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There is definitely no need for the world is ending, the sky is falling, we are the worst team ever, type of reactions. But I feel like some parts of Demonland have almost gone the complete opposite way. Like it is not politically correct to have a go when we perform badly, because we are doing better. Because after 12 years of being hot garbage, we are now an average team, and god we should be so happy and so greatful for that. Criticism is taken as a lack of appreciation or how far we have come, rather than a realistic view of how much further we still have left to go. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the only thing I care about, is premierships. I don't care for incremental improvements, sure I enjoy them and they give me hope, but to me just being in the 8 for the first 13 rounds, or just making finals, is not a win. I want us to play and win finals. I want us to be successful again. And until I see that we can be consistently successful, and perform consistently towards that ultimate goal, I will continue to be frustrated when we take backwards steps like we did yesterday. We all invest a lot emotionally and financially in the club, and we all have a right to vent (or not) after a loss, so long as we do it respectfully. I don't come on here looking for someone to tell me we will win a flag next year, I come here to share and listen to the opinions of others who share the same love and passion for the Dees as I do, but who might have differing opinions to me. Bottom line is, we all know [censored] and we all can do [censored] about the performance of our club. We are just here to talk crap and make ourselves feel better.

Yep I think you make a really good point ProDee about what we're doing right, which is often overlooked when we have such a disappointing loss. Our ability to win the inside ball and get enough supply is up there with the best in the competition. So we're clearly being well developed in that part of the game. But definitely some tinkering needs to be made in how we set up defensively when the opposition gain possession in and around our forward 50m, especially on wide grounds like the MCG. St Kilda's ability to move the ball up the ground time and time again without pressure and isolate 1v1s or 2v2s in its forward 50 was an absolute joke. And it has happened enough times over the last two years to be cause for concern. In my view we would have comfortably beaten Geelong and St Kilda if we could've defended their rebound better. Geelong went at 66% for scores per inside 50 (off the charts) and St Kilda at 58% (ridiculous for a bottom three side). Win those games and we would be sitting second at 10-4, with the footy public lauding what we're doing. Arguably we should've also beaten Port taking us equal top. It shows two things - 1) this is a game of really fine margins and 2) we are doing a lot of things right. Even as we stand here at Round 15, we are effectively only improved defensive transition off being a top 4 side.

While our backline definitely has issues we lost this game through the middle of the ground. St Kilda went to school on our QB game and used run and overlap in a swarm once they gained possession. Until we can defend through the middle of the ground we won't get anywhere. But where I'm more positive than most is that aspects of our game are top notch. And they're aspects that are not easy to get right. Contested possession, clearance work and the ability to get repeat F50 entries are areas all clubs aspire to excel in, but it's not easy to achieve. I do think we should be able to develop far better defensive structures through the middle of the ground. But we're running out of time. Clearly, Goodwin takes the blame for this, but I trust he can turn it around.

Our game plan sucks at the MCG. Play way too high. Too often our weakest players are left one out in vulnerable positions - our poor defensive structures are being exploited by oppo coaches. Our defence is easily the worst part of our game. Same as last year. Too many here moaning about criticism of our defence and the players in it but the stats don;t lie. We let through the most scores of any side in the top 8 from i50s. One on one we are useless in defence. Last year we were 18th for scores by opp'n inside 50 and defensive one on ones. Nothing has changed. Blind Freddie can see that we have few winners there. Jetta and Hibbo play good games often but virtually no others. Salem can be creative but our talls are useless. Carlisle looked like a superstar. Gawn excluded, our mids go missing regularly. Too much left to Clarry. Tyson is a bust. I love Jones but his days in the centre square are over. Maybe he needs to be our sweeper in defence. Yes we win the clearances generally but we are not damaging teams, And on turnovers there is little or no defensive coverage. Our set ups at bounces are bewildering. Our future 'stars' Hogan, Petracca are too often unsighted. Overrated big time. Our fwd crumbers are like Hannan dont do anywhere near enough. Spargo will surely replace him. Fritsch is being used to defend too often. Melkshams form has fallen off a cliff. What TF is our fwd plan? It looks like a one trick pony at the moment. Get the ball in as quickly as possible? Great for our i50 stats but hopeless for efficiency. And there is no coordination between crumbers and flyers. Hardy anyone over the back allowing defenders free reign to clear the ball from our fwd 50. Aside from Gawn and TMac it appears there are few players that can take a contested mark. Our body work in marking contests is generally appalling and time after time you could see our players jogging through the corridor as Aints players swept the ball up the wings - just like Collingwood. Our season is as good as over. We can't defend so it matters little if we make finals. We will go nowhere playing finals the way we are playing. Roos must cringe at our defensive efforts. The Swans with their 10 or 11 rookie listed players nail their defensive system more often than not. We have no idea - Chaplin has a lot to answer for as does Goodwin. Goodwin seems to have no idea how to fix things and is desperately slow to react in game. Lots of people here squealing and jumping down the throat of anyone who dared suggest caution after winning six in a row against the bottom sides but the Emperor has no clothes now and the reality is we are a very average footy side with a lot of overrated talent. Our leaders (Max excluded) are a joke and trying to defend the players after this effort just demonstrates your fan boi status.

