Jump to content

THE DRUG SCANDAL: AFL TRIBUNAL DECIDES


Whispering_Jack

Recommended Posts

The AFL Tribunal hearing into the Essendon doping scandal is over and the decision has gone in favour of the 34 accused players.

It appears the full decision of the AFL Tribunal is going to make interesting reading ~ Secret report finds Essendon's drugs record-keeping was 'deplorable'

On reading this, I am more certain than ever before that the Essendon players ingested the illegal supplement TB4 (and possibly other prohibited substances) and that the Tribunal ruled in favour of the players on a technicality - namely that they failed to be comfortably satisfied from the circumstantial case presented by ASADA as to what the players were given in 2012 because the evidence of the likes of Dank, Charter and Alavi was not provided in the form of signed, sworn evidence.

Will ASADA or WADA appeal the decision? They will need to read the written decision closely and come to their own determination but I think the answer might well be in this article on the application of the "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof ~

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNDAULawRw/2012/2.pdf

It was a closed hearing and none of us were privy to everything that went on but based on some of the findings I'm not comfortable that the Tribunal applied the test properly and consistently to the overall evidence in the case and an appeal will almost certainly flow from this alone.

Summary: The Essendon players should in no way feel exonerated.

They can play on for the moment and we need to respect the fact that the proper process has been followed but, in my view, there will be an appeal from WADA because the anti doping rules were designed to protect the clean athletes of this world and to defeat the sports scientists who are always two steps ahead of the game.

Yesterday was not a victory for Essendon. It was a win for Dank*, Charter, Alavi, Hird and many others and in that respect Tuesday 31 March 2015 (and not 7 February 2013) now becomes the blackest day in Australian Sport.

[* and we await with interest as to exactly how the Tribunal will deal with Dank]

  • Like 16
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The day the disease that was to lead to R.I.P. took hold - the day the Tribunal gave the germs or whatever a compromised immune system for a few weeks. Yes, Essendon will be crowing, and then regrouping against an Appeal, and on that will go; but it's the AFL that is mortally sick now. This will metastisize all over the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

good summation WJ

might as well shut the trial thread as all eventualities will now continue from ASADA/WADAS decision to appeal

Somehow im reminded of "he who laughs last......."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The players were never going to be convicted Jack!

ASADA and a supplicant AFL used the process but it was in no bodys' interest to make the charges stick.

Just typical of modern practice where everybody wants to SEEM to be tough on drugs but when given the opportunity to make a strong example the effects on the business / club/code becomes more important. ASADA are obviousely incompetent to think that they could be successful without real evidence

I agree with you that this decision in no way exonerates EFC I believe most football supporters think that the club and the players did the wrong thing and that they have now "got away with it".

Very, very poor outcome that sends all sorts of wrong messages.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Essendon supporters are just unbelievable. "Just so proud of the boys". They feel like they were vindicated and they did nothing wrong. Stuff the haters, #donthesash etc etc.

Remember when all of us Melbourne supporters took to social media to gloat about getting away with tanking? Yeah me neither.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

good summation WJ

might as well shut the trial thread as all eventualities will now continue from ASADA/WADAS decision to appeal

Somehow im reminded of "he who laughs last......."

Done Bub.

The cricket comparison has been raised before so here goes.

The three Trubunal members are all what I consider "old school lawyers" who are black letter of the law men. They decided a case dealing with 21st century issues in the same way as former England opening batsman Geoffrey Boycott used to bat.

This case needed a Davey Warner.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

ASADA has 21 days to appeal (to AFLTribunal Appeal). If they do not WADA can appeal straight to the CAS. And, CAS is a fully fledged court of law, I believe.

Apparently, CAS has a different criteria to 'comfortable satisfaction' that puts some onus on the players to disprove the allegation (please correct if wrong). CAS would also establish 'precedence' from the body of previous cases, in applying WADA rules. Essentially, CAS would hear it as a new case

WADA has probably had a gutful of AFL/EFC manouvres, (so will most likely skip the ASADA appeal) and head straight to CAS.

