Cloke and Collingwood - to part or not to part?

[The heart beats true 18,123]

Think Jack Reiwoldt/Kozitsche.....

Oh great, we need a player that someone handballs to in the square to make his stats look better than they should. ;-)

[Hannibal 5,814]

We have a much bigger need for good mids and small forwards.

Yes Viney and pick 4 and pick 12 addresses the mids. The Saints got Saad and Milera in one draft as small forwards. How easy is it to get 60+ key position forwards ?

[Hannibal 5,814]

We are not in the right part of the cycle to go for a Cloke, a club like Carlton if they could afford him are an ideal fit.

We need to build from within and both Lucas Cook and Jai Sheahan are in the system, Jai is being played down back at the moment but was a KPF at the Falcons. I really believe in the Geelong model of building your own with the odd nudge, Ottens for them Clark for us.

I'm also old enough to remember Templeton, Moore, Tilbrook etc waiting for the messiah, all the eggs in the one basket whatever you choose to call it football is a team game. Build a strong list not blow it all on one player.

Denham perpetuates this line of thinking. How long do you think Cloke has left as a key forward and how long do you think we need before we're a possible finals force ?

Things can change far quicker than people believe and the basis of our list is sound. Frawley/Watts/McDonald down back, Cloke/Clark up forward, and Viney/Trengove/Gysberts/Grimes/plus two gun mids this draft are the basis for a very solid group.

I too remember Templeton and Moore too. So what ? We're not defined by our past successes, so we're certainly not defined by our past failures.

[Range Rover 1,935]

I've got no problem with the club throwing the kitchen sink at Cloke.

He is quite simply a monster.

A Frawley - Watts - Trengove - Clark - Cloke spine has an ominous look about it.

[rjay 24,917]

Denham perpetuates this line of thinking. How long do you think Cloke has left as a key forward and how long do you think we need before we're a possible finals force ?

Things can change far quicker than people believe and the basis of our list is sound. Frawley/Watts/McDonald down back, Cloke/Clark up forward, and Viney/Trengove/Gysberts/Grimes/plus two gun mids this draft are the basis for a very solid group.

I too remember Templeton and Moore too. So what ? We're not defined by our past successes, so we're certainly not defined by our past failures.

No we're not, but you learn from them...and by the way have a look at Carlton and to a lesser extent GC. Judd and Ablett, both clubs are way to conscious of their star recruits and it effects their teams. When Geelong recruited Ottens he was an unfulfilled talent at the Tiges, he had the ability but wasn't getting it together on a consistant basis. I see the same with Clark, a good pick up who will develop into a very important player at our club.

To lock in to a long term deal with Cloke would cost us too much and hamstring our ability to find other players and retain players who would be much more valuable to us, besides if it means having David around the club we can do without him.

Denhams line of thinking is way different to mine, he thinks we are way off the pace, I don't. I like you believe we can turn things around quickly it's just that I think we are better off developing our own. We pick up Viney in this draft and if we can pick up someone like Toumpas to add with Grimes, Gysberts, Jones, Trengove, Blease, Taggert and co. we will be ok. Sheahan is the wildcard by the way, keep an eye on this rookie, very athletic tall with top level kicking skills both sides.

[DEE fence 5,007]

Am I the only one that misses Neitz, Schwarz, Lyon, (even Earl Spalding) standing in the forward line (yes I know they weren't all together at the same time but frequently pairs of them were), knowing that we had a Gorilla for a contested marking forward was something you could take for granted with the Dee's . Cloke's contested marking ability is gold dust. I am happy to leave it to the coach to make the final call, as I think he has the best perspective on what makes Travis tick and whether he would suit us, but that said, grab him. With Templeton and Moore, they had already had injuries so their cards were marked (Moore did get a Brownlow though so I felt we got value with that recruitment) Geelong has always had a few big units in Mooney and Hawkins and Ottens running around I don't think matching Clark and and Cloke would be a mistake. Cook is a project and I hope he comes good but Cloke now would do all the right things, including making us an instant threat. And you can't tell me that it wouldn't annoy the cr@p out of every pies fan in the world. Jurrah crumbing off these two would also be cool.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Travis may learn a life lesson here, that his old man isn't as smart as he thinks he is.

Might find he has to leave a club he loves because of dads pride.

"We want 5 years or nothing." is an aggressive stance.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

He's headed for a northern suburbs club where he can enjoy the local pasta according to my mail.

Big offer, can't refuse that blows all offers out of the water.

Don't know how they do it but they always manage to fit players in their salary cap.

Perhaps he thinks he'll be reunited with Mick?!

