Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Slartibartfast 15,846]

And yet to our knowledge - that didn't happen. Can I ask you M, do you believe that the players knew they were doing wrong and turned a blind eye thinking they would never get caught or do you believe they were naive, negligent and just plain foolish to not ask questions.

I agree with your position on this Nutbean. I believe that the players could have reasonably expected to rely on the advice of their doctors and sports scientists.

There is no doubt they are guilty under the code M quoted and they will be subject to that code. But is it good code? Did it envisage a situation where in the EFC environment young men were lied to? Like you I don't believe the players knowingly cheated. I strongly suspect they were lied to either directly or indirectly.

This process we are now going through is, in chess terms, the opening. When it's done and dusted the players, parents and employees will start looking for remedies against the AFL and the EFC. Those basking in Essendon's situation have no idea. This is bad for football and as such it is bad for us. To think there is no trickle down effect is naive.

[jnrmac 19,088]

Its simply implausible the players didn't know what was happening. Yes, they put faith in club leaders that all was above board but the secret nature of this is a massive flashing red light.

Hird - Hey guys we are going on this new cutting edge program. All clubs are doing it. We are going to do it better. you have to sign a waiver but you can't tell anyone this is a black ops program.

We have to go across the road to a clinic because we can't be seen at the club doing this shite. Doc Reid has given it the all clear so you'll be OK.

Bomber did it at geelong and look at them. They are all doing it.

You want a flag don't you?? Course you do.

Hey you dont think I am this good looking by genetics do you??

Sign here.

Edited June 13, 2014 by jnrmac

[old55 21,377]

Essendon must fight legality of ASADA-AFL investigation after show cause notices issued, Mark Robinson writes

This is the most addle brained lack of logic I've read in the Herald Sun's sports pages and reflects the dramatic decline in journalistic standards at News Limited since Mike Sheahan left the building.

What's wrong with fighting the case on the facts rather than the processes or allegations of lack of confidentiality? And this comes from the clown who published the names of a dozen of the Bomber players implicated.

What gall!!!

Compared with - Caro, brave and spot on:

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/time-to-put-players-club-and-the-game-ahead-of-lengthy-legal-stoush-20140613-zs6zp.html

[deanox 8,676]

...

But is it good code? Did it envisage a situation where in the EFC environment young men were lied to? ...

I believe the answer is yes to both of those questions.

The code is written deliberately to place the onus on the athlete at all times. It is very specific.

I believe this is intentional as there is know way a code can differentiate between negligent ignorance and wilful ignorance.

The code deliberately punishes players in the position of the EFC players to prevent anyone ever claiming ignorance. If there was a work around every athlete would be exploiting it.

[Damo 3,000]

I dont think it is bad for the MFC or its supporters. Look at Caro's latest article.

It was only a year ago when we were under the burning spotlight.

Demonlanders thought she had it in for us.

It was a year ago when we were the laughing stock of Essendon supporters especially one Rohan Connolly.

He was giggling at how bad we continued to be. I took it all hard.

Im happy for EFC to suffer long and draw it out, I dont have an ounce of sympathy and dont believe it will be bad for the AFL at all.

[Ted Lasso 16,874]

Well said Caro, time to go down with the ship gracefully rather than holding on hoping for some technicality to get them off

[nutbean 8,837]

Its simply implausible the players didn't know what was happening. Yes, they put faith in club leaders that all was above board but the secret nature of this is a massive flashing red light.

Hird - Hey guys we are going on this new cutting edge program. All clubs are doing it. We are going to do it better. you have to sign a waiver but you can't tell anyone this is a black ops program.

We have to go across the road to a clinic because we can't be seen at the club doing this shite. Doc Reid has given it the all clear so you'll be OK.

Bomber did it at geelong and look at them. They are all doing it.

You want a flag don't you?? Course you do.

Hey you dont think I am this good looking by genetics do you??

Sign here.

And yet even the most scathing articles ( look at Caro's) - suggests that "the club has failed the players."

[rpfc 27,537]

While Essendon wants to take this further for the sake of their own pride, the players should worry about themselves and rip the band-aid off. ASADA outlines the evidence, the players continue to co-operate and the AFL Tribunal gives them sanctions that will see them play at some point in 2015.

The Bombers taking this to court will ruin more careers as they clean out more affected players in each off season so when they lose the case in two years time - the effect on the club is mitigated.

[jnrmac 19,088]

Bang...

[deanox 8,676]

Whatever happens, I am satisfied that it has ruined any premiership window Essendon had.

I don't like then as a club and 2 years ago it looked like they were pushing to be a genuine threat. This year is ruined, hopefully next year too.

And Fletcher may finish with ~390 games and an asterisk.

[Slartibartfast 15,846]

The code is written deliberately to place the onus on the athlete at all times. It is very specific.

