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Flower was a genuine superstar of the game and it's only those that either weren't born or were primary school kids when he retired that would even question his status. It was a different era with no AFL and 12 Victorian teams. At times in his career Flower was considered the best player in the league, which is why he captained his state. He was invariably named best aground or in the "best" in winning teams for the Big V. Imo, Flower should have been named on the wing in the team of the 20th century, but the fact that he was considered in the 4 for that position (along with Peter Matera) is testament to his standing. Consider that again for one moment - Flower was considered in the best 4 wingman in 100 years of footy when footy was all about positional play. Flower was inarguably the greatest goal kicking wingman of all time (40 goals from a wing one year) and in my view should have made that team. If you're not overly familiar with Flower it's probably best that you don't posit an opinion.

Robbie was Victoria's "only clear winner" in the first State of Origin game Some interesting stats and names from the same game: Another BOG for Flower in the Vics win over WA in 1980. Flower's teammates that day included Leigh Matthews, Kevin Bartlett, Wayne Schimmelbusch, Keith Greig, Southby, Templeton, Garry Wilson, Tim Watson and Bruce Doull. Plus stats of the match: Flower was Vic's best again... 1983 State of Origin South Australia 26.16.172 d Victoria 17.14.116 Goals - SA: Lindner 5, Bradley, Kernahan, Motley 3, Naley, Aish, Platten, Schneebichler 2, Thomas, Copping, McAdam. Vic: Flower 4, Daniher, Wilson 3, Madden 2, Smith, Marcou, Cunningham, Ashman, Hawker. Best - SA: Aish, Bradley, Motley, Giles, Craig, Lindner, Thomas, Rendell. Vic: Flower, Daniher, Serafini, Wilson, Rowlings, Madden. Just pipped by Southby in this one... 1980 State of Origin Victoria 15.12.102 d South Australia 12.13.85 Goals - Vic: Templeton, Bartlett 3, Moncrieff, Flower, Jess 2, Sheldon, Raines, Turner. SA: Roberts 4, McSporran 2, Cornes, Heinrich, Davies, Taylor, Phillips, James.. Best - Vic: Southby, Flower, Lee, Nankervis, Raines, Turner. SA: Cornes, Davies, phillips, McSporran, Kuhlmann, Williams. I hope some enjoy the names and memories. And remember, this was the best against the best. Flower shone. Flower was a superstar.

Hmm, Pro Dee's post a few above this one pretty much nails it. Flower was on a different level to the other players during a normal VFL (AFL) match. When you stuck him in State of Origin format he was still on a different level. As PD mentioned when the best played the best he was invariably BOG or close to it. Flower was a superstar

I am always happy to give him a break. Why? Because he is a good bloke, who tries hard and is a good club man. If he isn't up to it, the way we'd like him to be, he will get repaved when better players take his spot. He isn't commanding crazy high salary. He isn't settong a poor off field example for others. He isn't wasting his talent by not traininf hard or by partying. When Watts stops getting a game this team will have seriously improved. Until then he offers a better on field option than many other available options while at the same time offering off field value. Why the hate?

If he hasn't signed by round one, this thread will burst to 100 pages! i have it on good authority that I know nothing about whether he will sign or not. But I'll mutter stuff from time to time to make it appear like I know stuff!

If Melksham is suspended so be it. The sooner the suspension is served the better and we get it over and done with. He was a 20 year old kid at the time and probably just 'followed the leader'. Nonetheless the rules apply to him as well. From his recent interview he seems a decent young man and I would hope a year suspension would only make him more motivated to play well and repay the faith to the Dees. Clearly the club saw him as a long-term investment and not a stop-gap for a year or two. We will still get many years of football from him.

