Leaderboard

While I would agree that leadership on the field has been a struggle this year, i wouldn't say that I would include Jones as part of the problem. He single handedly pulled us over the line in a couple of games this year and we missed him as a player and leader when he was out of the team.

Makes a change from all the votes going to Jones. Pretty accurate reflection of where we are at. Few standouts and the players with the ability to give the Brownlow a shake (Oliver, Petracca) are still in the making. Viney had an injury interrupted year and would've otherwise been a strong candidate to poll the highest. Pedo was a bit unlucky to poll in only two games (I was going to say "Pedo was a bit stiff" but thought against it. Although I've done it now).

In a season where we continually fielded the top 3 or 4 youngest teams week in, week out, and to be in the finals with 5 minutes to go of the entire season, I think we have probably performed above where we are at. Might only be a level above, but still above. This season was one of the most peculiar and even seasons I remember. Yes, we definitely had some "Melbourne" losses, but we also had some very "un-Melbourne" wins. The domination of Adelaide in Adelaide, and the way we fought back and beat West Coast in Perth are two that I was unfamiliar with. The Hobart game, as frustrating as it was to lose, I just can't see how Goodwin gets the blame for this. We played well with the wind in the 2nd quarter, does anyone really think the directive in the last was to change the way we played it? The players just did a "Melbourne" thing - thinking they just stroll out and it happens. It doesn't, and it didn't. Reality is, none of us were in the huddle at 3/4 time to know what was said, but I think it's an easy way out to lay blame on the coach. Watching the Brownlow last night was good to revisit some of the bizarre results from season 17. Geelong lost to Collingwood, the Gold Coast then Essendon in consecutive weeks. Adelaide got flogged by North at the very venue that we lost to them at. Sydney lost their first 6 games, half of which were against sides that finished in the bottom 9. Just on the Sydney start to the season, they proved more than anyone just how much impact injuries to key personnel can hurt. It's no coincidence that when they got continuity in their team, and their better players were fully fit, they started performing well. We, more than a majority of teams, need a clear run with injuries, and there is without doubt a number of games that injuries cost us the game. But further to that, it wasn't just the injury list, it was when those injuries occurred that killed us. We were clearly dominating the Geelong game before Gawn went down. We had 18 fit blokes for a half when we lost to Richmond. It's not only the time of the game when we lost these guys, it's also the position they play. Injuries are part of the game, and happen to all teams, but it's easier to cover an in-game injury if it's to a mid-tier midfielder, or a wing, half forward, etc, but when it's a key player like a ruck (which happened in both the Geelong and Richmond examples), it really stretches your structures. Again, I think in these situations, the coaching staff worked admirably. I won't cover the suspensions too much, other than to say that there were 2 or 3 games that I think would've gone our way if we didn't have them. Goodwin's challenge in this area is making sure that the players continue to play on the edge, but understand how much room they have got on that edge. Goodwin easily gets a pass for mine. His next challenge in my view is to reduce the amount of "Melbourne" losses next year. I can easily think of 6 games that with an ounce of luck (whether through injury, suspension, or having those "Melbourne" moments), we should've won. We don't have to improve much for those results to go our way next year, but fortunately, Goodwin will be striving to improve more than that. I do acknowledge that all teams are in that same boat. While the pain of 2017 is still burning for me, I look forward going in to 2018 with an expectation of playing finals, and knowing that if we can get a reasonable rub of the green, that anything is possible.

And Oliver, not to be intimidated responded: Swanny would be the guy that puts stickers on apples if he didn't play AFL Oliver takes no cr-p on the field nor off the field!! Well done!

Nice of the umpires to not give Danger any votes in round 22 to ensure he didn't win and embarrass the AFL! Rnd 22 - Dangerfield: 32 disposals, 12 clearances and two goals. BOG from every other award voters. Umpires colluding is even more embarrassing than Danger winning - that it is not in the spotlight does not make it less unethical.

You watch GAJ get back to his most damaging best next year at Geelong. Nothing surer. Unless of course Viney shitmixes his shoulder again for him.