I can understand why that is done, making the athlete ultimately responsible. But the EFC situation demonstrates to me why the player is not the one in the best position to make the decision.

Jackson Merrett and Elliott Kavanagh were Essendon's first two picks in the 2011 ND. They were 18. They walk into a club with Hird as coach, Bomber as assistant and Bruce Reid as a 40 year sports medical practitioner. During the PS they are asked to sign a document and undergo a "supplements" program. Watson's doing it, Fletcher's doing it, Hirdy and the Doc say it's fine and Corcoran, who ran Athletic's Australia and as such was very aware and involved in the drug situation give it the big tick.

So they do it. If people can't see they've been duped then I feel for them.

Caro's article is spot on. Guilty people are escaping and the players are taking the fall. They should take their 6 months, sue the club and fight to have the instigators of all of this held to account.

Very sad for the players.

[beelzebub 22,230]

Could have sworn the std ban was upped recently to 4 years. Have to check this

[ManDee 7,091]

Finally a worthy piece of journalism.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/time-to-put-players-club-and-the-game-ahead-of-lengthy-legal-stoush-20140613-zs6zp.html

Caroline Wilson hits it on the head.

I wonder if Robbo and Barrett could ever be so insightful. No I don't, they have proven to be incapable and incompetent for so long that I am actually starting to like Caro.

I miss Mike Sheahan.

[Oneday 248]

Seems EFC have just lodged their appeal to Federal court.

Essendon launches Federal Court challenge against ASADA and AFL

[beelzebub 22,230]

Finally a worthy piece of journalism.

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/time-to-put-players-club-and-the-game-ahead-of-lengthy-legal-stoush-20140613-zs6zp.html

Caroline Wilson hits it on the head.

I wonder if Robbo and Barrett could ever be so insightful. No I don't, they have proven to be incapable and incompetent for so long that I am actually starting to like Caro.

I miss Mike Sheahan.

I find this is one of those rare occasion I agree with her

Im starting to think the bloke running windy Hill is named Don Qu... ...something

[deanox 8,676]

I can understand why that is done, making the athlete ultimately responsible. But the EFC situation demonstrates to me why the player is not the one in the best position to make the decision.

Jackson Merrett and Elliott Kavanagh were Essendon's first two picks in the 2011 ND. They were 18. They walk into a club with Hird as coach, Bomber as assistant and Bruce Reid as a 40 year sports medical practitioner. During the PS they are asked to sign a document and undergo a "supplements" program. Watson's doing it, Fletcher's doing it, Hirdy and the Doc say it's fine and Corcoran, who ran Athletic's Australia and as such was very aware and involved in the drug situation give it the big tick.

So they do it. If people can't see they've been duped then I feel for them.

Caro's article is spot on. Guilty people are escaping and the players are taking the fall. They should take their 6 months, sue the club and fight to have the instigators of all of this held to account.

Very sad for the players.

I agree the players have most likely been poorly advised, and empathise with them.

But at the end of the day they weren't tricked. They knew the names of the substances. They are taught about the wada code. They have smart phones with Internet.

Also they were adults. They could vote, shag, drive and legally sign contacts. Heck, they were all earning good money. Some very good money. And for every 18 year old mentioned there is a 28 year old who had no excuse not to know better.

If your career and your livelihood depended on it, wouldn't you take personal responsibility to check? It isn't hard to type thymosin into the WADA smart phone app to double check.

[Whispering_Jack 28,010]

I agree with your position on this Nutbean. I believe that the players could have reasonably expected to rely on the advice of their doctors and sports scientists.

There is no doubt they are guilty under the code M quoted and they will be subject to that code. But is it good code? Did it envisage a situation where in the EFC environment young men were lied to? Like you I don't believe the players knowingly cheated. I strongly suspect they were lied to either directly or indirectly.

This process we are now going through is, in chess terms, the opening. When it's done and dusted the players, parents and employees will start looking for remedies against the AFL and the EFC. Those basking in Essendon's situation have no idea. This is bad for football and as such it is bad for us. To think there is no trickle down effect is naive.

I agree that it's bad for football and it was thus since the day in 2011/12 that James Hird together with Stephen Dank decided to embark on the programme. It got dramatically worse on 7 February, 2013, deteriorated with the decision to conduct a joint AFL/ASADA investigation and then became a disaster for the code when control of the Essendon Football Club landed in Little's hands. He is now taking that club into doomsday scenario.

Essendon's posturing in this instance has the potential of killing the club and whilst I will feel bad for their supporters and pity for their players, I won't cry a single tear for them.

[John Crow Batty 8,266]

I heard James Hird picked up a temporary holiday job in France. He will be in charge of the refreshment stations for the riders in the Tour de France starting soon.