For anyone who has Fox Footy you would know that they have a whole month dedicated to the current stars of our game in the likes of Fyfe, GAJ, Franklin Hodge, Riewoldt etc.. Everey day they will have a different star with full match highlights of their best games. Every now and then il switch over and have a look as I don't mind watching our games great full gear at it. I wake up this morning gobsmacked that they have a whole day dedicated to Trent Cotchin .. spare me seriously? good player but he hasn't gotten a kick in all of Richmond's finals for the last 2 years. Goes missing when the heat goes up a notch. This is where the real stars of the game just go to another level. I also shake my head because if the likes of Cotchin can get a whole day to himself where is Bernie Vince who I rate extremely more highly then Cotchin and impacts the game more then he does. Give me the leadership and courage of Nathan Jones over Cotchin aswell. So in other words yes I think Cotchin is overated and Fox Footy have got this one wrong..

He's the only MFC person in my lifetime who has stood up to the AFL and the power clubs of the game and for that I'll always have a spot in my heart for him. He helped make us relevant and refused to let us be the pushover we have so often been.

Jack will be a much better player in a better team with a stronger midfield. He will show his worth as he gets better players around him He is not the saviour we were sold. But he is a very talented player and will help us reach finals, and win a few besides I wish him the best

A great synopsis of events of the day BB. We have a lot to thank Joe for (I still have my No Merger banner in the garage) as we do Brian Dixon and others. Unfortunately Joe tried to run MFC as his business, never really understanding we are fundamentally a sporting club with need of good business acumen in management. It's a fine and difficult balance to find and maintain but he will still be remembered as a saving grace when we needed one - and he did put his money where his mouth was.

Fantastic stuff Pro! Flower would have stood rightfully on the stage with any player to play in the modern era. As well as his brilliance he was versatile. Perhaps it was in a game against WA above but in the last quarter and with the game in the balance Victoria had no key position forwards and Flower was moved to CHF where he was opposed to Ross Glendinning. He won the match for the Vics taking Glendinning apart. He was a superstar and anyone who doesn't think it didn't see his career. I saw much of it. I started going to the footy every week where possible from about 1970 onward and reckon I saw him play on 200 or more occasions. He is clearly the best player I've seen in red and blue and the only players who come anywhere near having his level of skill and match day influence were a pre knee David Schwarz and the fruit cake who was Allen Jakovich. As good as players like Neitz, Lyon and Stynes were they didn't hold a candle to Flower.

You're most welcome

My prediction, he signs an extension with Port.

this is just a throwaway line which could be said about any star player at another club where there is the slightest whiff of indecision nobody has come up though with any specific hawks-wines connection

I'm not sure RDB's state of health is really something for discussion on a forum, except to wish him well. Respect is the word that comes to mind.

There mates no doubt. Who knows what the business connections are but my suspicion is that they are there. There are always mates clubs and the AFL and its member clubs are one big mates club. They all have a finger in the pie of mutual need, giving, receiving, and self congratulation. Ask a non footy person who has been involved in footy clubs and the ones I know are very disparaging of the culture of stratching backs that goes on within the inner circle both within clubs and between club heavyweights and the AFL. The AFL is hopelessly compromised. They should not be but that is the way. The only thing one can enjoy is the purity of the game itself but even that is being devalued by commercial need and demands by the TV networks.

So many tickets on the Titanic

AFL Chairman Mike Fitzpatrick speaks 'glowingly' of outgoing Ess Chairman, Paul Little. Believe it or not that is what the article says! http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-chairman-mike-fitzpatrick-praises-departed-essendon-chairman-paul-little-20151221-glsoff.html I find it staggering that Fitzpatrick would endorse anything/anyone at EFC over the last 3/4 years. I just don't get how the AFL cannot see the damage that has been caused to their code, their 'integrity' and what fools the AFL l look when they come out with endorsements like that. I would like, just once, for someone at the AFL to come out and strongly condemn the 'pharmacological experiment' (WADA compliant or not) and strongly condemn anyone associated with it.

