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Wow ? and to think some people hassle me on here for certain posts. This one is right up there... How about The MFC take responsibility for itself and actually learn to fight for the most beneficial outcomes....

They handed over a profitable football club with a finals ready list. they 100% did their job. and i think we should all be extremely grateful because people so easily forget how bad things were under Mark Neeld.

I could care less about the Neeld thing. And i don't mind his criticism of the club. All power to him. A terrific servant for the club and he has more that earned the right to knock us. What i mind is that he is a paid professional analyst who is rubbish at that job. I don't care how he 'feels' about the dees. Not in that role anyway. Maybe down the pub over a few beers, but not on a show that is supposed to offer some level of professional analysis, requiring some level of professional detachment. His comments sounded like a fan boy whose feelings had been hurt, who had been let down. If he truly believes last year was an aberration, do some basic research and back up that opinion with some facts. Do some work rather than waffle on. He's supposedly 'thought about it long and hard' and gives no substance to his argument. At all. Not single rational argument to back his opinion. That's the best he can do after thinking long and hard? I mean c'mon. Browny tried hard to get him to expand on his thoughts, for example asked him about the quality of the midfield. But got nothing from Gary. Embarrassing stuff. In all seriousness he sounded like many posters on Demonland. The difference is he is getting paid to have an informed view and make rational, well argued assertions. Cold, hard criticism? You are pretty easily pleased Steve. Personally i prefer a bit more rigor in my analysis. Each to their own i suppose.

A quality back six unit can only be formed when the individuals comprised play a significant amount of game-time together. May and Lever have played what, three games together? We need them to play every game possible together and that goes for Jetta, Hibberd and Frost too (if he's going to play that third tall). IMO it would be absolutely ludicrous to play May forward with a handful of games to go when we're sitting 17th on the ladder.

Perhaps this is part of the explanation for our inconsistency within and between games (notwithstanding injuries skill and game plan factors) Men playing boys... (if you look at every clubs senior list of the number of players they have born before 1994 that is are 26 or older) .. you would get a league ladder like this.. Pies and Cats 20 Hawks and Roos 19 Eagles and Crows 18 Giants and Port 17 Freo 16 Tigers and Swans 15 Bulldogs Bombers and Saints 14 Suns 13 Lions and Blues 12 Dees 11 (and so every Man in the Dees team is critical but if 5 of them Jetta, Vanders, May, Garlett, Melksham and Lewis don’t play many games ... we are in trouble) or you could look at it from the other side of the street and say it’s not just age but experience that is number of players wha have played more than 100 games (lists as of today)... and the expected ladder would be... Pies and Hawks 17 Roos 16 Cats, Eagles, Crows and Port 15 Tigers and Bulldogs 14 Giants 13 Bombers, Swans, and Saints 12 Lions 11 Freo and Dees 10 Blues 9 Suns 8 perhaps there’s a correlation of sorts between these two ladders and the Dees season.. perhaps it says don’t go to the draft but get some mature footballers..

If we could just kick the thing through the big sticks, we’d have been spared a few headaches. Who is our goalkicking coach? Do we have one? Get Saty on board for all I care. Just get someone. Anyone. Lesson 1 - Wind: what is it and how does it affect my kick?