Seriously what do you really expect from such a corrupt and compromised organisation as AFL and their henchman at match review. Blatant double standards. I will never forget Bernie being reduced to vomiting after some north thug gut punched him which was also ignored. Such a bunch of bloody blatant hypocrites.

It’s easy in such a loss to forget how immense Maxxy was - one of the most complete games I’ve seen from a ruckman in my nearly 60 years of watching footy. I also love watching Fritsch - the silkiest player we have had since dear old Tulip.

I think our problems with defensive running and connection inside 50 have been exacerbated by some selection and role issues. I don't think Tyson can play that wing role, he has to play inside mid or not at all. I think we missed Fritsch in that wing role yesterday. I would have omitted Tyson, retained Bernie and moved Salem up to the wing with Fritsch. That gives us more defensive run and much better delivery into F50. I see Joel Smith covered the most metres and had 9 intercepts which is promising for such an inexperienced player. I was in favour of bringing Petty in for structure and as Goodwin said , the problems were further up the field. We need 2 talls in defence, Frost will never be a premiership player, just like Bugg - move on. Dec Keilty was out the previous week, Petty was the logical choice - I hope we persist with him against Freo. Defensive running is supposed to be ANB's bread and butter - he's a very honest trier who gets the best out of himself - I admire him but I'm not a fan. 1 tackle. Stretch may be the preferable option - he has great running power and has some good form at Casey which should be rewarded. It's a tough ask because he has been playing as starting mid at Casey and has been playing well and we'd be asking him to come in as defensive forward. JKH had the same experience last year and really struggled. I'm a Hannan fan but he had a shocker and has to go back to Casey. Spargo, Kent or Garlett are the potential replacements. Jeffy would be worth a try - 7 tackles at Casey is a promising return. In: Vince, Stretch, Garlett Out: Tyson, ANB, Hannan Earlier in the year we were scoring a lot of goals from close range with players sharing the ball. Opposition has woken up to this and defends that area strongly. We need to try scoring from longer range. I'm very positive about our prospects - we had a very young and inexperienced side again on Sunday, we'll definitely get there. The thing we supporters have control of is our own emotions.