Joe was never one to back away from a battle and it looks like he's going as far as he can with this one. A fascinating character in Melbourne's history. He took the opportunity to lead the fight against the merger in 1996 when approached by Brian Dixon. Whilst the official result voted in favour of the merger many argue there were such anomalies in the count we (Joe) would have challenged it in court had the Hawks not rejected the proposal and saved our bacon. I remember after the vote feeling that Joe had the opportunity to galvanize our club which he did for a time. He appointed Neale Daniher and we had some fantastic times under his leadership but by 2001 with many influential (and normal) supporters and members of his own Board dissatisfied with his leadership it all hit the fan. Joe threatened a spill of the Board mid season but thankfully that was averted and he lost the subsequent election battle with Szondy, who I backed, and who was to turn out to be the worst Chairman in recent times. Joe put a lot of money into the club but sadly his style was confrontational and controversial with his many battles with the AFL doing little to help our cause. He decided to expose our salary cap rorts (overseen by guess who - Cam Schwab) when the AFL had no interest in them causing many to question his motives. He exposed them by getting his own lawyers to audit our payments but the auditors report, as I understand it, was never tabled with the Board and his Board were unaware that he was going to have a news conference exposing the breaches. I think I'm right in saying all this but perhaps either Redleg or WJ would like to comment as I think at the time they were quite close to Joe. Of course it's all water under the bridge but as Whispering Jack has said on so many occasions - if you ignore the lessons of history you are prone to repeat them. I still believe that our greatest failing has been having Chairmen who did not necessarily have MFC as their primary motive for holding the position. Joe arguably led the rest of the field in this respect but he was a larger than life character who certainly made life interesting and promoted our club. Anyway thankfully after many years the AFL has taken control and we have a fantastic CEO and a Board who know their role and I think we can be as confident in our future now as at any time since the AFL was formed.

I would much prefer that they just have replays of the season as they did last year.......That way you don't have to watch Freo vs West Coast....Freo vs Gold Coast I hate Freo

Travis Cloke was the "superstar" the other day. I actually laughed.

Is it baffling? The government introduces a scheme involving poorly regulated subsidies for services rendered, and a litany of organisations take advantage of it until public acceptance/ignorance wears thin. Then we move onto the next. Par for the course really.

for depth obviously, dumbo edit: and coz he's jack's mate

His 3 kicks and one handball in the Grand Final were four of the best possessions I've ever seen

Sad to read of the passing of Jimmy Hill. Match of the Day was what got me interested in (English) Soccer - or if we are to be truthful, the real football. I started barracking for Man U because they were called the Devils and they wore all red (like my then VFA team Preston), I sinned and swapped teams in 1989 after a tiny article in the MFC Newsletter stating Melbourne has formed an alliance with Crystal Palace FC, stating we had reciprocal rights with supporters of either club having membership rights at the other - something I'm sure is long gone. Anyway, Palace wore red and blue and were very much an underdog - both of which appealed to be. As fate would have it within a year Palace played in their only FA Cup final ever drawing 3-3 after extra time, only to lose the replay 1-0 to Man U!!!! I have since become a fanatical follower (hence my name combining my 2 obsessions) getting up at 2am to watch them live each week and getting right shirty if they lose. They have been fantastic this season, having recruited brilliantly and finally keeping a manager for more than half a season. Importantly I see similarities with the Dees as Palace have come from an even worse position than the Dees. If you'd have told any EPL follower Palace would be a top 6 club - above the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea, Everton etc you would have been admitted. These things can happen and I backed Palace to do what they have done so far this year because I could see what was happening off field. I get the same feeling with Melbourne. They will be knocking on the door of the 8 in '16 and I'm super confident will be a finalist in 2017. I can see the day when red and blue ribbons will be tied on the AFL Premiership and the FA Cups (prefer EPL title but will settle for this) in the same year. Bucket list complete!

Unfortunately 'Chris' it seems to be the norm for major sporting bodies these days. It would be a welcome change to see a well run organisation where integrity is not just another word for spin.

About time someone in the media pointed out the absolute failings of the culture of the AFL. This is just one of the reasons I don't consider them elite in any way.

This might seem the most prudent path. Whether it's round 3 or another. Just start him with a half or so for a few games and monitor closely.No sense undoing all the hard work. He's proving to be made of stern stuff with laudable mettle. Bravo to the lad. But ease back into it son.

Richmond have how many members? 60k +? Supply and demand is behind this pure and simple. If we had that many members they'd probably have Nathan Jones and Matt Jones highlight packages on there.

