Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[Grapeviney 8,815]

I reckon the reason they're not pursuing the AOD issue is that they were unclear of its legal status and may have even incorrectly advised Essendon that it was OK.

Wasn't it incorrectly classified in the original ACC Report?

[ManDee 7,077]

He has made a statement, it's being translated from French into English as we speak.

Merde!

vas te faire encule AFL! - James Hird

[chook fowler 18,227]

They're only going to get a slap on the wrist for this - nothing surer.

Hird's attitude is contemptible.

[mauriesy 6,790]

We are on the same page - my sadness is that whilst I have always believed that individuals transgress when it comes to drugs I never wanted to see the problem widen to whole segments of the industry like it has with cycling.

I have some sympathy for the footballers themselves. I am positive that they did not believe that they were taking something wrong and wouldn't get caught. I believe they put themselves in the hands of the club and its medical staff. I am sure there was a certain amount of naivety in the players acquiescing to the program. Although I still shake my head that players were asked to sign a document agreeing to the treatment. That really should have rung alarm bells.

One thing for certain - no footballer will accept any treatment without question again.

There's been a terrible lack of player education about the WADA drug code that the AFL signed up to some years ago. There's a WADA Athlete Guide that's been around since 2008 that details each athlete's responsibility. There's even an iPhone app to give access.

In that guide, it explains how under the WADA code, athletes have constant and updated access to the List of Prohibited Substances:

"The List of Prohibited Substances and Methods (List), updated annually by WADA, is the International Standard defining what is prohibited in- and out-of-competition. The List also indicates whether particular substances are banned in particular sports. The most current edition of the List is posted on WADA’s Web site at www.wada-ama.org".

The guide also specifically advises of the “strict liability” principle, which is:

Athletes should know that, under the Code, they are strictly liable whenever a prohibited substance is found in their bodily specimen. This means that a violation occurs whether or not the athlete intentionally, knowingly or unknowingly, used a prohibited substance or was negligent or otherwise at fault. It is therefore very important for athletes to understand not only what is prohibited, but also what might potentially cause an inadvertent doping violation.

Saying "I didn't know I was taking it" or "my doctor gave it to me" is the oldest excuse in the book.

So I have no sympathy for the Essendon Football Club (or indeed for any other club if they did the same) and I have little sympathy for the Essendon players (or indeed for any other player if they did the same). Complaining about the length of time for, and the nature of, the investigation, when it needed over 300 interviews and over 100,000 documents to be amassed, particularly because of lax record keeping and administrative negligence on the part of the Essendon football club (and Dank etc.) is hypocritical.

Doping is cheating not just because it's taking drugs, but because it's giving doping athletes an unfair and illegal advantage over the whole field (in this case the other teams in the AFL).

Australia has been going on about Bulgarian weightlifters, Chinese and East German swimmers, cyclists, sprinters etc. for decades. We shouldn't squeal like stuck pigs when some of our own athletes get caught in the same net.

[Whispering_Jack 27,971]

I reckon the reason they're not pursuing the AOD issue is that they were unclear of its legal status and may have even incorrectly advised Essendon that it was OK.

Wasn't it incorrectly classified in the original ACC Report?

I think AOD9604 is still a live issue and might come back to haunt Essendon at some future time if ASADA or WADA don't get what they want through the TB4 claim.

The manner in which ASADA is proceeding would be very much influenced by Judge Downe's review of the evidence and it seems to me that he is confident that the TB4 claim will stick and there's no need therefore to open a new can of worms with AOD9604 which would give Essendon some wriggle room with a "he said, she said" argument about what the club might or might not have been told by someone at ASADA. On what I've heard and read there is little doubt that some Essendon players intended to have AOD9604 injected into them and they probably did and it can be proven to the standard required. However, the removal of AOD9604 gives Essendon one less leg to rely on to stretch out the matter and therefore creates greater possibilities for an earlier outcome.

That said, it seems clear that the Essendon tactic will be to use lawfare to wear ASADA down which is Little's standard modus operandum but one which is unlikely to work against a government agency backed by WADA.

[monoccular 16,065]

Why was Hird allowed to keep getting paid 1M by essendrug wile suspended? It's a disgrace. The AFL backed down after hints of legal action.

The AFL have been and remain gutless especially when dealing with the "big clubs - even something as simple and basic as the clash jumpers is too hard for them. They wouldn't take on Carlton re tanking even though it was they who perfected it as an art form; instead they kicked a struggling club in a vain attempt to save face,

Well, guess what EssUndone - your club could be forced to its knees, not by the gutless AFL administration but by an outside body.

Edited June 13, 2014 by monoccular

[Sir Why You Little 34,443]

They're only going to get a slap on the wrist for this - nothing surer.

Hird's attitude is contemptible.

I certainly hope not.

ASADA should hit them hard if they have a case.

Essendon should not have hung David Evans out to dry.

They may have already served their time if his advice had been taken.

Not one bit of sympathy for the bastards now.

I will hate them till i die.