I have thought and thought about this and for the life of me i cant understand some stuff whats going on, and i am confident enough in my knowledge of the game to raise them seriously, and i am happy for the answers from anyone, i am not being a smart alec, i am genuinely perplexed. ere are my thoughts: We get the ball inside 50 more than any other team and we play 3 talls and 3 flankers We are the only team in the comp that currently does not play a traditional small forward, yet we refuse to do anything other than bomb the ball to the same place and watch our talls and flankers fly for the ball.. now if this is the plan, wouldn't it be smart to say to a small forward, just be at the base oft he pack, it will come to ground, you will get chances, in fact i would go so far as to say that playing as a small forward in Melbourne's side might be the easiest of all positions. you wont have to go looking for crumbs, they will be there almost every time in to goes inside 50. its doing my head in. Goodwin and his "genius" mates in the coaches box need to stop trying to be smart with Tom McDonald and Jesse Hogan. McDonald must play out of the square, Hogan as a CHF (or vice versa) McDonald strength is he leads towards the ball. how can he do that on the wing? Hogan looks like the last 3 weeks his role is to play between the kicker and the pack.. in no mans land. Oscar McDonald has had a good year, but he is still a liability down there..he need support, how they selected Petty is actually mind boggling and i know hindsight is wonderful, but why the rush to play the kid, whats wrong with letting a key back develop like we do with key forwards. And i have been a fan of Lewis, yes he does infuriate alot of fans, but i have backed him in always, but i think he is out of form and has checked out. Last week when there was blue at half time and he was walking off getting IV by Ch7, i hated that, i would have rather him brush the IV off and run in and back his team. that was a red flag for me. I think his time is up, but what will matter is if Goodwin has the balls to drop him. And why one of our leaders and natural ball winning competitors was tagging someone while our other number 1 ball winner was being tagged is beyond extraordinary, and how it took so long for that to be released even worse. Just some of my frustrations right there, if anyone has the answers that would be great. And for whats it worth i have always thought we are a 10th-6th paced side, not because we are no good, but the comp is so even from 2nd-12th.. but we are blowing our chances again of even being 8th.. and that breaks me.

The Collingwood & Richmond losses were tolerable given that we were beaten by two very good sides, and didn't really drop our bundle under severe pressure. We should have beaten both Port & Geelong, but didn't take our chances. However, yesterday's game and the Hawthorn game were both disgraceful. In both cases it was a diabolical combination of disrespecting the opposition, overrating our own abilities, poor team selection, and woeful coaching and strategy. Gawn was quite outstanding, we got contributions from Fritsch, Harmes, Hibberd, Viney and Oliver, and that was about it. Hannan has been disgraceful for a month and should be at Casey. Melksham had one of his regular 'can't be stuffed days'. Weideman is not an AFL footballer, and almost certainly never will be. Ditto Smith (both of them actually). Lewis is lazy and should never be allowed to play as a loose man. Tyson is being played out of position. Jetta and T.McDonald were both clearly unfit and should not have played. Salem is a constant disappointment, and I would happily trade him for someone with some leg speed. Neal-Bullen still can't handle the heat. Our inability to get around a player who is struggling is just mind boggling. Petty was obviously struggling, but when did our senior players get over to him and try to help him out? Oliver was being scragged and molested all day, and nobody flew the flag for him. More than any other, Jones disappoints me in this respect. Yet again Goodwin did nothing, tried nothing to change the course of the game. T.McDonald had no impact on the game, so we could have put him to half back to help out Petty & O.McDonald. Hogan could have gone into the middle to get some touches in the first half. We didn't man up their loose players coming through the centre. Why not have Melksham run with Steven, or Hannan play across half back to get them in the game? The Casey game was pretty ordinary, but we clearly need to bite the bullet on a few players and give them 3 weeks to find their feet in the senior team. Garlett, Frost, Pedersen and Stretch are the obvious ones. I'd even consider Bugg if it was to do a tagging job.

Just one point Nasher! We played a side who have won 2 games and they just scraped home against GC. Everyone has a right to seriously vent after losing this one. This should of and must of been a win!!!

I think the talent pool is there, but because of the reluctance to draft mature age players, and the way the AFL club's use the reserves as development for draftees, the talent doesn't want to play there. The VFL isn't the next best group of players it is full of kids. There are better players in other leagues, who can't get a game at VFL because an 18 year bean pole first year draftee is keeping them out for "development" reasons. The only way I can see this being fixed is to run a separate AFL reserves comp, and increase the list sizes to 55+ (maybe a primary list of 35 for AFL, and a secondary list of 20 for reserves only). When drafting, Club's should be able to place a player on either list (with release clauses after x years for draftees who aren't promoted). Club's should then be able to upgrade off their secondary list for long term injuries, and should have first dibs to automatically elevate any secondary list players before the draft. Basically, by having a smaller primary list you couldn't afford to have lots of undeveloped kids. By having a larger secondary list that was available for upgrade or exclusive draft, out would encourage club's to retain the best tier two talent in the system to fill gaps.