Getting this case into a new jurisdiction is the only way Australia can be confident (and reassure world sport) that its athletes/players are not cheats!

Edit: Going to CAS, to me, is more about the standing of sport in Australia than seeking to punish players or EFC further. If it doesn't get to CAS there will always be a ? against Australian athletes. If it goes to CAS, even if it finds in favour of the players, justice will seen to have been done, by other sports and countries. Only then can everyone really move on. d

Edited by Lucifer's Hero
Link to comment
Share on other sites


The AFL Tribunal hearing into the Essendon doping scandal is over and the decision has gone in favour of the 34 accused players.

It appears the full decision of the AFL Tribunal is going to make interesting reading ~ Secret report finds Essendon's drugs record-keeping was 'deplorable'

On reading this, I am more certain than ever before that the Essendon players ingested the illegal supplement TB4 (and possibly other prohibited substances) and that the Tribunal ruled in favour of the players on a technicality - namely that they failed to be comfortably satisfied from the circumstantial case presented by ASADA as to what the players were given in 2012 because the evidence of the likes of Dank, Charter and Alavi was not provided in the form of signed, sworn evidence.

Will ASADA or WADA appeal the decision? They will need to read the written decision closely and come to their own determination but I think the answer might well be in this article on the application of the "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof ~

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNDAULawRw/2012/2.pdf

It was a closed hearing and none of us were privy to everything that went on but based on some of the findings I'm not comfortable that the Tribunal applied the test properly and consistently to the overall evidence in the case and an appeal will almost certainly flow from this alone.

Summary: The Essendon players should in no way feel exonerated.

They can play on for the moment and we need to respect the fact that the proper process has been followed but, in my view, there will be an appeal from WADA because the anti doping rules were designed to protect the clean athletes of this world and to defeat the sports scientists who are always two steps ahead of the game.

Yesterday was not a victory for Essendon. It was a win for Dank*, Charter, Alavi, Hird and many others and in that respect Tuesday 31 March 2015 (and not 7 February 2013) now becomes the blackest day in Australian Sport.

[* and we await with interest as to exactly how the Tribunal will deal with Dank]

Aren't you a lawyer WJ?

Not having the evidence to prove your case isn't a 'technicality'. It's simply losing the case.

Have a read of Jake Niall's article today: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-essendon-verdict-the-inside-story-of-the-antidoping-tribunal-hearing-20150331-1mc2nb.html

You can see the significant problems ASADA had, and were always going to have, in making their case without positive tests. It's not a 'technicality' that got the players off, it's a lack of proof to the required standard.

I also quite like the irony of the vast majority on here putting their heads in the sand on the result - it couldn't possibly be that ASADA didn't have the evidence, it has to be a conspiracy! The AFL rigged it! The Murdoch press is rigging it! It's all rigged I tell you! Heads in the sand, ignoring the very real and far more believable possibility that ASADA simply didn't get the job done, doing the exact thing that they bagged Essendon for doing regarding its failure to take proper care.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am not against the individual players not receiving penalties, especially those now at other Clubs. Essendon should not get out of this Scott-free however (notwithstanding the fact that they have already been given some penalty)! IMO, Essendon should forfeit matches or even a season, even though Cooney, Chapman, etc are also been caught up in the wash. No reason that any players should lose match payments or be financially penalised as a result of a situation that they were caught up in as employees. With the farcial paid holiday in France and the States, Hird certainly wasn't despite his managerial role!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aren't you a lawyer WJ?

Not having the evidence to prove your case isn't a 'technicality'. It's simply losing the case.

Have a read of Jake Niall's article today: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-essendon-verdict-the-inside-story-of-the-antidoping-tribunal-hearing-20150331-1mc2nb.html

You can see the significant problems ASADA had, and were always going to have, in making their case without positive tests. It's not a 'technicality' that got the players off, it's a lack of proof to the required standard.