The general consensus amongst most experienced and reasonable observers seems to be that we have finally built a very talented and capable list. Sure, it has the odd hole, and it probably requires a couple of top line additions (eg, Lever, Gaff or another experienced outside mid), but it is fundamentally a very talented and well balanced list, albeit still young. With a good pre-season, our younger players having had another year under their belts, a better run with injuries, adding a couple of new players in the post season, and a better run with injuries, most commentators have us firmly in the 8 next year, if not higher. Culturally, Goodwin, McCartney and co seems also to be taking the core of this group in the right direction. The challenge will probably ultimately be keeping the core of this group together. In this context, I find it frustrating to read posts such as trade Gawn particularly given that we've just delisted Spencer and there is no sensible plan as to how we'd fill that void. It's as though we won the spoon again this year and everyone's on the table, just for the sake of it. In short, I'd like to see some calmer, more reasoned discussion. That said, I'm well aware it's a trade thread and everyone is entitled to their opinion blah blah etc.

One more year of co-captaincy.

What would Dane Swan be if he wasn't a footballer? Inmate 657.

A few things have been bugging me this season, don't get me wrong - I have enjoyed the march back to relevance - but there have been some odd missteps and frustrating emanations from the club that won't be solved by Jack Watts being traded... We all have a list of areas that go to explain why we didn't kick to extra goals over the course of the season - that is code for 'missing the finals'... My main ones are: Injuries and fluctuating form of our best 6-8 players (Jones, Gawn, Hogan, Oliver, Viney, Hibberd, Petracca, and T McDonald). The vacuum of leadership at the club The disappointing performance of the coaching staff These latter two bring into focus our fledgling coach Simon Goodwin. Coaching Performance: Tricks, a motivated group, but naivete abounds There is no doubt that he has motivated the core group of players to play a certain way; they play on with abandon, they handpass in tight spaces and trust 'the next man' to not fumble and to 'do their job.' However, this is overbalanced still and we didn't show much progress from the middle of the year to the end of the year in kicking when we were in position to. Sometimes, our forward line was not in position to make the most of a player quickly released by a chain of fantastic handballs; the player would look up and see player hurriedly running back into guarded space and/or expecting a kick so precise only 3 players on our list could hit the target. His 'trick bag' is innovative; the forwards coming off the back of the square threw teams for a loop and I look forward to more innovation and not resting on that move now that the competition has worked it out. This leads me to the forward line - it is schizophrenic - and I appreciate Goodwins ability to make changes at will if something isn't working, I felt like we had so many changes and different structures going forward that we ended up the season with nothing working. Hogan missing isn't an excuse for changing the structure. It's an excuse for that structure to work less efficiently. We would sometimes have a deep presence with smalls beside the tall, and when that didn't work we went 'fwd line is lava no one in the fwd line' with players running back into there. And there were a few setups in between there and while that is unpredictable to the oppo, it is also unpredictable to Tysons left foot... Then there were the two weeks we spent getting beaten by wind... I didn't see much of the NM game in Hobart but I saw the GWS massacre in all its gore. I wrote about it at the time - but the wind at Manuka always goes to the Kingston side pocket and that playing a man behind the football is a fact of life against a good team (the GWS respected us enough to have one in the 2nd term when they were 36 points up...), and yet we threw away our surprise 3 goal start by not only leaving our backs exposed for much of