Thanks Ultimate', I only get to a few sessions each preseason. I'll get to some more after the break. I'm not connected with the club apart from being a lifelong supporter and member. It gives me the opportunity to combine a couple of passions in photography and the Dees and happy to share. Hope you and your family have a joyful Christmas as well. And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all Demonlanders DCLXVI aka Six6Six

I know the point you're making and agree with it, however, it's most unfair on Yze and Robertson to be mentioned in this conversation. Over a 4 year period Yze had the most kicks in the entire AFL, he won a B&F and made AA. He'd occasionally frustrate me, but he had a fine career in anyone's language. And Russell Robertson also won a B&F, should have made AA when he kicked over 70 goals, and was 4 times leading goal kicker. He's also known as one of the games great high marks. For a player who was ultimately demoted and came back through the rookie draft he too milked the most of his God-given talents. Both players achieved 200 game milestones.

All three deserved their life membership. It's for ten years of service and it would be churlish of the club to decline giving the award because players left to play elsewhere. Fittingly, Rivers and Sylvia get their awards when they've retired from the game. In addition, if anyone has a problem with either of the two who finished elsewhere then consider that they were products of our club and, as a result, we might have contributed to their failings or perceived failings in some way.

They have been getting monitored pretty closely over the last 12 months by ASQA. Quite a few places have been doing dodgy stuff have had their VET FEE-HELP licences pulled because of these tactics. The big players have managed to get away with it, but it's changing pretty fast. The Senate introduced changes in August this year banning inducements as a direct result and more regulations have been passed recently. It's baffling it's taken this long to be honest.

- A/c was working! - Paul Roos not there. - Big round of applause from all in attendance when GB mentioned 2 year contract extension for PJ - Club was aiming internally for 7 wins this season. Didn't say they were satisfied with that, as could/should have won many more, but just that it was their target. - PJ went through financials, happy with progress. Expects profit next year in the range of $300-$400k. Provided reason for slight drop but dont remember specifics. Was something to do with extra costs related to the refurbishment of something, somewhere... - Life members presented. Rivers & the Skipper got up to speak, Sylvia absent as he had shoulder reconstruction yesterday. - Only question of note from the floor is why the AGM is being conducted a week before Christmas rather than the usual early Feb. Answer was that it is a better time of year to do it as in Feb (2016) we want to be gearing up for new season, rather than looking back. - New players introduced. Olivier is quite a bit taller than I expected. Melksham, Weed, Bugg & Olivier all did a quick interview with Goodwin. Oliver a bit like a deer in headlights. Poor fella looked very nervous. Made reference to himself being a dead ringer to Jordie McKenzie which got a good laugh. - Goodwin is a very funny man - Saty has spray painted his hair fluro orange

Col Sylvia played 157 games and kicked 129 goals for the Melbourne Football Club in probably the worst period for the footy club. (Tanking..Lack of money....Poor admin....Poor team) It is interesting that so many people love to stick the boots in to a player that did not meet their expectations. He also gave 10 years service. People say he was a party boy, lazy, injured, not up to it. It takes all types to make up a footy team or else we should just use robots. It is so easy to sit in the stands or watch on TV and think we are so much better. (usually after a few beers) So.....I say well done Col on your life membership and you are always welcome at the footy club

I spent the last six months working in this industry and left only 2 weeks ago. I left because it is the most misleading and predatory industry I have ever been a part of and didn't want a bar of it. The government set up the private education industry so that RTOs basically had a licence to print money at the expense of the young, uneducated and easily persuaded. Unlike tertiary institutions, RTOs can charge whatever they want for their courses and have access to $100,000 worth of VET FEE-HELP loans to fund courses, which the student is required to pay back HECs style. The reality is, most students will either never earn enough to pay them back or don't understand they will even be saddled with a debt. The most unbelievable statistic is only 7% students pass courses that are completed online, which is the majority. RTOs have been taking a healthy slice of government funding whether their students pass or not. The government is only really now starting to put the regulations in place to stop rip-off merchants from making a quick buck. To put it into context, one of the providers we worked with was charging $27,000 for a Diploma in IT. You could do a Bachelors at Melbourne Uni for less! Another was charging $32,000 for a "Business Mastery" course, which is just a Diploma of Business with a fancy name. Acquire Learning have a reputation for super dodgy sales tactics and making it extremely difficult for students to withdraw once they realise they've been duped. Just google 'Acquire Whirlpool' to get an idea of it. I'm happily sitting on the sidelines, now hoping the government closes up all these sharks and starts from scratch.