I also quite like the irony of the vast majority on here putting their heads in the sand on the result - it couldn't possibly be that ASADA didn't have the evidence, it has to be a conspiracy! The AFL rigged it! The Murdoch press is rigging it! It's all rigged I tell you! Heads in the sand, ignoring the very real and far more believable possibility that ASADA simply didn't get the job done, doing the exact thing that they bagged Essendon for doing regarding its failure to take proper care.

Give it a rest TU. Clearly WJ meant the technicality of not getting the statements signed or being able to compel those jokers to give evidence. Are you suggesting the statements were a work of fiction?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Aren't you a lawyer WJ?

Not having the evidence to prove your case isn't a 'technicality'. It's simply losing the case.

Have a read of Jake Niall's article today: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/the-essendon-verdict-the-inside-story-of-the-antidoping-tribunal-hearing-20150331-1mc2nb.html

You can see the significant problems ASADA had, and were always going to have, in making their case without positive tests. It's not a 'technicality' that got the players off, it's a lack of proof to the required standard.

I also quite like the irony of the vast majority on here putting their heads in the sand on the result - it couldn't possibly be that ASADA didn't have the evidence, it has to be a conspiracy! The AFL rigged it! The Murdoch press is rigging it! It's all rigged I tell you! Heads in the sand, ignoring the very real and far more believable possibility that ASADA simply didn't get the job done, doing the exact thing that they bagged Essendon for doing regarding its failure to take proper care.

It is I suspect as to how the 3 wise monkeys decided ( or not ) to apply with any consistency their flavour of comfortable satisfaction. They can conduct their work withot any real fear of being vetted by their peers. Theres no review by any court of their own ilk as to whether a true course was followed in arriving at their decision. This will be left to a truly INDEPENDENT body.

The path to the decision seems a little here and there. That they can conclude there was a systemic program , that there were various compounds in use that it was in all likelihood TB4 and in all likelihood NOT Thymomodulin and yet not be prepared to connect that last dot ? ( because their lords and masters may not have been as comfortable with that maybe ? )

Whos paying for all of this. It cant be a true independent hearing as there are absolute vested interests.

Interesting that you suggest that ASADA didnt get the job done. I'd say THEY did...it was 3 others who didnt do theirs. i.e get it done.

Id be very surprised if WADA didnt keep going but then again so much about all of this seems to have played off-Broadway sts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The AFL Tribunal hearing into the Essendon doping scandal is over and the decision has gone in favour of the 34 accused players.

It appears the full decision of the AFL Tribunal is going to make interesting reading ~ Secret report finds Essendon's drugs record-keeping was 'deplorable'

On reading this, I am more certain than ever before that the Essendon players ingested the illegal supplement TB4 (and possibly other prohibited substances) and that the Tribunal ruled in favour of the players on a technicality - namely that they failed to be comfortably satisfied from the circumstantial case presented by ASADA as to what the players were given in 2012 because the evidence of the likes of Dank, Charter and Alavi was not provided in the form of signed, sworn evidence.

Will ASADA or WADA appeal the decision? They will need to read the written decision closely and come to their own determination but I think the answer might well be in this article on the application of the "comfortable satisfaction" standard of proof ~

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/journals/UNDAULawRw/2012/2.pdf

It was a closed hearing and none of us were privy to everything that went on but based on some of the findings I'm not comfortable that the Tribunal applied the test properly and consistently to the overall evidence in the case and an appeal will almost certainly flow from this alone.

Thanks Jack

I think you're right that the real issue here is the comfortable satisfaction test and it looks to me like dismissing a player's statement as having no evidentiary value might suggest that at least one judge's thinking was complicated by a leaning towards reasonable doubt (I assume it was regarded as 'hearsay' but that's exactly the point about what constitutes evidence and how it can be treated that comfortable satisfaction raises).