I hate it when every week supporters who come here to vent, get told by some to get a grip because “it’s just a game” or “there’s more to life than footy”... it’s like telling a person having a panic attack to calm down. Soooo helpful. Years ago, nobody questioned the despair we felt. Now the new hipster [censored] on Demonland is for people to tell other people that we should appreciate the progress we’ve made, and stop complaining about poor performances. Relax man, drink a chai latte, things are fine. Because being mediocre is way better than being the worst team in history I guess. Bloody hell, there is a lot more to life than this game and this club, absolutely. But when I pay $600 a year, because I want to ensure I get finals tickets, and we literally have not made finals since I was a damn teenager (when I could drink the pain away without the 3 day hangover), then I will come here after a loss and respectfully tell you and your salt lamp to get stuffed. Now I gotta adult up and go to bed because I have an 80 hour work week coming up. Goddamn reality.

FMD. Bet Carlton are happy they didn't flick Kade Simpson after his first 3 games which were all zero possessions.

Sure, I understand that Lever going went really screwed us, but Frost and even a mature age recruit like Keiltey surely should have got a go first. There was no rush with Petty, whereas now is the time to put Frost under pressure in the role we recruited him for and see how he copes. I know he is NQR, but we need to find that out for sure so we can decide whether he should stay or go. Playing Petty doesn't tell us anything about him, other than he isn't ready to play a key position defensive role in the AFL, and nor should he be. He is 18 for goodness sake. Being a key defender is one of the hardest roles in footy. Omac came in and played with Garland and TMac, Tmac had Frawley and Dunn etc etc. Poor Petty had nobody there to support him. It left him vulnerable, it left Omac vulnerable, and the whole thing was a shambles. I would have almost forgiven the decision, had Goodwin thrown TMac back in the last 15 minutes to help weather the storm, as we were making our comeback (after we kicked 2 in a row). Instead Petty was left one out, got outmarked, and the game was basically gone.

The biggest issue on demonland is people going from thread to thread and potting others' opinions, at least bring a decent discussion, good or bad, play the ball not the man. Passion in footy is a wonderful thing, football clubs are built around it and we should let it be, people handle things differently. Let them have their say, take it or leave it.

On D-land always MFCSS will win Rage will trump reason Like rain on a pond Inner calm will be broken Those weak f***in c****!!!!!

If you understand how it is we WON'T select Jeffy ( and others) you'll go a long way to getting at the heart of the matter. This game ( as have others ) was lost before it started. Its not like we have a rubbish list. We don't. Theres quite enough talent , raw and experienced, to make more than a fist of any game against anyone. So why don't we ? Well...the best of ingredients will still result in slop if you don't have a good recipe...or decent cook......and if you have neither....?? Is it a coincidence that since the seasons mid point we've fallen away ? In a sense it is because its given every other club a good opportunity to see our one dimensional approach and they're all now applying their own form of remedy. Many here expressed concern prior to the game about our structures, about how easy it's becoming to stifle our scoring....and how easily you can counter against our 'defence'.... again all before the bounce. It was like we wrote a script and the game emulated it Our fwd 50 is a mess.....by design ...not the players so much ( though a few dont help things much ) Our back 50 is quite often non existent...as its all up the ground !! Our middle is like a engine roaring away with a stuffed transmission...a lot going on and going nowhere. I have to say it again. Structures, game plan, roles, instructions....this is all the Coachs' doing.

After tipping both losses against Colonwood and Port, I had us winning all the next 3... Saints Freo and Doggies. Well, that serves me right for arrogantly believing we were a better team than the last couple of games indicated. What right did i have as a MFC supporter to expect that our team was better than a rabble who had only won 2 games this year... I thought we would win comfortably, mainly because StK are rubbish and we are not. Now i would not be remotely surprised if we get rolled by a depleted Freo. OFC i also now expect the Dogs to crush us "Out the back" when we return to Victoria because we wont have any "run" in our legs. Trust = destroyed. Lose either of the next 2 games and we can kiss finals goodbye AGAIN. To be still losing games to a team like StKilda is [censored] disgusting. Hang your head in shame MFC.