the quarter, but also by playing up the grandstand side of the ground for reasons that are yet to resonate with me. When you go up the grandstand side at Manuka, the wind is a propellant for the opposition to go through the middle of the ground and carve you up. Naivete or arrogance? I don't really care. It was the difference between being in the game and being out of it by quarter time. We had reports of similar play against NM the week before. If a team could drop a coach - those two weeks would seen Goodwin have a stint with Casey... The Vacuum of Goodwin Then there are the more complicated aspects to his persona that I wish he would address, I know he doesn't flame any bad narratives when he speaks - he hardly says anything when he speaks - but he would do well to understand that he can alter narratives for the better that might alleviate public (even if only Dees fans) pressure from certain players (Watts and Oliver come to mind, and of course Watts), prompt responses from those that should shoulder more burden than they do (outside of Watts and Tyson who is to blame for being 9th again?), and, lastly, shore up his own position and leadership (no one is that wooden, and no one that wooden leads anything for very long). Without this - we have a vacuum - Roos filled it quite easily. He would push narratives and could seem self-serving and distracting. And sometimes, that is the point; when talked about the scars and burdens of the past ad nauseum we felt like he was giving the club a continued excuse, but as he outlines in his new book - he was trying to push a creed of patience against the screed of despair that was rife internally. That helped lift the pressure of the players as they relearned how to play proper football. Goodwin seems in-cognisant of this ability, a we got a recent reminder of that with the below clip illustrating an awareness of a damaging narrative: that Watts "is the most talked about player" for someone who is not a core player, not in the leadership group, not in the coaching staff, and not in the administration. Those last points I added myself as Goodwin only stoked the narrative that Watts was worthy of all this attention after our failed 2017 by covering himself by saying he has a good relationship with Jack, mentioning the coaching staff are clear with Jack, and keeping the narrative of 'Watts = Melbourne' fermenting by giving the discussion relevance with the content and tone of his response about his contract and him staying at the club. Goodwin can come out forcefully and protect Jack Watts (or the next saviour) by shifting the focus and sharing the burden around with himself, his staff, the admin, and the leadership group that does very little leading when it comes to the burden of being the public face of the club, and the target of the ire of the club. Lewis does some and Gawn too, but years after Watts revealed himself to be nothing more than a uniquely talented role player, we are still shoving him into the coalface with little hesitation. If the rumours are true that we are shopping him around while at the same time that we are pushing him forward for cringeworthy press spots (https://au.sports.yahoo.com/afl/a/37206220/jack-watts-opens-up-on-2017-season-and-trade-talk/) - then the situation is more dire than I thought. I have heard from a good source that the interpersonal relationships at the club are good - and that gives me some solace, but I sit here and I have no idea who the leader of the club was. Last three years I could tell you who it was - for good or bad - it was Paul Roos. Oddly enough, he shielded the enigmatic blonde kid a couple times and Watts responded. But this year - I haven't heard much from the Admin so it isn't Jackson, it certainly isn't Mahoney or Bartlett. Nathan Jones has been seen and heard, but no more than previous years as captain. A novice coach doesn't have to be as good as Paul Roos - he is a great coach who helped redefine AFL in the professional era - but this novice coach needs to step up and start leading the club and driving the narratives that help his team, his players, and his club. Because, I have only seen or heard one leader since September 1 - and he might be traded next week...