I also thought that, at the time Charter and Alavi refused to appear, ASADA were happy to proceed on the basis that signed/sworn testimony from the two was available. The Age article refers only to correspondence so maybe you're right. We won't know until the full judgement is available ... if it is. That it's not is highly questionable and certainly gets in the way of any conclusions about the tribunal's approach, especially to what it deemed it would be comfortably satisfied with or not. It's all well and good or the tribunal to hide behind the anti-doping rules on this but since any names referred to can be redacted that's just a furphy, especially as they've decided that the anti-doping rules don't apply to any of the players concerned (whose names we don't 'know' anyway).

I've got other things to do but now you've thrown it in the path I know I'll end up distracting myself with the Davies article today. On the first couple of pages I find remarkable the difference in language and thinking compared to someone like, oh I don't know, that Hardie fellow. You wouldn't know they were in the same trade.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hope ASADA doesn't appeal and everyone can now move on.

Lessons have been learnt. Carrying on with this will prove/achieve nothing.

Also - it's just boring. I'd like the AFL community to get back to discussing the footy, not this stuff.

Disagree RB. It may be boring to you but cheating is cheating and needs to be stomped on, especially cheating which could endanger the health of young blokes.

More generally, although I have questioned the integrity of the AFL and in particular the Tribunal (based on its history of dubious decisions*) I don't think one has to invoke a great conspiracy in all this. A pile of interested parties whose agenda points in one direction doesn't require a meeting in a darkened room.

* The counter that Jones was merely the Chairman at the Hall hearing and that somehow means he was not involved in a decision designed to please the AFL rather than justice, shows a naive confidence in how the Tribunal works.

Edited by sue
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hope ASADA doesn't appeal and everyone can now move on....so its ok...just let the wrong doers get away with it, set a precedent

Lessons have been learnt. What lessons have been learnt, by whom. Possibly that you CAN get AWAY with things.!! Carrying on with this will prove/achieve nothing. The pursuit of whats right is never 'nothing'

Also - it's just boring. Youre bored, others may not be I'd like the AFL community to get back to discussing the footy, not this stuff. Go stick your head back in the sand then. Ignore elephants in rooms etc.

If the competiion isnt a fair one theres no real competition

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's cut to the chase. Did Essendon pay Charter and Alavi to distance themselves from their earlier submissions and not appear in court? It seems to me, they testify, Essendon loses.

Damn good chance thats what happened

Essendon are a disgusting, disgusting club

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Disagree RB. It may be boring to you but cheating is cheating and needs to be stomped on, especially cheating which could endanger the health of young blokes.

More generally, although I have questioned the integrity of the AFL and in particular the Tribunal (based on its history of dubious decisions*) I don't think one has to invoke a great conspiracy in all this. A pile of interested parties whose agenda points in one direction doesn't require a meeting in a darkened room.

* The counter that Jones was merely the Chairman at the Hall hearing and that somehow means he was not involved in a decision designed to please the AFL rather than justice, shows a naive confidence in how the Tribunal works.

The entire thing has been handled in an unbelievably amateurish way.

I don't have any affection for Essendon, although it seems to me that many of the views expressed here are based more on emotion and bias, rather than critical thinking or evidence-based analysis.

Edited by Ron Burgundy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


And, relevantly, Essendon has clearly been punished for what appears to be extremley poor governance. Lost draft picks, coach suspended, stripped of finals appearance etc.

How this investigation has taken so long without any proper evidence is simply amazing to me.

I actually think ASADA should be investigated. Stunning incompetence.

Edited by Ron Burgundy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, relevantly, Essendon has clearly been punished for what appears to be extremley poor governance. Lost draft picks, coach suspended, stripped of finals appearance etc.

How this investigation has taken so long without any proper evidence is simply amazing to me.

I actually think ASADA should be investigated. Stunning incompetence.

Not incompetance. They got shafted.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the case failed because Dank , Alavi and Charter etc did not give sworn statements then there is a massive issue.

If the legislation cannot compel Dank, Alavi, Charter etc to give evidence then the legislation is woefully inadequate.

The burden of proof on ASADA becomes ridiculous and unworkable.