I don’t begrudge him that- we cast him off. If Howe, Frawley, Scully, etc. then that’s a different story...

I'm more peeved that we didn't get a free kick. Also wasn't the only time Oliver got hit at a stoppage.

Behind the play At stoppage Fist punch Body Medium impact 2- weeks with 1-week I’m guilty plea a fine is a joke !!!!!! Sums up the ridiculously bad umpiring and those in control !!

Jack Steele was on SEN today and said that they saw how we had been beaten by the Pies and Port. They knew if they used their pace and players worked hard to create overlap, they would beat us. They did and they did. He found it pretty simple as to what they had to do. My question is, what did our coaching panel do to counter what other sides and presumably us as well knew, as to how we can be beaten. All I can see, is that we actually made it harder for us to win, by going even taller and slower.

Understand your thinking but Petty was completely lost and looks a long way off playing senior footy. Was really looking forward to seeing this kid but it was one of the most embarrassing debuts I have ever witnessed. I am all for giving kids a proper go but we just cant afford to leak goals like we did on Sunday as each time the ball was directed in the Petty direction he did not know what to do or got stage fright and fumbled, partly due to his slow decision making. He was beaten virtually every time whether in the air or on the ground. It got to the stage where I sensed that his own team mates did not want to hand pass or kick to him. We simply cannot afford to carry him in another match this season. Particularly, alongside OMcD. Having said that, one does feel that whatever the selection, its a bit like plugging holes in the Titanic.

Out: Hannan, Petty, Tyson In: Spargo, Keilty, Stretch If they're not going to use Tyson as an inside mid there's no point playing him. I have doubts on Stretch, but he's been playing well and might now make a better fist of AFL level footy. Petty isn't ready. At 23 years of age and with our defensive issues if they don't give Keilty a go now they never will. He's strong, calm and a great mark. I suspect he hasn't been seen as an intercept defender and more suited to Oscar's role, which is why he's been overlooked, but right now he's a better option than Petty. Let's see what he's got. Spargo will make us a better team. We've missed his run and footy smarts. But in my view, this hasn't been a personnel issue, it's been more a system issue. We aren't not defending well enough through the middle of the ground, which then exposes individuals, as well as other parts of the ground. That said, I reckon these changes make us better. For now anyway.

So when do we find out if Frost needs to stay or go? Why do we keep players on our list, if when all other options are gone, we don't play them? If Frost was stinking it up in the VFL I would almost agree, but he has been playing well and knocking the door down. He really stood out in the game I saw on Saturday, which was a high pressure tight contest against a quality VFL side. Don't get me wrong, he makes me cringe as much as anyone, but this is season on the line stuff. We don't win this game and we can kiss finals goodbye. Now is not the time to give a kid who isn't ready, playing in a vitally important position, another go to make sure his confidence isn't shattered. The coaches need to do that off the field, and take responsibility for it.

Always liked Dunny. Very sad news.

Yeah I agree. Dear Harry, I'm sorry you were thrown in the deep end and you had no support. As you can see from the fans, we wish you all the best.

A past player that I think we all admired in how he stuck with it... such bad luck

For me, Tiges are the formula TMac back Out: Hannan, Petty, Smith, Weideman, Lewis (but won't happen) In: Vince, Jeffy, Billy and Spargo No one flies for marks in the F50 except for Jesse Petracca deep, Maxxy, stay out! Melksham at the 50 line, ANB and Harmes further in.... Crumbers, crumb

I think Frost's best is pretty good, but he is just wildly inconsistent. He is certainly better than Fletcher Roberts who already has a premiership medallion. IMO we need to play him for the rest of 2018 and hope he hits form at the right time of year.

We have to play smarter and take the game out of the maggots hands. We simply allowed them into the match by the way we played. If we are first to the ball, if we hit open players and don't cough up stupid mistakes in the contest, then we can't get pinged. The umpiring was atrocious and certainly kept them in it in the first half. It delivered them at least 5 goals. However, we have to learn to adjust and outplay them when we are getting the wrong end of the stick - because whining about it is getting us no where. The worst thing for me is how blatant the bias is. It was an absolute disgrace, but we have to be better than simply giving in to it. We will never get the Collingwood free run, or the 'crowd affirmation' of Adelaide and Perth. We just have to be better than it.