Paul Little is going to bleed them dry to uphold his honour.

[Cards13 9,117]

McDevitt does seem like a bloke who would be "pushed" around by anyone let alone a sporting club.

[Dwight Schrute 16,751]

It's hilarious watching the bombers supporters try and say they still might get off and they didn't cheat

[ManDee 7,077]

The AFL have been and remain gutless especially when dealing with the "big clubs - even something as simple and basic as the clash jumpers is too hard for them. They wouldn't take on Carlton re tanking even though it was they who perfected it as an art form; instead they kicked a struggling club in a vain attempt to save face,

Well, guess what EssUndone - your club could be forced to its knees, not by the gutless AFL administration but by an outside body.

I think the AFL are happy for ASADA to do the hard yards on this. They can be seen to admonish the bad behavior of the EFC but to support the players and club for the good of the competition. I think their position is predictable. I also think James Hird is still in the AFL's guns. I'd be happy to take bets that he never coaches AFL again.

[Whispering_Jack 27,971]

Essendon must fight legality of ASADA-AFL investigation after show cause notices issued, Mark Robinson writes

This is not about the “show cause” notices received yesterday, but about the process and confidentiality of the joint AFL-Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority probe.

This is the most addle brained lack of logic I've read in the Herald Sun's sports pages and reflects the dramatic decline in journalistic standards at News Limited since Mike Sheahan left the building.

What's wrong with fighting the case on the facts rather than the processes or allegations of lack of confidentiality? And this comes from the clown who published the names of a dozen of the Bomber players implicated.

What gall!!!

[MadAsHell 4,088]

I heard the head of ASADA speak on MMM this morning.

To me it seemed he was preparing the public for reduced sentences. He said that the sanction is supposed to be 2 years, but it can be reduced to one year if the players can prove it was done without their knowledge. He then said there can be "further significant reductions" in sanction time if the players co-operate with the investigation and demonstrate they have provided truthful evidence to the investigators.

IMHO, after hearing that interview, the players will end up with a 6 month sanction. Max.

That could happen, but highly unlikely.

Even if a deal with ASADA was struck, WADA then have the power to come over the top and say no, no you must serve the full length. I believe that's what happened with Wade Lees when he initially only got 18 months I think it was but then got pushed up to 24.

And don't forget, Lee's never even took the substance he got caught trying to import and said he didn't know it had a banned agent in it, but that didn't help him. So if Essendon's players have ended up being injected with a banned substance, it should be good night for 24 months.

The smart thing to do would be to drop their legal defence at the end of the 2014 season and sit out 15' & 16' and be good to go for pre-season 2017 but with the idiot Little in charge that wont happen.

[Uncle Fester 2,835]

Essendon must fight legality of ASADA-AFL investigation after show cause notices issued, Mark Robinson writes

This is the most addle brained lack of logic I've read in the Herald Sun's sports pages and reflects the dramatic decline in journalistic standards at News Limited since Mike Sheahan left the building.

What's wrong with fighting the case on the facts rather than the processes or allegations of lack of confidentiality? And this comes from the clown who published the names of a dozen of the Bomber players implicated.

What gall!!!

If the best legal mind in the country - Slobbo Robbo - says it then they'd be mad not to take his advice.

[ManDee 7,077]

Essendon must fight legality of ASADA-AFL investigation after show cause notices issued, Mark Robinson writes

This is the most addle brained lack of logic I've read in the Herald Sun's sports pages and reflects the dramatic decline in journalistic standards at News Limited since Mike Sheahan left the building.

What's wrong with fighting the case on the facts rather than the processes or allegations of lack of confidentiality? And this comes from the clown who published the names of a dozen of the Bomber players implicated.

What gall!!!

A small problem here, a lot of the facts have gone missing. EFC have lost/destroyed/hidden/not kept the records that may now be called upon to clear them.

[nutbean 8,837]

Athletes should know that, under the Code, they are strictly liable whenever a prohibited substance is found in their bodily specimen. This means that a violation occurs whether or not the athlete intentionally, knowingly or unknowingly, used a prohibited substance or was negligent or otherwise at fault. It is therefore very important for athletes to understand not only what is prohibited, but also what might potentially cause an inadvertent doping violation.

Saying "I didn't know I was taking it" or "my doctor gave it to me" is the oldest excuse in the book.

I get all that but you have an expectation that your own club is not going to screw you over.

I might be wrong but I don't believe the players knew that they were taking prohibited substances - I believe, according to the code, that they were negligent in not being vigilant in finding out exactly what they were taking.

I get that it is the players responsibility to know exactly what is being administered and that is why they will be punished. But as stated above,when the entire playing list is going through the program I'm sure that the players ( incorrectly) assumed that the club was not administering anything wrong.

Because this is the first of it's kind ( mass doping) in the AFL I will not have any sympathy for the next caught as there is a valuable lesson for the players - do not trust anyone including your own club and club doctors.