[rjay 24,917]

Am I the only one that misses Neitz, Schwarz, Lyon, (even Earl Spalding) standing in the forward line (yes I know they weren't all together at the same time but frequently pairs of them were), knowing that we had a Gorilla for a contested marking forward was something you could take for granted with the Dee's . Cloke's contested marking ability is gold dust. I am happy to leave it to the coach to make the final call, as I think he has the best perspective on what makes Travis tick and whether he would suit us, but that said, grab him. With Templeton and Moore, they had already had injuries so their cards were marked (Moore did get a Brownlow though so I felt we got value with that recruitment) Geelong has always had a few big units in Mooney and Hawkins and Ottens running around I don't think matching Clark and and Cloke would be a mistake. Cook is a project and I hope he comes good but Cloke now would do all the right things, including making us an instant threat. And you can't tell me that it wouldn't annoy the cr@p out of every pies fan in the world. Jurrah crumbing off these two would also be cool.

Not my point, the point is that we got no team or club success by recruiting big names no matter how well they played. Big Carl is another example, no finals, no premierships. We don't need to blow our budget on a big star, lets build our club properly this time, it will turn around a lot quicker than most think.

[daisycutter 29,613]

Instead of this thread being titled "Cloke and Dagger" it could have equally been titled "Cloke and Daddy"

I'd only have Cloke at Melb if we could be guaranteed it didn't include his father

[Tim 3,418]

I'd only have Cloke at Melb if we could be guaranteed it didn't include his father

A "reverse Scully" clause, DC.

[DemonWA 3,933]

I was listening to Sports Central on Perth radio 6pr last night (3AW sister station). Brad Hardie said that the word on the street is that Pies have offered Cloake 3 years @ ~750,000 a year, Dockers @ 900,000, and Dee's 1.1 mill.

Then they also discussed how the demons seem to get into bidding wars with Freo and insinuated that it had something to do with Schwab and Connelly?! Think that’s a bit farfetched, but they seemed to think us making a play for Clark and now Cloake is an ego trip for Schwab against this old club

not sure if it has any merit

[rpfc 28,384]

I was listening to Sports Central on Perth radio 6pr last night (3AW sister station). Brad Hardie said that the word on the street is that Pies have offered Cloake 3 years @ ~750,000 a year, Dockers @ 900,000, and Dee's 1.1 mill.

Then they also discussed how the demons seem to get into bidding wars with Freo and insinuated that it had something to do with Schwab and Connelly?! Think that’s a bit farfetched, but they seemed to think us making a play for Clark and now Cloake is an ego trip for Schwab against this old club

not sure if it has any merit

lol

How pathetic are they?

Schwab wouldn't give a sh!t about the players Fremantle are after. And Neeld was the one that got us to go hell-for-leather to get Clark.

We are after him because he is the best in the game at what he does.

95 contested marks last year?! That's 4 a game!

He's an ugly bastard, but he can play footy.

[DemonWA 3,933]

lol

How pathetic are they?

Schwab wouldn't give a sh!t about the players Fremantle are after.

the west australian public only want to listen to stories if they have an element of eagles/dockers to them. Plus the WA footy public love to lay blame on schwab and connelly for anything they can

[rpfc 28,384]

the west australian public only want to listen to stories if they have an element of eagles/dockers to them. Plus the WA footy public love to lay blame on schwab and connelly for anything they can

Classy.

For all their faults - they brought relevance to Dockerland. Hope they [censored] it all away as Pavlich is nearing the end and Lyon plays a 'lock down, contested game' on a ground the size of an airport...

[DemonWA 3,933]

Classy.

For all their faults - they brought relevance to Dockerland. Hope they [censored] it all away as Pavlich is nearing the end and Lyon plays a 'lock down, contested game' on a ground the size of an airport...

the ferals from the port city dont like loosing at subi, they're allready calling the talk back lines complaining about why they got rid of harvey for Lyon etc. Probably similar case to the fans that were/are unhappy with Neeld

[olisik 4,060]

we could offer the same as freo and still get him due to location

[old dee 23,787]

the west australian public only want to listen to stories if they have an element of eagles/dockers to them. Plus the WA footy public love to lay blame on schwab and connelly for anything they can

Agree DemonWA how long have they been gone?

4 years?

Don't seem to be setting the world on fire how long can they blame them for their problems.

[old dee 23,787]

Classy.

For all their faults - they brought relevance to Dockerland. Hope they [censored] it all away as Pavlich is nearing the end and Lyon plays a 'lock down, contested game' on a ground the size of an airport...

Spot on and it bloody awful to watch

[DemonWA 3,933]

Agree DemonWA how long have they been gone?

4 years?