Yet again umpiring decisions let us down, but I don't see umpiring as big of a problem as last week. Last week I thought we got robbed as we played well enough (in fact much better than this week) but didn't get rewarded with 4 points due to poor umpiring decisions. This week we only have ourselves to blame as we played poorly which probably left ourselves open to poor umpiring in any case. Losing to a team with 2 wins on the board should NEVER be the umpires fault. How does one score 117 points and still lose a match? Our attack is potent but there are still issues prevalent as we continuously bombed in long balls which either got easily picked off or we had 2-3 players fly for it with no crumbing forwards. A lot of times this allowed Saints to settle and transition end to end and kill us (as well as insane turnovers and hospital handballs). Far from the slick inside 50 entries we managed to find in our run of 6 wins. Not sure if its an instruction from the coaching team, or whether the players actually don't have the ability to look for the short pass into the 50. Hogan is wasted playing further down the field. In the 4th quarter when Goody decided to let Hogan loose deep into our forward line he was causing a bit of a headache for the Saints. Why are we waiting until the 4th quarter when we're on the ropes to make these changes? Why does Goody persist with wasting our best mids on tagging the oppo? Seems like a very negative way to go to me. Especially when we have one of the best rucks in the comp and a steady supply why would we possibly want to waste an inside mid on tagging? We were losing clearances all day until the 4th quarter when Viney was released from tagging and the Saints were really struggling to deal with it. This whole tagging tactic has been a key factor in every one of our losses so far, and hasn't worked, so why keep using it? Finally, we concede 119 points to a team that has only won 2 games all year and struggle to average 70 odd points a game. If it wasn't for the late surge we were comprehensively embarrassed by a bunch of cellar dwellers. Our record on the MCG this season says all you need to know about our structure. There seems to be a pattern here from Goody. I genuinely think he is crazy, just loves to keep repeating the same thing over and over again even when it doesn't work for certain scenarios. It's like banging your head against a wall over and over again. Why play such a high forward press and expose our backline (especially an inexperienced backline). You would think after the first few times the Saints go end to end and goal we would react to that. Well Goody's idea of a reaction is throwing Fritsch in defence and keeping the same high press (insanity). All they had to do was kick sideways, spread and away they went. We have no adaptability to game conditions, and smells of pure arrogance and disrespect for the Saints. Goody, for a guy that repeats the mantra "we respect our opposition" clearly doesn't practice what he preaches. Then Goody blames it on the players not having qualities or habits ingrained in them. No Goody, this is not how it works. Maybe take some responsibility for your poor game plan and decisions first of all. The coach is meant to be a leader, not hanging out his troops to dry. I hate to single out any of our boys for the loss because they probably are made to look worse players than they are due to poor coaching decisions and structures allowing the opposition to play the way they do. Yesterday was a good example.

Dunny chose to break Roosy's defensive set plays by kicking a torp down the guts after a behind, only too watch it sail back over his head for a goal. He didn't play again for us. If you're going to defy the coach's instructions you'd better get something special out of it. He is a battling servant and by all accounts a ripping bloke. But I always thought he played the percentages to cover his man only, which suits another era of AFL. I recall him doing this repeatedly at Docklands vs Saints. It hung teammates out to dry everytime because he wouldn't leave his man to help. Different team and coach, different game plan, different player. Hope he recovers quickly. Long term I'd much rather have Omac, Lever and eventually, Petty. Small, skilled defenders with pace are what we need going forward.

"Former Western Bulldogs coach Terry Wallace believes Melbourne is beating themselves as much as anything at the moment." If there's anyone that would know anything about beating themselves, I'd imagine Wallace would be well up there...

Not that it was the issue with this decision, but one of my chief beefs these days is when a free kick is called and 99% of play stops, ball carrier keeps running (but only really in a half hearted way, expecting the free kick to be called back) and then the ump decides to call play on advantage, with the player 20m further down the feild and in miles more space than would normally be the case. ALWAYS happens more against us than for us!