[Cards13 9,117]

He seems like a sharp operator does Mr McDevitt. Planting the seed, looking to drive the wedge between player and club. Will be hard for the players considering they are all being represented as one and one of the lawyers worked with the Bombers earlier this year on the case.

The second point is I am amazed the CEO of the AFL has stated these are allegations only. McDevitt states below he and ASADA believe a potential violation has occurred.

"If an athlete can demonstrate, for example, that they didn't know what they were receiving was in fact a performance-enhancing substance which was prohibited, then they may be able to claim no significant fault - which could lead to a reduction of up to 50 per cent in the penalty that could be imposed," he said.

"It may well be the case that an athlete doesn't know that they have actually received, through injection or ingestion or otherwise, the prohibited substance.

"But the reality for me is that under the code is that this is a strict and absolute offence.

"What needs to be proved here actually is that a player has used a substance and that that substance is a prohibited substance.

"A show-cause notice in effect says to a player that I have reached a point in my assessment in a particular matter that I am satisfied that a potential violation or possible violation of our anti-doping code has occurred.

"And in this case those violations now will be notified through the show-cause notice to the player and will then go to an independent panel."

[mauriesy 6,790]

I get all that but you have an expectation that your own club is not going to screw you over.

I might be wrong but I don't believe the players knew that they were taking prohibited substances - I believe, according to the code, that they were negligent in not being vigilant in finding out exactly what they were taking.

I get that it is the players responsibility to know exactly what is being administered and that is why they will be punished. But as stated above,when the entire playing list is going through the program I'm sure that the players ( incorrectly) assumed that the club was not administering anything wrong.

Football clubs would be one of the worst environments for whistle blowing.

But all it needed was for one player to ask "what the hell is going on here?"

[nutbean 8,837]

But all it needed was for one player to ask "what the hell is going on here?"

And yet to our knowledge - that didn't happen. Can I ask you M, do you believe that the players knew they were doing wrong and turned a blind eye thinking they would never get caught or do you believe they were naive, negligent and just plain foolish to not ask questions.

[old dee 22,852]

And yet to our knowledge - that didn't happen. Can I ask you M, do you believe that the players knew they were doing wrong and turned a blind eye thinking they would never get caught or do you believe they were naive, negligent and just plain foolish to not ask questions.

All of these plus the over riding pressure of St James

[ManDee 7,077]

And yet to our knowledge - that didn't happen. Can I ask you M, do you believe that the players knew they were doing wrong and turned a blind eye thinking they would never get caught or do you believe they were naive, negligent and just plain foolish to not ask questions.

I love those questions.

When did you stop beating your wife?

What is your excuse for speeding?

I empathise with your situation but in your defence would you say you were a liar or a cheat?

Edit- remove typo.

Edited June 13, 2014 by ManDee

[bing181 8,165]

vas te faire encule AFL! - James Hird

Mr. Hird would probably indeed say that, French being another of his failings, but in the circumstances it should be "allez vous faire enculer". On the other hand, given that there's no mention of recent events in this morning's L'Equipe, perhaps he's eating his croissants in blissful ignorance.

Don't know how anyone from the AFL or Essendon can pretend that this won't lead to sanctions. Show cause notices are the last step before the axe falls, they're way beyond "come in for a chat" which is what the AFL are trying to make out.

[nutbean 8,837]

I love those questions.

When did you stop beating your wife?

What is your excuse for speeding?

I empathise with your situation but in your defence would you say you were a liar or a cheat?

Edit- remove typo.

Just to reply.

Not sure about your analogies at all.

Beating your wife - the individual has the knowledge that they are doing something that is blatantly wrong ?

As to speeding - the individual has the knowledge that they are doing something that is blatantly wrong ?

And I empathise with you situation but in your defense would you say were a liar or a cheat or just plain foolish that you didn't question.

Quoting McDevitt - "If an athlete can demonstrate, for example, that they didn't know what they were receiving was in fact a performance-enhancing substance which was prohibited, then they may be able to claim no significant fault - which could lead to a reduction of up to 50 per cent in the penalty that could be imposed," he said.

I am suggesting that they players were naive and foolish not to question.

Lets take this argument to its logical end - When the players saw the other 40 odd players on the list all being signed up in the same program would the thought not go through the individual players mind - "Surely my club can't be that stupid, with all the penalties that can be handed down, to give prohibited substances to the entire list ??" Now the answer in hindsight is yes - the club could be that stupid.

[chook fowler 18,227]

Baise vous Hird. May you be neck deep in merde.

[The Reverend 1,704]

Just spent 10 minutes looking at Essendon's Big Footy board - seems like total denial. Maybe the drug program has been more widespread than first thought.

[nutbean 8,837]

All of these plus the over riding pressure of St James

If the coach pressured - " don't ask questions - just take it " then I have zero sympathy for the players.

I know it may be herd mentality ( wow - what a horrific pun) but as i said above, logically - with the entire list get the jabs, as an individual player knowing the penalties, my first thought would be that my club knows what it is doing.