I've said my piece many times over the last two years regarding our list, so @titan_uranus has either missed reading those contributions or hasn't been bothered which is why he believes I haven't provided detail. Not my prob. I don't wish to comment on every aspect of the club because in many areas we are doing just fine. I have concerns with our list and as of this year, Goodwin. For three years, I have always been of the belief that we are a noticeably unbalanced and poorly skilled side compared to most others and therefore very one-dimensional in the way that we play and how we're instructed to play. Last year in June, I responded to Saty with the post below as he was (as always), taking a very relaxed approach to our losses and just generally toeing the company line. "Here's a question. If the players had 'learnt' from bombing the ball long against stronger sides who apply strong pressure, then we'd have rectified it after round 1 when we beat Geelong 64 to 41 in the inside 50 count yet lost the game by 2 points. What's your answer? Against Hawthorn we won the count 54 to 53 yet lost to them by 67 points. Against Richmond and Collingwood we were comprehensively beaten up around the ball being smashed in clearances and possession chains out of stoppages resulting in scores due to opposition heat. We nearly always gave the ball up under pressure. Against Port, we smashed them in inside 50's yet lost the game by 10 points. Again. Pressure. Like you, I can see a lot of positives within the group and I know there's a lot of growth and potential there with our core group of 23-24 year olds. But unlike you, I'm completely aware that these patterns emerge because of a team deficiency that can only be changed by additions to our squad that will give us a better balance and blend of attributes. " The way that we lose games to disciplined sides is no mystery at all to me. Goodwin has shown a complete lack of flexibility regarding our list and hasn't done nearly enough to address what have become obvious trends in the way we lose games. I also posted this after our queens Birthday loss to Collingwood last year: "I've tried hard not to post since Monday's loss, allowing for some time to view the game on TV, (having been there live) and to watch closely on what went on at the coal face which is where the game was lost. First off, it's clear as day that Buckley went to town on the first quarter of the bulldogs game and would have shown his players and said, "look what happens when you pressure Melbourne to this level". Props to him, we couldn't handle it at all and they maintained that level of intensity for the entirety of the game which was impressive. Why were or levels of intensity and pressure not at theirs given its what we've built our entire brand on? Buckley also exposed us in a couple of areas within the midfield. Having a contested heavy, one dimensional midfield group who are all natural ball chasers/inside players can be a double edged sword. When we're on, playing with intensity and most importantly are 'clean' in the contest, we look really good. If the opposition put pressure us at the coal face and nullify Gawn's taps then we look slow and reactionary given the types of players we have playing as half forwards and wings. As an example, if you watch Harmes closely in patches when he's on the wing, you'll see how hard he finds it to sit back from the contest and trust that a team mate would win the ball. Some of his efforts when he decided to chase the ball were very poor as he had no impact and it allowed for his opponent to sit back on the outside and become an option in space. Too many times this happened, and Collingwood had a much better spread of midfielders both inside and outside. Sometimes I wonder what instruction is given to players like Harmes and Brayshaw when they play on the wing and or if they're listening? Both players played their under age years as inside mids with Harmes having rests forward. Unfortunately at this stage, if the opposition get on top in that area, we don't really seem to have another plan due to our personnel through through the midfield. I noticed Goodwin tried to throw Hogan in there again and for me, that's just clutching at straws as he is not a midfielder and cannot play that position effectively. Watch some of his efforts and you'll see. Whilst there are other areas of the ground we can tinker with, like the Vince and Lewis in the same backline conundrum, I thought I'd concentrate on the midfield as it's our strength. Bringing Tyson in is not an answer for me. Unless you're taking one of our starting mids out which there's no need yet imo. We need to get back to starting the game with real intensity and being clean with that first possession. Pederson whilst strong in the air, doesn't provide the same defensive pressure as Smith or Weideman. I would bring Smith back in. Other than that, keep the same side. The only way we beat Port over there is by playing to our strength and smashing them at the coal face. Oh, and Petracca needs to start in the middle. Needs a rocket. " The way in which we lost to Collingwood^, Hawthorn and Richmond last year were eerily similar to how we lost to West Coast in the Prelim. The same can be said for losses in 2017. There's a trend. And now this year, with a whole range of other influencing factors such as an extensive injury list, poor off-season pre-season numbers, poor depth and Goodwin playing the same squad with the same personnel lining up in the same positions, we find ourselves sitting 17th on the ladder. We had a one wood and when it is taken away from us we have absolutely no other way of playing due to the makeup of our list. It's a real problem. Can it be addressed? Obviously. As I've also said many times, this might have been the year we needed for Goodwin to get his wake up call.

Yes, just as we get some stability down back, we send our prized defensive recruit forward... FMD this season can't end soon enough.

Blaming the past is a favorite demon supporter pastime. Right now, the blame sits no where else but with the current Football department, and by that i mean, coaches and players. They have failed miserably this year. and teh flat earthers around here can blame others but its on them. And they should know it.

IMO Roos would have delivered a flag by now or at least in 2019. But not his fault for current predicament.

we should do a "port adelaide" and have these games declared as away games........

Pot kettle? When was the last time you went into depth about anything? Huh? If we've got one thing going for us it's our effort. Collingwood's injuries have made them play worse than they could, which is sort of what's happened to us. Collingwood's done a better job of it though, but I don't subscribe to the argument that because one club is capable of adjusting to injuries then all clubs should be able to. However, I also don't subscribe to the argument that we can put our 2019 down to injuries and nothing else. Based on the football we're playing. There isn't that much between us and the sides above us. Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. It's been argued by a number of posters in this thread, convincingly, fairly and with reason and statistics. You just don't like it. It's possible that 2018 was the peak of our growth. It's also possible that 2019 is an aberration. Both are arguable. Based on the four previous years of linear growth, I'm more than happy to back in the latter argument against yours. But of course, we won't know for sure until we see 2020.

STMJ, surely you've seen since the bye particularly in the last month the players trying to play at a slower tempo and maintain possession a little more. Problem is very hard to change completely mid season what's engrained and when put under heavy pressure they revert back to what they are accustomed to. The fast moving bash crash chais football needs older hardened bodies with several pre seasons under the belt I think we'll see a mix of both as we move forward and the players being capable of adapting to both with more experience at this level

Roos and Jackson were both appointed for a limited time, after the AFL intervened. We were lucky to have them both for the time we did. The foundations were laid by them, and its now up the the replacements to follow through. None of what is happening this year is their fault. Nothing.