To be fair, they can all run and carry.

Probably because they didn't have a [censored] clue.

Everyone on DL wanted Wines instead of Toumpas. The only people who wanted Toumpas appear to be Todd Viney and maybe his assistants at the time. It was a monumental mistake. Trengove and the GWS bloke were the best two in the draft according to every recruiter and in fact Port offered us two first rounders for pick 2 to get JT , like the Kelly deal. The GWS is not a dud as a player ( maybe as a person ) and we got Jesse for him and JT was simply cruelled by injury and an ordinary club. Again we all seem to agree that the Prendergast period really hurt the club. Plenty on here can claim that they would have drafted player x, but I am sure along with that would be some duds as well. I have said on here many times that I nearly fainted at a draft function I attended, when I was told we were taking Gysberts instead of Talia. The best thing is that we have Taylor now and he seems to know what he is doing. How many would have taken Clarry ahead of Darcy?Taylor was desperate to get Clarry and has been proved correct. Many other recruiters thought he had made a mistake. It is a tough gig and there have to be mistakes, it is part of the process. Not every draftee will play in the senior side, it is just plain impossible. I congratulate you on selecting Martin, as it has turned out you were right. Were you worried a few years ago when JT was Captain and Martin was just a player and then wanted to leave.

Well seeing as this is an umpiring thread and the Brownlow is voted by the umpires I'll have a rant. @Lucifer's Hero sums it up very well! So we have the deliberate (no votes) to Danger to avoid embarrasment of winning. Then we also have GOTY, winner being indigenous which is great as they are the real stars but there would've been 20 better goals this year, even Oliver v Adelaide & Hunts 75m torpedo into the wind were better IMO, not to mention 5-10 of Eddie Betts' goals and the best one of all IMO was Buddy's..... Then MOTY - Howe did Howe not win this? He was told to be sitting in his seat when it was announced and funny enough it was given to an Essendon player, who I think the AFL are trying to get everyone forgive after their drug cheating scandal. I even think Puopulo's mark was better than JD's! Now apparently these awards are voted by the public? But everyone at least thought Howe should have got MOTY. Which leads me suspect the AFL intervened and rigged it all. Just my thoughts, but I have no trust in the current AFL administration one bit. Gil needs to go. And all in the same week as Cotchin, captain of a participating GF team, gets off the MRP with no case to answer? When he clearly tucked his arms in, lead with his shoulder and caused concussion - if he was going for the ball adamantly he would've had his hands out to grab it, any other week during during the year he would've been rubbed out or got a fine, which would see his missing the GF...AFL wouldn't let it happen, AFL wants Richmond to win the Premiership. If Dangerfield laid his "dangerous tackle" in the Pre-lim, do you think he would be playing the GF? Yes he would. Did Andrew McGrath deserve the Rising Star ahead of Powell-Pepper or Burton? McGrath another Essendon player. James Hird to present the Norm Smith after his indiscretions? Essendon. The whole thing is getting unbearable to watch, but Gil and his puppets will call it the best season ever due to the closeness of the games, where if one watched closely, umpires evened up games themselves. The whole game needs an overhaul, but they will get away with it due to the "results." What gives me hope is maybe one day soon the AFL will want the Mighty Dees to win a premiership after a long draught, but personally, I hope we do it the hard way and our own way.

Ten talking points 1- Viney & Oliver in the precount fashion segments. All class. 2- Jack Fitzpatrick. Got his dream to go to the Brownlow 3- I hate Sportsbet & all that rubbish. Dane Swan is a total tool. 4- mark of the year ... Danihers was great. Howe’s was unbelievable and better. Deserved to win it (again) 5- Bruce Mac is very annoying. Dusty held his nerve. 6- umps hate Melbourne. Proven v Freo ... lost by 2 points in last minute No Votes 7- Daisy Pearce is a star 8- sure Martin was pick 3 and the Dees picked Scully & Trengove. But who wouldn’t at the time. We made draft bloopers but these choices were solid at the time. Unlike drafting Lucas Cook, Gysberts, Strauss etc 9- Matisse Stynes. Jimmy would be proud. She was very good. 10- Jonesy sure was BOG in the fashion stakes. Great style.

Lever and O. Mac tie in Brownlow! 1 vote each. Maybe Oscar should ask for pay equity

Still another how many months to the start of next season for us and it can't come quick enough. I think some of the stuff posted this off season is more ridiculous than anything I've seen, we made more sense when we had a common enemy...CS, Neeld, Pendergast etc. Where we finished this season is not because Jones was captain or Misson in charge of fitness. It's not leadership, or in the head. Previous drafting has been a problem but that's been done to death, we know that and it's in the process of being rectified. That's why we've had to recruit form outside, not ideal but thats the best we can do. This group will grow together and so will the leadership and experience. We're not trading big Max, Hogan is not on the trade table... We got close but weren't good enough this year, pretty simple really. Disappointing, yes but that's how it is. Some of our future gun players, the ones that win games were either not on the ground (Hogan) or still a bit up and down and learning the caper (Petracca).. Our defence needed bolstering (Lever)... We really missed Jones for those weeks he was out despite what those who seem to want to create another reality think and of course Viney was missed. Like it or not we are a young team, I know we hate to hear it but that's what we are. Our 'A' graders and elite talents are not there yet, they will be. When they reach that level and we start losing games we should win then I will agree we have leadership issues and head problems but we're not there yet. Fire away...I know this is not a popular view. It's easier to throw rocks than accept the reality.

His game was good at the absolute worst time, though. Proving a point in Round 2 means nothing if you can't play like a leader in the club's most important game for a decade. He and those around him let a second-string midfield control the game. He escapes criticism far too much.