The drug cheats win.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

And, relevantly, Essendon has clearly been punished for what appears to be extremley poor governance. Lost draft picks, coach suspended, stripped of finals appearance etc.

How this investigation has taken so long without any proper evidence is simply amazing to me.

I actually think ASADA should be investigated. Stunning incompetence.

I don't swallow this incompetence line which is pushed by certain parties who have an agenda. They may have been some failings, we don't know enough to say how bad. But they are hampered by not having powers to compel witnesses.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
  • Demonland Forums  

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles  

    GAMEDAY: Rd 10 vs West Coast

    It's Game Day and the Demons have returned to the site of their drought breaking Premiership to take on the West Coast Eagles in what could very well be a danger game for Narrm at Optus Stadium. A win and a percentage boost will keep the Dees in top four contention whilst a loss will cast doubt on the Dees flag credentials and bring them back to the pack fighting for a spot in the 8 as we fast approach the halfway point of the season.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 160

    WARNING by William from Waalitj

    As a long term resident of Waalitj Marawar, I am moved to warn my fellow Narrm fans that a  danger game awaits. The locals are no longer the easybeats who stumbled, fumbled and bumbled their way to the good fortune of gathering the number one draft pick and a generational player in Harley Reid last year. They are definitely better than they were then.   Young Harley has already proven his worth with some stellar performances for a first year kid playing among men. He’s taken hangers, k

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 20

    OVER YET? by KC from Casey

    The Friday evening rush hour clash of two of the VFL’s 2024 minnows, Carlton and the Casey Demons was excruciatingly painful to watch, even if it was for the most part a close encounter. I suppose that since the game had to produce a result (a tie would have done the game some justice), the four points that went to Casey with the win, were fully justified because they went to the best team. In that respect, my opinion is based on the fact that the Blues were a lopsided combination that had

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    CENTIMETRES by Whispering Jack

    Our game is one where the result is often decided by centimetres; the touch of a fingernail, a split-second decision made by a player or official, the angle of vision or the random movement of an oblong ball in flight or in its bounce and trajectory. There is one habit that Melbourne seems to have developed of late in its games against Carlton which is that the Demons keep finding themselves on the wrong end of the stick in terms of the fine line in close games at times when centimetres mak

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    PREGAME: Rd 10 vs West Coast

    The Demons have a 10 day break before they head on the road to Perth to take on the West Coast Eagles at Optus Stadium on Sunday. Who comes in and who goes out?

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 527

    PODCAST: Rd 09 vs Carlton

    The Demonland Podcast will air LIVE on Sunday, 12th May @ 8:30pm. Join George, Binman & I as we analyse the Demons loss at the MCG against the Blues in the Round 09. You questions and comments are a huge part of our podcast so please post anything you want to ask or say below and we'll give you a shout out on the show. If you would like to leave us a voicemail please call 03 9016 3666 and don't worry no body answers so you don't have to talk to a human. Listen & Chat LIVE:

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 30

    VOTES: Rd 09 vs Carlton

    Last week Captain Max Gawn consolidated his lead over reigning champion Christian Petracca in the Demonland Player of the Year Award. Steven May, Jake Lever, Jack Viney & Clayton Oliver make up the Top 5. Your votes for the loss against the Blues. 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 39

    POSTGAME: Rd 09 vs Carlton

    The Demons were blown out of the water in the first quarter and clawed their way back into the contest but it was a case of too little too late as they lost another close one to Carlton losing by 1 point at the MCG.  

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 486

    GAMEDAY: Rd 09 vs Carlton

    It's Game Day and the Demons are once again headlining another blockbuster at the MCG to kick off the round of footy. The Dees take on the Blues and have the opportunity to win their third game on the trot to solidify a spot in the Top 4 in addition to handing the Blues their third consecutive defeat to bundle them out of the Top 8.

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Melbourne Demons 959
  • Tell a friend

    Love Demonland? Tell a friend!

×
×
  • Create New...