Don't seem to be setting the world on fire how long can they blame them for their problems.

yes but in the same way as people on Demonland are still blame Danniher for not investing in youth soon enough, or our recruitment from 5 years ago and Bailey's coaching for our current woes, Connely and Scwhab are the whipping boys for Freo supporters.

[old dee 23,787]

yes but in the same way as people on Demonland are still blame Danniher for not investing in youth soon enough, or our recruitment from 5 years ago and Bailey's coaching for our current woes, Connely and Scwhab are the whipping boys for Freo supporters.

I have never blamed Daniher he had a team that made a GF, wisdom at the time was he just needed a couple of top up players and we could pull off a GF win.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

But you are probably correct.

[rpfc 28,384]

yes but in the same way as people on Demonland are still blame Danniher for not investing in youth soon enough, or our recruitment from 5 years ago and Bailey's coaching for our current woes, Connely and Scwhab are the whipping boys for Freo supporters.

As someone who complains about recruitment, and development of those recruited, from 2000 to 2004 - those picked in those drafts are the established stars of the game of today. I feel entitled to criticise and wonder.

But I often feel entitled...

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I was listening to Sports Central on Perth radio 6pr last night (3AW sister station). Brad Hardie said that the word on the street is that Pies have offered Cloake 3 years @ ~750,000 a year, Dockers @ 900,000, and Dee's 1.1 mill.

Then they also discussed how the demons seem to get into bidding wars with Freo and insinuated that it had something to do with Schwab and Connelly?! Think that’s a bit farfetched, but they seemed to think us making a play for Clark and now Cloake is an ego trip for Schwab against this old club

not sure if it has any merit

Its a nice thoughts but neither of them have a say in the running of the FD, contracts and recruiting will be upto Neeld, Viney and Harrington atm and a few others.

Do love that Cloke and Clark are exactly what the dockers need though

[Hannibal 5,814]

No we're not, but you learn from them...and by the way have a look at Carlton and to a lesser extent GC. Judd and Ablett, both clubs are way to conscious of their star recruits and it effects their teams. When Geelong recruited Ottens he was an unfulfilled talent at the Tiges, he had the ability but wasn't getting it together on a consistant basis. I see the same with Clark, a good pick up who will develop into a very important player at our club.

To lock in to a long term deal with Cloke would cost us too much and hamstring our ability to find other players and retain players who would be much more valuable to us, besides if it means having David around the club we can do without him.

In the main I agree, as I'm also in favour of developing from within and said so during a PM with another poster recently. But I'm also in favour of assessing opportunities on their individual merits. Templeton and Moore were failed moves, despite the latters Brownlow, but when you say "you learn from your mistakes", it's too simplistic. Lockett went to Sydney and played in a GF, Greg Williams went to Carlton and won a flag, Barry Hall got his act together and Sydney wouldn't have won the 2005 flag without him. Much depends on how high you rate Cloke. I rate him very highly.

The bottom line for me is can we become a premiership threat with Travis Cloke in the forward-line within the next 5 years ? And I'd make any decisions with that premise in mind. Flags aren't won easily and after such a premiership drought it would be remiss of the club not to consider their options. It all gets back to a chance at a flag, well for me anyway.

You say we'd "hamstring" our ability to retain and find other players. Would we ? This is part of the assessment. No-one would advocate selling the farm for just one player, but it may be possible to get Cloke and manage the rest of our list accordingly. As supporters we're guessing.

Btw, when assessing the Cloke option you also said "and retain players who would be much more valuable to us". What do you mean by "much more valuable to us" ? The last time I looked we didn't have a player on our list that was "much more valuable" than a 25 year old 196cm/110 kilo, 70 goal a year key forward. I appreciate that you're speculating 4-5 years down the track, but lists aren't static. The list will keep evolving and our ability to meet players requirements in a successful culture should be manageable. There won't be new "franchise" teams offering bucket loads and most players don't want to leave successful clubs, which is why luring Cloke is probably unlikely.

I stumbled across a post today I made on Demonland in 2006. Most supporters at the time expected we were in for success in the years 2007-2009. That now seems laughable, but my point is that one should never look too far ahead. There are times when an opportunity comes along that may place you far closer to a flag than you'd otherwise be and my advice would be to at least look at the opportunity versus cost.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Instead of this thread being titled "Cloke and Dagger" it could have equally been titled "Cloke and Daddy"

I'd only have Cloke at Melb if we could be guaranteed it didn't include his father

I actually have a weird sort of begrudging respect for Cloke Snr the way he goes into bat for his sons.

Just goes to show ... you don't need a glossy sounding company name (Flying Start, Elite Sports Whatever etc) and a pretty girl at a front desk to extract a good deal from a club.

Thieves in suits agents are.