It is interesting to remember that a year ago I laughed at the fact that at Richmond 8 players have shared some 70% of all top-ten placings in their Best and Fairest since 2010. On the one hand, it was definitely a sign of how they had failed to recruit and develop in the intervening years. Richmond's lack of depth was clearly their Achilles heel when it came to consistency or performing in finals. On the other hand, having that core quality group together, and becoming a mature and capable veteran set, gave the team a base which allowed quite a rapid transformation once the stars aligned and the enthusiastic kids and some good trade pick-ups filled the gap. Of course, it is also worth noting that without Dustin Martin, I'd probably still just be laughing at Richmond. We all would be. But what does all that mean for Melbourne? Does it mean we should stick it out with Tyson, Watts, and McDonald, recognising that even if they have their flaws, they can provide an established AFL-quality core which will become more valuable as the extra years of experience make them wiser players, calmer players, and (optimisitically) players who have corrected or learnt to minimise the impact their flaws? I would say yes. I would say it is the alternative to forever heaping pressure on kids to be the next saviour. It is always necessary to delist players who just aren't up to AFL level, or to trade players who have been clearly surpassed by others in their roles or where the relationship with the club has broken down. But the proverbial 'stalwarts' matter.

What. Ryan Griffen? The guy can't stay fit or get a game. League footy went past him about 3 years ago. Even as an unrestricted free agent, we shouldn't take him. Wouldn't even get a game with the mids we have needing to get on the park. And are people seriously discussing a Max Gawn trade? On any level? Bloody hell. Guys, just take a break. Silly season is nearly here and we can do it for real instead of making up stuff.

We agree to disagree...Jones goes missing when the heat is turned up far too often for my liking. Great Captains thrive on serious pressure

Oliver is few years away. It seems their is a bit of a seniority/personality content to the voting. Do your time or be a media darling and you get noticed. eg Pendlebury 15 votes from 16 (mostly losing) games. And Matt Crouch only 11 votes!! None of the six young guys in the Coaches Award top 10 (Merrett, Josh Kelly, Oliver, Matt Crouch, Ross or Zorko) were in the Brownlow top 10. Proves the point about seniority/personality gets the votes. Who got it wrong? The coaches know a thing or two and they have a birds eye view of the game. The Brownlow has become a media fanfare and a farce!

Watts had 6 poor games in 2017, which is not good enough, but is not 'back to his old ways' - in fact he was really damaging for a period before he did his hammy. I would argue he had more good games playing his role as he had poor games. As with most threads on Watts, the discussion quickly moves to extremes and history rewritten to back that extreme up.

in terms of those on / upgraded to senior list, i'd adjudge it more like this... high value on open market: hogan, petracca, viney, gawn, oliver, hibberd, t mac, hunt, jetta medium value on open market: salem, watts, brayshaw, hannan, weideman, o mac more value to us than on open market: jones, lewis, tyson, frost, melksham, pedersen, vince, anb, garlett, j smith little value on open market: stretch, kent, garland, vandenberg, jkh, bugg, king, kennedy, t smith, johnstone, mckenna, wagner, harmes

My Druid just unsheathed his sword.

Dead set - some of the discussion here is the stuff of nerdy 12 year olds playing Dungeons and Dragons.

shock....horror.....omg ablett just informed suns he wants to be traded..... ....and.....(you'll never guess)...... to jeelong !!@#$#$@!!

Viney is the player who pulled us over the line in 2 games this year, both when he was injured. Meth Coke and Port Games. Jones has never done that. Viney has learnt quick, he is ready

Don't judge tall forwards too early. Very few are able to set the world on fire straight away, which is why Jesse is a freak. Josh Kennedy was rubbish when he played for Carlton. Look how that turned out.

I would argue that Roos left a vacuum because others didn't step into the breach they should have stepped into. And Roos got a pass from me because of the basket case he inherited, and the list he had to transform. He truly was the greatest caretaker coach in the history of the game, and not much more.