[Sir Why You Little 34,614]

I agree with your position on this Nutbean. I believe that the players could have reasonably expected to rely on the advice of their doctors and sports scientists.

There is no doubt they are guilty under the code M quoted and they will be subject to that code. But is it good code? Did it envisage a situation where in the EFC environment young men were lied to? Like you I don't believe the players knowingly cheated. I strongly suspect they were lied to either directly or indirectly.

This process we are now going through is, in chess terms, the opening. When it's done and dusted the players, parents and employees will start looking for remedies against the AFL and the EFC. Those basking in Essendon's situation have no idea. This is bad for football and as such it is bad for us. To think there is no trickle down effect is naive.

A small amount of research could have easily given them the correct information....

After the Carlton game in 2012 Carlton players came off the ground with Broken Bones....Essendon players had "Bulked right up"

From this players went to Ratten and asked "What the F... is going on out there"

That is when the ball started rolling....From a Carlton insider....

Essendon Football Club knew very well what was going on...do not be so delusional...

[nutbean 8,837]

I agree the players have most likely been poorly advised, and empathise with them.

But at the end of the day they weren't tricked. They knew the names of the substances. They are taught about the wada code. They have smart phones with Internet.

Also they were adults. They could vote, shag, drive and legally sign contacts. Heck, they were all earning good money. Some very good money. And for every 18 year old mentioned there is a 28 year old who had no excuse not to know better.

If your career and your livelihood depended on it, wouldn't you take personal responsibility to check? It isn't hard to type thymosin into the WADA smart phone app to double check.

I have a few questions to you as you seem to be well in advance of what is known

- you know the players weren't tricked ? - you know that the players were told that they taking something illegal - because if the club said this is all above board - no problem - then yes - they were tricked

- you know that the players were told exactly what they were taking ? there seems to be some confusion as the club is still suggesting that they took nothing illegal

I understand if one player is asked to take something - one on one with a doctor - you would check - but this was a list wide program - it is not unreasonable if the club is asking the whole list to go on the program that they would have done their due diligence.

[Webber 10,150]

I believe the answer is yes to both of those questions.

The code is written deliberately to place the onus on the athlete at all times. It is very specific.

I believe this is intentional as there is know way a code can differentiate between negligent ignorance and wilful ignorance.

The code deliberately punishes players in the position of the EFC players to prevent anyone ever claiming ignorance. If there was a work around every athlete would be exploiting it.

They would, and they shouldn't be able to, as you say, but moreover it should be incumbent upon the club to specifically educate them in the dangers of ANY substances, injectable or otherwise, and regardless of who administers or provides them, from within or without the club. In this case, the players will be penalised for the appalling failings of the club, and for their own failings of ignorance, naivety and trust. There is an element of scapegoating here, and I do feel sorry for the players, but the end result will be more vigilance and better governance across the AFL, and that's a good thing.

[Webber 10,150]

I agree the players have most likely been poorly advised, and empathise with them.

But at the end of the day they weren't tricked. They knew the names of the substances. They are taught about the wada code. They have smart phones with Internet.

Also they were adults. They could vote, shag, drive and legally sign contacts. Heck, they were all earning good money. Some very good money. And for every 18 year old mentioned there is a 28 year old who had no excuse not to know better.

If your career and your livelihood depended on it, wouldn't you take personal responsibility to check? It isn't hard to type thymosin into the WADA smart phone app to double check.

You may be blessing the average AFL footballer with more attributes than they possess, deanox. And don't forget that trust and teamwork are the catch cry of all clubs, and I have no doubt they were predisposed to trust much more than to question.

[nutbean 8,837]

A small amount of research could have easily given them the correct information....

After the Carlton game in 2012 Carlton players came off the ground with Broken Bones....Essendon players had "Bulked right up"

From this players went to Ratten and asked "What the F... is going on out there"

That is when the ball started rolling....From a Carlton insider....

Essendon Football Club knew very well what was going on...do not be so delusional...

There are supplements and programs to bulk you up that are not illegal.

If a small amount of research could have easily given the information then why are Essendon still claiming what was given to the players was not illegal ????

The Club certainly may have known what was going on - I am not so sure that the players were not duped.

[beelzebub 22,230]

Whilst many will have us dance around the may pole and such with explanations of blame etc there is but one simple question in play in amongst all of this.

Are Essendon players/coaches/ staff subject to the rules as laid out by WADA ? The answer of course is YES

further by such rules it's incumbent upon whom to ensure the code is fully adhered to ? Answer , the individual themselves

Colour this, paint this , tart this up any way you like . It doesnt matter

[rjay 23,929]

I'm not sure if I was hearing things this morning but didn't Tim Watson finally raise doubts about the club and what had been done to the players? Was this the first real crack in the dam. I can't find anything reported but thought I heard something on SEN.

Edited June 13, 2014 by rjay