any smoking gun like records out there that would clear Essendon the investigation wouldn't have gone Ahead, do ASADA need a warrant to search the bottom of the shredders at windy hill?

[Ash35 425]

Ash, I think if there was any smoking gun like records out there that would clear Essendon the investigation wouldn't have gone Ahead, do ASADA need a warrant to search the bottom of the shredders at windy hill?

Not saying they exist, it was just a hypothetical.

I really hope that if my club has destroyed records that show they took performance enhancing drugs, that the "loop hole" that has allowed this to happen gets closed.

If it was the case, I would be extremely disappointed and not in any way proud of my club.

Obviously quite the opposite to proud.

Many on here will say that this has clearly happened.

I'm still waiting for the hard evidence.

Poor record keeping does not automatically mean destroying of evidence.

I am sincere in saying, and I have said it before, IF it can be proven that my club has done the wrong, the appropriate penalties must be handed out.

[Willmoy1947 3,777]

Plenty to dislike about the bombers before "This Issue"

Gets worse the further back you go. Not looking for a bite. Just a fact.

[faultydet 7,593]

WADA loses cases all the time if they think it would make a wider point, but they don't lose cases though on major policy issues usually, and this is a major policy issue.

As usual Hird is playing games . Kane has been a piece in his jigsaw for sometime, but not a major one. In the end he will have no influence on the outcome.

With respect 2014, geez you remind me of Grand New Flags posts at trade time.

Very promising, and sooooo confident, and all evaporating at the last minute.

What makes you think you will be any different? Serious question mate, as Im hoping like hell you are correct.

faulty.

Edited May 11, 2015 by faultydet

[Dwight Schrute 16,754]

It's great to see a bombers supporter that doesn't have his head in the clouds, well done ash

I've stated previously that it should be as simple as no records= guilty, it's been established that a pretty serious injection program was in place, in my opinion if the bombers haven't kept records of that its not only a disastrous failure from a management perspective, they have failed the players and competition but I believe the sporting body should punish them as though it is the worst case scenario unless they can prove its not.

It's just my opinion, I sincerely hope Essendon have done nothing wrong for the players sake but we aren't talking about kids forgetting homework, it's a professional sporting organisation and there is no excuse.

The very possibility they could have done this destroys my confidence in and love for the sport.

[daisycutter 28,529]

Not saying they exist, it was just a hypothetical.

I really hope that if my club has destroyed records that show they took performance enhancing drugs, that the "loop hole" that has allowed this to happen gets closed.

If it was the case, I would be extremely disappointed and not in any way proud of my club.

Obviously quite the opposite to proud.

Many on here will say that this has clearly happened.

I'm still waiting for the hard evidence.

Poor record keeping does not automatically mean destroying of evidence.

I am sincere in saying, and I have said it before, IF it can be proven that my club has done the wrong, the appropriate penalties must be handed out.

trouble is ash that it is not really a case of "poor record keeping"

it's either a case of "no record keeping" or "hidden/destroyed record keeping'

the former just defies logic in such an involved operation and scientific undertaking

the latter seems inescapable

"poor record keeping" just sounds wishful thinking and delusional

if i was in your situation i'd like to think something like that too, but it's really not very logical

[Ash35 425]

It's great to see a bombers supporter that doesn't have his head in the clouds, well done ash

I've stated previously that it should be as simple as no records= guilty, it's been established that a pretty serious injection program was in place, in my opinion if the bombers haven't kept records of that its not only a disastrous failure from a management perspective, they have failed the players and competition but I believe the sporting body should punish them as though it is the worst case scenario unless they can prove its not.

It's just my opinion, I sincerely hope Essendon have done nothing wrong for the players sake but we aren't talking about kids forgetting homework, it's a professional sporting organisation and there is no excuse.

The very possibility they could have done this destroys my confidence in and love for the sport.

I fully understand that point of view.

And I fully agree that this is an extremely serious issue.

So as an Essendon member, I want to be 100% sure we have done the things we are being accused of.

Hence my welcoming of a WADA appeal.

[Ash35 425]

trouble is ash that it is not really a case of "poor record keeping"

it's either a case of "no record keeping" or "hidden/destroyed record keeping'

the former just defies logic in such an involved operation and scientific undertaking

the latter seems inescapable

"poor record keeping" just sounds wishful thinking and delusional

if i was in your situation i'd like to think something like that too, but it's really not very logical

Not keeping records would qualify as poor record keeping I would think.

So yes, if you want to be technical, I will change my phrasing from "poor record keeping" to "no record keeping".

[sue 8,430]

Not keeping records would qualify as poor record keeping I would think.

So yes, if you want to be technical, I will change my phrasing from "poor record keeping" to "no record keeping".

As several posters have said, it defies belief that any program as described in Ziggy's report would not keep records in this professional scientific age. So their absence now is more than highly suspicious.

You have a lot of respect here Ash, as does my mate who has given away supporting EFC and AFL. Don't know what will bring him back, but I suspect a clearing out of Hird and co would satisfy him. He'd probably forgive the players assuming they were duped of pressured -maybe even if they were individual drug cheats. But the admin, never.