Is this Deeluded? We have not been a soft team since 2015. The last two years have shown that you can alter your hardness at the ball and the man if you prioritise that. Those that think we 'have to get rid of players that were around in the soft old days' are misguided. Watts turned the corner in 2016 only to regress. Jones doesn't need to go anywhere. When posters write that they are referring to their own psychosis about those years - the desire for players being moved on is an attempt to remove that well of doubt about the current progress being real or not. I don't worry that the team will regress to irrelevance.

It must be hell inside your head.

Going back to the North game in Hobart it took no genius to see how the game would end wind or no wind. The weak way we play against flaky opposition is etched in stone and hasn’t changed for the past three seasons. The problem is beyond the scope of coaching, personnel and tactics. Time to sort out the leadership problem with some toughness. Firstly get rid of Jones as captain as we can’t be any worse without him leading. Give it to Viney and deputise someone else. I hope Jones will understand.

Unbelievable ‼️

With the exception of Oliver, Hibberd and Jetta the rest of demon polling isn't too far off the mark, imo. They consistently stood up and should have polled more. Other AFL gongs recognised the three as being in the very best in the AFL. However, our 5 leaders polled in a total of only 13 games (15%) of the 88 games they collectively played. (Oliver alone polled in 7). Maybe there were a few more games where the leaders should have polled but overall it is an indictment of our leadership team. This says the leaders didn't impact enough in the games they played. Note: A miscarriage of justice that Jetta, in the AA squad, did not poll a single vote!

That's because umpires have lost the ability to judge who has the most impact on a game and only see who has the most possessions.

Apparently not so simple that you have chosen to ignore that "norms" evolve over time. You are confusing norm with majority. To suggest that homosexuality is abnormal because they deviate from the norm completely ignores that homosexuality has been "normalised" in most westernised countries including Australia, with most countries legislating the right to marry someone of the same sex (Australia excluded).

"Swanny would be the guy that puts stickers on apples if he didn't play AFL," he hit back.

How good was the way Matisse Stynes spoke? At 16 she spoke with poise to a massive audience, she did her dad proud.

I think that Goodwin had a very good year from a simple win:loss perspective, but there are a few questions there. The players we lost, the injuries and suspensions, and fixturing given. The losses were "typical Melbourne" and I think it's a lockerroom thing which is why guys like Watts, Jones need to be eventually moved on. I think this was a transitioning and learning year for him and don't be surprised if we make shock moves this offseason. Also don't be surprised if we miss the finals next year and he's under pressure. I'm not convinced. End of the day this is futile. We've been building towards "sustained success" and the club is out of excuses. Literally. No more discussion of "We've improved" or "It's a journey". It's a journey for everyone and every team. It's not unique to you. Goodwin can either pretend the past 10 years haven't happened (which he does), or he can grab it, own it, and take responsibility for turning it around. I hated him saying the drought against North didn't matter. If the club doesn't make finals next year, we're looking at another clean house and rebuild. It would he so tough to sell that. You'd be looking at another members exodus. I don't think Goodwin survives if we miss next year. I'm just worried that the wheels fall off ala 2011 and we break down. Maybe it's just me but I feel like we're on the edge: either we climb high, or we fall hard.

Lol at the WTF from Howe.

Surprised Toby McLean didn't throw his head back when BT tapped his shoulder.

Winner winner, chicken dinner!

"Still in the making" is both exciting and impatiently depressing. That players tend to reach their peak at around 25-28 with few outliers, suggests that while hard work collectively will see drastic inprovement, we realistically may have to wait a few years before we're challenging in prelims and GF's with high end stars like Rance, Cotchin & Martin etc. Although if we can perfect a system next year, Oliver & Petracca could be the extremely effective disposers like Bontompelli that can lead us to an exciting momentum gathering early assault. Lets hope we're up for raising our game next year lest we fall behind others.

Perhaps we should constantly remind betting agencies to choose spokespeople responsibly.

Mrs Griffen

The hypocrisy of the reaction to Bugg's hit on Mills by Sydney players and the AFL still infuriates me.

Bingo. We have a winner!

Good to see Hoges having some fun with the boys. Lord knows he's due for a long run of better circumstances.