And Frost needs all the compliments he can get! LOL (Although, May wasn't too complimentary to poor ole Frosty a coupla weeks back when Frosty pulled one of his brain fades!)

They understand it, but they reject it as it doesn't align with their feelings (anger, disappointment etc.). It's because of the way our brains have evolved to work. As Daniel Kahneman says, "We are much better storytellers than we are logicians."

I think Goodwin should, and will, have some learnings from this year, I suspect about adopting more of a tempo approach within games and in relation to playing players in their natural positions. That said, there is absolutely no doubt that we have been cruelled by injuries throughout the year. It seemed to me that the other On The Couch panel members realise this, and they still believe we are a top 4-6 team - they simply allowed Lyon to have his rant. I expect it was all quite pre-meditated and that the show’s producers love the debate it has generated. The reality is that we should’ve beaten the team that the panelists on the same program stated were favourites for the flag the day earlier and, but for profligate kicking would’ve beaten, albeit with a forward line consisting of Harrison Petty, Bailey Fritsch and Jordan Lewis, and having one of our key mids out injured for the entire second half. There’s a bit of D Trump hyperbole to Lyon’s rant - but, as we all know, populist rants are super compelling to the masses who love that sort of rhetoric. I’m backing Goodwin in. Would be good to bring in some new high quality assistant coaches though in the off season IMO (some of whom I expect will be available).

Welcome to Demonland, Perty!

The young firecracker has signed a 1 year extension today according to Mitch Cleary.

Thanks 'steve', I happen to agree with you on many of these points. I've posted elsewhere that the Prelim should have been a big wake up call and as you've shown the writing was on the wall even earlier. Let's hope Goodwin has received the message loud and clear this year otherwise we're in for a world of pain next year.

Lever, May, Hibberd, Frost, Jetta, Lockhart, Salem and co need some continuity and game time together. The remaining rounds are invaluable in ensuring that we hit Round 1 2020 with all guns firing.

Well spoken Binman. There's a narrative run by danny Frawley on the weekend the we have dodged scrutiny. Lazy and unoriginal commentary plain and simple. I believe we lacked experience in pre season planning following a late sept finish but the club will learn from this. Its been 20 years since the last time.

Not adverse to throwing him forward in patches but we recruited him as a defender, he possibly has the best skill of our defenders (Salem in front) he needs to find his place in the team, he needs the next 5 weeks to gel with Lever and co. We need to use this time wisely to settle our defence. He is the cornerstone of that now, he compliments Frost beautifully.

Is this like when Frawley was played forward to 'experiment' even though he was off to Hawthorn - and it aided us getting higher draft picks?

As I and others have been at pains to point out this is plain wrong and to be honest is a really unhelpful narrative to be pushing as a dees fan. Why? Because it is wrong. You made that assertion a fee weeks ago and I posted the link of the article from may with the games missed by best 22 through injury ladder. I'm not sure if you read it but it showed we were hit hardest at that stage by a big, big margin. And things have got much worse since then. If that ladder was done now we would be so far ahead of second it is not funny. And as noted by wrecker45 the injury issue has to be seen in context of our shocking preseason and resulting lack of a strong fitness base (by the by the tigers had a great preseason, as did not coincendally all the teams in the top 5. Saints didn't and have struggled all season. Go figure). Caro should stick to footy politics if she doesn't understand that. Sure, debate the actuall impact of a poor preseason and injury. But please don't misrepresent how bad both have been for the dees. As I say it is an unhelpful narrative and just feeds all those lazy footy media people who love to reinforce such myths.

Our current wing options: Fritsch 69% kicking efficiency (KE), turnovers 3.8 Metres Gained 330 Score Involvements 3.8 Contested Possesion rate 31.7 C Wagner 60.5% KE turnovers 3.2 MG 193 SI 4 CP 40.3 Stretch 65.8 % DE turnovers 2.6 MG 268 SI 3.6 CP 33.1 Baker 61.7 % DE turnovers 4.2 MG 333 SI 3.5 CP 26.8 Not metioned: KK and Vanders - both chronic injuries Langdon 58.9% KE, turnovers 4.6 Metres gained 412 SI 4.1 Contested Possession rate 30.2 Brad Hill 60.3% turnover 5.2 MG 481 SI 5.8 Contested possessions 22.2 Is Langdon a good kick - no, is his kicking efficiency and turnover rate significantly worse than other guys in his position - no. Here's a list of wingmen who have a higher average metres gained than him this year: Whitfield, Hill, Henderson, Smith, Atkins, Robinson, Fiorini and just Polec. He's ahead of Tom Phillips, Sheed, McCluggage, Hunter, Billings, Seedsman, Duncan and so on. He won't solve all our problems but having a wingman who can cover off defensively and then run and get the ball moving will make life so much easier for our half backs and inside midfielders. His hard running at speed more than makes up for his kicking limitations and I really think he'd make a nice compliment for Fritsch and Baker as a wing/forward rotation.