150 game is basically the criteria that gets you a life memberships. Regardless of what these player did in the past some of the comments are a bit uncalled for and silly. 150 games is still a mighty effort in AFL footy especially at one club now days. Well done to Riv and Col and looking forward to seeing these guys at the past players bar barracking for us in the near future.

After the siren: Wines leaves Port stranded on third base. Ashley Browne may just be trying to ruffle some feathers, but it's interesting nonetheless ... From everything I've heard with Ollie, he's a happy camper in the South-West but this will certainly spark some enquiries. Wines at Melbourne and Toumpas at the Power? #howitwasmeanttobe

don't sweat it. patience grasshoppers it's all in the bag o'meara, prestia, wines......write it down

Let's see him do two weeks of full training then assess when he will play.

The delusional one wants 2016 to be the 'year of facts'. Well for a start you let us all know what you sanctioned//authorised/encouraged/organised to be injected into the players. That would be some facts we want to hear about. And he records, James, where are they? Wow, he is simply living on another planet. I know lots of people that know him and/or who have met him. There isn't a kind word to be said by any of them about him or his wife, And according to Gil the dill at a recent function, CAS is a lot more prepared than ASADA.....

Would be amazing is Jose ends up and Man U in the short term. With LVG clearly struggling to get a win up JM might be breathing down his neck, depending on what Pep has been up to in the back ground and Simone. Liverpool have had a dip and need to get back on the winners list if they want to get back into the CPL. Great to see the Leicester getting up again and sitting on top at Christmas time.

Wines. Both of them have shown the ability to be a force in the midfield, but Wines comes without the injury baggage.

Try http://www.breakfastwithbails.com I think the book can still be purchased. I bought a copy a few days ago (see my review part 1 below)

I went along and great to see a decent crowd for December. As for the hot weather......yes hot everyone, however with all the comments about heat, anyone would think we live in the African Desert. It's Australia everybody!!!! It's summer !!!!! We live in a bloody hot country and why is everyone so damn surprised? I woke up this morning and all the media outlets are telling us how to handle the heat. FFS we are turning into a nanny society full of precious puppies. Our ancestors felled forests in 40 degree summers without going home to aircon. Pleeeeeeeeese

Get your priorities right leuco, that PhD can wait.

Obviously a hot morning at training; I went down and had a bit of a look around. Without going into detail a few things of interest to me were... Jack Trengove looks in great shape and was doing a little bit of short kicking, fingers crossed for 2016. Bernie Vince doing some hard half ground running whilst his finger heals, looking very fit is Bernie. I think some might forget that he had little to no preseason last year and despite getting the golden pass won the Bluey. A fit Vince will be even better for us in 2016. Not sure what's wrong with 'H' but he didn't seem to be doing any kicking and kept handing the ball off to Trenners. Maybe he was there as the ball boy. Dom Tyson drew the recovery short straw and had a running session with Crossy (so happy he is still around the club). I remarked a week or so back that it looked like he had a bit of a calf problem so they are handling him with care pre the break. Weideman at this stage looks like a kid, he is. I will be interested to watch his progress as we move into the new year and start of the season, his intensity is not there at the moment. If the teams were selected now he would be a way off, March could be a very different proposition. I wouldn't be as complimentary on his kicking as 'DemonTux' but I might have just seen a few of the bad ones & as I say his intensity is not there yet. Petracca is a gun, yep I know he hasn't played a game but he will do what Hogan did in 2015 and take the competition by storm. Apart from his ability he is a real character out there on the track. Oliver is another that seems to have a bit of go about him, doesn't like being beaten and seems to have settled right in.

I was there WJ and no limitations. They asked for questions and only three were asked. Have no idea what that was about.

The something something was the refurbishment of Leighoak which PJ said would cost approx $1 million (that's from memory. could be wrong)