There are reports that hes done an ACL and which is potentially season ending. Which is a huge blow for Dunn who was playing great footy and on the verge of playing his first ever finals series.. Which also leads me to my next question.. did we get rid of Dunn too easily? My opinion is yes we did! We put all our basket into developing Oscar as our number 1 defender, but yet got rid of a experience and hardened defender who could have guided him and helped with his development. I'm still unsure on Oscar.. said this yesterday but he made McCartin look like Wayne Carey at times.. just seems slow to react and once the ball hits the ground hes Ben Holland paced. All the best to Dunny btw, was always a favorite of mine and still is.

I'm as guilty as anyone for coming on here to rant after a loss like that. Having said that I do enjoy reading the rational input on here. In the moment its probably not what we want to hear but I'm definitely glad there are people here that can offer that in those moments.

It was a terrible loss yesterday. Hopefully it is the circuit breaker and Goodwin can realise he is making some dreadful errors. 1. We should be playing only two key forwards (Hogan and McDonald). Weideman will be a good player in time, but the balance of our side is being put out by playing all three. Either Spargo or Garlett needs to come in so that our forward pressure is high. 2. Tyson is not a winger. He is either in our best four inside midfielders or he is in the VFL. We need someone who can cover the ground on the outside, particularly defensively. 3. Frost must play in Lever's absence. Frost makes errors but he gives us some speed and athleticism out of defence. 4. The role of Lewis also needs to be considered. Can we win a flag with Lewis at half back? I doubt it. I know he is a smart player and generally good user, but he is a massive liability defensively. Vince is better defensively and not as slow, but he does not win as much ball and makes some brain fades. Wagner could be a better option than both.

After a good nights sleep I feel even more angry about this loss because it all came about due to stupidity. Clarries brain fade, 50 metre penalties, Lewis’ lazy kicks on the backline, Tyson’s kicking effiency at 38% for most of the match, Brayshaw not lowering his eyes, refusing to make Seb Ross accountable. Basically for the past 3 weeks we have been dumb and lazy and it will cost us dearly. So typical of this Club.

The knock on Melbourne circa 2016 and onwards was pure and simple, a lack of outside speed. Only a few posters here have been concerned with it over the journey. This was one critical reason that I cautioned against the Lewis trade: he was always going to make a slow team, even slower. With Frost and Hunt (pre-injury) playing for Casey, and then you have Lewis, Vince (up to Port game), Tyson and co playing ones, it baffles me. St.Kilda exposed our lack of defensive spread to the whole footy world yesterday. Expect all teams below us to take us on with play-on, switching, and rebound footy from defensive 50. Goodwin thinks its a lack of effort? Maybe guys like Harmes and Hogan don't run back to defend hard enough, but we don't have the capacity to defensively spread. We need speed behind the ball, not leadership.

This game will be our North in 2017 equivalent. We lost to them twice but the second time, we needed to win to really establish ourselves in the 8 and with GWS to follow. We then scraped home wins against St Kilda, Port and Brisbane despite dominating all three, and had to turn it up against the Pies. But I always look back to that round 19 loss as the catalyst for our missing the finals. As soon as the final siren rang I just knew that this was the game we would look back to. We always look back to the Pies game but it's games like Round 19 2017 and yesterday that really kill us. In 2016 we lose to Essendon and Carlton. Win those and we play finals. Last year it was North x2. This year the battle for the 8 is even tighter and we can't even beat St Kilda on the MCG, where they never play. We are now 2-6 of our last 8 at the MCG. That is not finals caliber. Not by a long margin. Let's be frank. Warning signs were there against Geelong, Brisbane and Hawthorn.

I’d be inclined to stick with Petty. Send the message: “we know that wasn’t indicative and you are better than that. Have another shot.” I think that would help his confidence. That and Frost terrifies me.

they have no feel for the game really ruining my appreciation of the game, regardless if demons playing differing interpretation, ump to ump, game to game, year to year add more umpires and the game will be just one long whistle blast 50m penalty needs to be looked at and some common sense applied

Supporting this team is dead set like being in an abusive relationship. You want to believe they've changed, you want to trust them, you convince yourself that the worst is behind you. Really you're just an effing idiot and deserve all the abuse that's comes your way.