I have no issue with Garry Lyon and David Schwarz giving their opinions about the current predicament that the Melbourne Demons are in. However, I rate David's opinions higher than Garry's as I consider Garry a very rude and selfish person from my past brief interactions when I was a lot younger as a teenager back in the late 1990's attending Melbourne Demons Family Day events. Nevertheless, rather than just outright criticism it would be better if they gave back to the Melbourne Demons by being more involved at the Club either at Board level or Football department level. I know they have work and family commitments, but why not come by training once or twice a month and help out? They were both very talented forwards when they played for the Melbourne Demons. Why not come and help with goal-kicking practice or something like that? If you want to do something to change the Club around then be more involved. Anyway, that is just my 2 cents worth.

I looked at a similar range in another thread, mainly the % decrease in % and how it correlates with ladder position in a year after making finals. Only one team - Richmond in 2017 - with as significant drop as us this year was able to make finals a year after their own similarly major fall from grace. It is why it is integral the club acknowledges this and makes major changes asap. So many metrics paint a discouraging picture for 2020 but it's all historical. The odds are against us but we can turn it around. But it will come on the back of change. We won't succeed with the current plan and structure.

Not sure on this but maybe someone can confirm. With the current zones that have been put in place by the AFL Darwin is currently not zoned to any club. A lot of the big clubs are wrangling for it, for obvious reasons. I would think we would/should be negotiating it as part of our future agreement. We are the club putting in the effort so we should get some tangible benefit for doing the work.

We've been after Langdon for (at least) 3 years, if he's keen, I think we'll snare him. Bit of negativity on him recently, but the kid can play and still has his best years ahead of him.

it'll continue i believe the 'heart of the nation' game has been given a serious leg-up and genuine push by channel 7 in addition to the redtails / pinktails partnerhip and our academy it's also worth bearing in mind that the nt govt are our 'shorts sponsor' to the tune of in excess of $1m a year...and that's why we have to play up there too

I'm sure Mahoney will sell the farm for him, seeya later pick 2 lol. The other week he had 30 odd disposals with only 8 being effective if I read right, he should slot in nicely with our meat and potato butchers

Not as tiresome as the people who continually blame and bag Garry Lyon for everything that has gone wrong with the club whenever his name is mentioned

Richmond and West coast have more mature lists so they have greater depth to cover their injuries. Our depth is guys like Dunkley, Lockhart, Wagner x2 etc

Many during the week predict we'll get smashed by 10 goals. We lead into the last quarter, lose by just over 2 goals courtesy of an opposition goal from the worst decision of the game, lose Viney by half time , we're playing the reigning premiers and people still come on here and smash the coach and/or the team. Where is the perspective ?

I couldn't even tell you who some of those guys are. Tohill? Noble? Murphy? Kelly? Wells and Dunn are finished so can hardly count them. Wells has barely played for 3 years.

We've had to completely rebuild our list from 2014 onwards following the failed prior rebuilds. West Coast and Richmond began their builds in 2007-09. Who do we have left from back then Jones and Gawn? Yeah it's "our" fault (as in MFC) but it's not the fault of the current FD or coach. The list was stuffed under prior regimes and has been built and developed under this one. It's just the fact that we are still a young team and injuries to our key players will hit us harder until we have a mature list with decent depth.

Sure would have liked Cam Pedersen on the list this year. Stupid decision to delist him.

Todd Marshall from Port is gettable...

In reality we are extremely unlucky not to be in the bottom part of the eight. Have lost 5 games by 3 goals and under. Coulda shounda won any of these. With a fit squad, some confidence next year we win these games. Its never as good as it seems and its never as bad as it seems

It's not that this year or last year was an aberration. The problem is that it's Standard Operating Procedure for the MFC. Incremental improvements followed by mind bending drop offs. Wins against solid opposition to fold against the weaker. 2 finals wins and then hardly scoring in a prelim. Finishing 4th and dropping to 16th. That's what drives most supporters including Lyon crazy. He's just got a bigger forum than this to share his disgust. And I value his opinion on football above all the happy clappers around here.

He loves doing that. I flick past what he and 'bub have to say these days. It's not worth your time. It's the same thing over and over and over again. They think the club is scarred when it's them who are instead.

We've been over this in one of the many other threads in which you post your grandiose statement about how bad things actually are. We got better every year from 2014 to 2018. Averaging out our ladder position over that time is unrealistic, unfair and hides that truth.

Can we not start this stuff again? Always find it incredibly unfair when Dees fans smash a great of the club for trying to do a job he openly said he wasn't qualified to do, because his dying best mate begged him to do it.